Jesus adherents only: How is a ''separate' trinity concept, not polytheism?

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Terry;

For those early followers of Jesus there was no thought that he was god.This concept developed as the church grew but it was in competition with the views that Jesus was a prophet, or Son of God, adopted Son of God. Or simply a great teacher favoured by God.

Hmm - you should have said there - for the early followers of the RELIGIOUS "jesus" - and that might apply....BUT - to those who INTIMATELY knew YESHUA who is CHRIST - they wouold know directly that this individual IS the LIVING Divine Spirit....

As said - we cannot trust the religious version...They totally misunderstand - and the confusion was first done ON PURPOSE - THAT religion still follows the JEWISH "god" of old - and that "god" is NOT EVEN the Father that Christ taught us about !! He said adamantly and specifically that the Father He taught of NONE BEFORE HAD EVER KNOWN !! He spoke of a PRIMAL spirit that CAUSED Creation and said again adamantly and clearly that this spirit is NOT the Jewish god we call Yahweh....He explained EVERYTHING to them - PROVED His own Divine status of course, by MIRACLES that no "priests of Yahweh " could even come close to attianing and told them clearly this PRIMAL SPIRIT empowered HIM to do these things that THEY and THEIR god could not do...Your god is NOT a god at all HE told them and made that VERY CLEAR - and for that and proofs He exhibited He became a direct threat to their own power and status - so to silence His truth they MURDERED HIM and all who understand Him !! That religious god there is NOT Our Father - they have no truth of the spirit that Christ alone revealed...This Trinity issue just proves that clearly for as said go look at the ORIGINAL disciple gospels and they ALL present a definate METAPHYSICAL truth and show us clearly a fully Divine Christ with that status fully embraced and claimed by Him directly - and alongside there are direct instructions and advise too, as he explains that WE ALSO, are ALREADY Divine, yet fail to realise this about our Self.....Here is dome ORIGINAL scripture from Thomas - shows us clearly His truth :

His disciples said, "Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it." He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark."

IMPORTANT - NOT ALLEGORY - He is speaking SPECIFICALLY - He ACTUALLY means there IS a Light - a DIVINE LIGHT - literally so - I say this here so that the next quote wont confuse you (all)...He is speaking here of the ETERNAL SOUL - and elsewhere He will give instruction as to how to actually approach this state and FIND and access this Soul DIRECTLY - the method He describes is most obviously a DEEP MEDITATION where He speaks of taking the MIND deep down into a SILENT and EMPTY VOID - a state of inner Self awareness - into THIS state He says this Divine Light - the PRESENCE will show it Self and so the journey truly begins...I simply couch from direct experiences that all this He said is valid..

Yeshua said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

This Divine Light he repeatedly speaks of -NOT ALLEGORY - He is speaking of ENERGY - the very "stuff" that creation is ACTUALLY formed form - energy is MIND - the Father first recognises it Self AS this LIGHT - as this energy....hence we too need to seek out our first Self perception AS the eternal Soul..

So - your Soul is recognised as a Divine Light that will shine forth when and if you train and manage to quiet the surface mind and attempt the legitimate communion in earnest - it is ALL ABOUT MIND - all creation comes FROM a Divine MIND...He makes all this very very clear and as said explains it all most fully in these ORIGINAL disciple gospels...This Divine Light found WITHIN this secret INNER place - He says direclty is the SAME Divine Light that CAUSES ALL CREATION - I and the Father are ALREADY ONE - now you (all) must BECOME ME He said.....He clearly DOES see Himself AS the SOURCE OF CREATION - fully claims that status and tells us directly that this is our BIRTHRIGHT and inheritance :.

49. Yeshua said, "Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you will find the kingdom. For you have come from it, and you will return there again."

50. Yeshua said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established itself, and appeared in their image.'

If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.'

If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

So He says clearly here, that those who are ALONE become CHOSEN as they seek the legitimate communion as He describes it.. ALONE - in DEEP MEDITATION -elsewhere He tells them whenthey do this to go somewhere PRIVATE, to shut the door and not let the world interfere..This is a SECRET endeavour He said clearly - only YOU and YOUR MIND - NO TEMPLE WORSHIP - no rituals - no begging prayers - no repeated catechisms - EMPTY THE MIND - no priest clergy guru middleman to lead you away from this INNER Divine communion - you must come to HATE your parents He termed it didnt He - avoid all those external delusions He said and seek this SOLITARY personal INNER communion ALWAYS.....

He speaks of the SOUL as ACTUALLY BEING the Light - living CONSCIOUS ENERGY - and now He tells us very clearly that this Divine Light we contain is the SOURCE of CREATION itself - it comes into Being ALL BY ITSELF - establishes its OWN SELF fully SELF CREATED and this act of inner communion makes US to BECOME one with this Divine Light - become ONE with our ETERNAL SOUL - and beyond as the journey Home progresses to become One with the Father, without any possible seperation at all..

Be absolutely sure Folks - He IS speaking about a MIND and a meditation practice to invoke this inner Divine Presence...This is the HOLY GHOST as the religion tell it - the "comforter" that Christ promised he would "send"..It is a legitimate phenomena which any person can attain for themselves directly....Be sure it is a phenomena of MIND - for as He said - the evidence of the Father within is MOTION AND REST - this surface mind here - this part reading writing posts - forever turbulant and changing 0 forever in MOTION - must become calmed - tamed - taken down into that deep inner sanctuary - a SILENT and EMPTY VOID within - yes, such a place does exist seek it out he advises to start this legitimate communion process..The MOTION of the upper mind MUST be taken down into the REST state of that secret SILENT VOID within..This triggers a "gateway" to open within the mind -the narrow gate that not many find but that leads directly to eternal life

Do this - follow Me He said - and you will encounter first your own eternal nature, the Soul - and beyond - the Father Source of ALL creation - DIRECTLY encounter for the Self...It cannot be completed WITHIN life - even Yeshua had to die to fully claim His status - but we MUST come to his inner Self realisation before this life ends He warned...As said - i and the Father are one - now you must become like Me - He means it LITERALLY Folks - MIND causes Creation -OUR mind now is ALREADY a part of that greater Divine Mind - the realisation of this truth is all that we lack - He alone shows us this legitimate personal ciommunion - not the religion who insist we need THEM to do this for us - avoid them He warned - lead you astray always - confuse you always - seek THIS inner guide He said - the Holy Ghost - seek the Divine always until you BECOME the Divine that you ALREADY are - REALISE your Self...

"Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

Pretty clear..??...Learn His truths -BECOME HIM - without any seperation at all - literally MIND to MIND - everything HE knows is to be fully revealed to US until we become EQUAL and fully Divine as He is - as always - for those with ears to hear....

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The ''trinity doctrine'' being contentious has hardly /if anything/, to do with the thread premise question. some follow that ''doctrine'', some don't.

the thread is about the trinity concept

They didn't devise the trinity concept, they devised the trinity doctrine. There's a difference.
The devised the trinity concept and adopted it as doctrine.

disagree. The entire religious aspect concerning Jesus is that He is a God. That's the basis of the religion.

Not so ... to some he is the Son of God, and to others a enlightened teacher. To those who accept the trinity he is part of the Godhead. It is well documented that the earliest Christians did not see Jesus as God. ( see the Didache)

These don't work as ''religion'' precepts, /contextually,, especially not for the type of theism or theisms being discussed. This is not a 'non-theistic' religion, we're talking about

the subject of the thread is....
How is a ''separate' trinity concept, not polytheism? we are not discussing any particular subset of theism

Whuppty do.

I take it that means you agree

it's funny how you just ran in the trinity concept with the other things in Scripture. Yes, it's clear that you don't think much or any of it is real, right? Why not just say that outright?

We are discussing the Trinity concept, and by extension those things that support or reject that view. the early pre gospel Christians had no concept of the virgin birth nor had the yet made the connection with Jesus to the predicted Messiah.

Christianity existed quite happily before the gospels. it is true that some of those early scriptures that contradicted the Old Testament predictions, or could not be made to fit were rejected.

That's your prerogative

''details''? like what/who, and how many deities you might or might not worship? I'm not sure those are ''details'', considering that the entire premise is concerning ones theistic position regarding the 'trinity'

As theists we all worship God. The Trinity gives one explanation of how God Jesus and the Holy spirit coexist as God, to overcome the the problem of a polytheistic view of Christianity.

My point was that I have no problem with a polytheistic view of Christianity. But that I prefer a Unitarian view where Jesus is the son or adopted son of God

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Hi Folks..

Terry;

Hmm - you should have said there - for the early followers of the RELIGIOUS "jesus" - and that might apply....BUT - to those who INTIMATELY knew YESHUA who is CHRIST - they wouold know directly that this individual IS the LIVING Divine Spirit....

As said - we cannot trust the religious version...They totally misunderstand - and the confusion was first done ON PURPOSE - THAT religion still follows the JEWISH "god" of old - and that "god" is NOT EVEN the Father that Christ taught us about !! He said adamantly and specifically that the Father He taught of NONE BEFORE HAD EVER KNOWN !! He spoke of a PRIMAL spirit that CAUSED Creation and said again adamantly and clearly that this spirit is NOT the Jewish god we call Yahweh....He explained EVERYTHING to them - PROVED His own Divine status of course, by MIRACLES that no "priests of Yahweh " could even come close to attianing and told them clearly this PRIMAL SPIRIT empowered HIM to do these things that THEY and THEIR god could not do...Your god is NOT a god at all HE told them and made that VERY CLEAR - and for that and proofs He exhibited He became a direct threat to their own power and status - so to silence His truth they MURDERED HIM and all who understand Him !! That religious god there is NOT Our Father - they have no truth of the spirit that Christ alone revealed...This Trinity issue just proves that clearly for as said go look at the ORIGINAL disciple gospels and they ALL present a definate METAPHYSICAL truth and show us clearly a fully Divine Christ with that status fully embraced and claimed by Him directly - and alongside there are direct instructions and advise too, as he explains that WE ALSO, are ALREADY Divine, yet fail to realise this about our Self.....Here is dome ORIGINAL scripture from Thomas - shows us clearly His truth :



IMPORTANT - NOT ALLEGORY - He is speaking SPECIFICALLY - He ACTUALLY means there IS a Light - a DIVINE LIGHT - literally so - I say this here so that the next quote wont confuse you (all)...He is speaking here of the ETERNAL SOUL - and elsewhere He will give instruction as to how to actually approach this state and FIND and access this Soul DIRECTLY - the method He describes is most obviously a DEEP MEDITATION where He speaks of taking the MIND deep down into a SILENT and EMPTY VOID - a state of inner Self awareness - into THIS state He says this Divine Light - the PRESENCE will show it Self and so the journey truly begins...I simply couch from direct experiences that all this He said is valid..



This Divine Light he repeatedly speaks of -NOT ALLEGORY - He is speaking of ENERGY - the very "stuff" that creation is ACTUALLY formed form - energy is MIND - the Father first recognises it Self AS this LIGHT - as this energy....hence we too need to seek out our first Self perception AS the eternal Soul..

So - your Soul is recognised as a Divine Light that will shine forth when and if you train and manage to quiet the surface mind and attempt the legitimate communion in earnest - it is ALL ABOUT MIND - all creation comes FROM a Divine MIND...He makes all this very very clear and as said explains it all most fully in these ORIGINAL disciple gospels...This Divine Light found WITHIN this secret INNER place - He says direclty is the SAME Divine Light that CAUSES ALL CREATION - I and the Father are ALREADY ONE - now you (all) must BECOME ME He said.....He clearly DOES see Himself AS the SOURCE OF CREATION - fully claims that status and tells us directly that this is our BIRTHRIGHT and inheritance :.



So He says clearly here, that those who are ALONE become CHOSEN as they seek the legitimate communion as He describes it.. ALONE - in DEEP MEDITATION -elsewhere He tells them whenthey do this to go somewhere PRIVATE, to shut the door and not let the world interfere..This is a SECRET endeavour He said clearly - only YOU and YOUR MIND - NO TEMPLE WORSHIP - no rituals - no begging prayers - no repeated catechisms - EMPTY THE MIND - no priest clergy guru middleman to lead you away from this INNER Divine communion - you must come to HATE your parents He termed it didnt He - avoid all those external delusions He said and seek this SOLITARY personal INNER communion ALWAYS.....

He speaks of the SOUL as ACTUALLY BEING the Light - living CONSCIOUS ENERGY - and now He tells us very clearly that this Divine Light we contain is the SOURCE of CREATION itself - it comes into Being ALL BY ITSELF - establishes its OWN SELF fully SELF CREATED and this act of inner communion makes US to BECOME one with this Divine Light - become ONE with our ETERNAL SOUL - and beyond as the journey Home progresses to become One with the Father, without any possible seperation at all..

Be absolutely sure Folks - He IS speaking about a MIND and a meditation practice to invoke this inner Divine Presence...This is the HOLY GHOST as the religion tell it - the "comforter" that Christ promised he would "send"..It is a legitimate phenomena which any person can attain for themselves directly....Be sure it is a phenomena of MIND - for as He said - the evidence of the Father within is MOTION AND REST - this surface mind here - this part reading writing posts - forever turbulant and changing 0 forever in MOTION - must become calmed - tamed - taken down into that deep inner sanctuary - a SILENT and EMPTY VOID within - yes, such a place does exist seek it out he advises to start this legitimate communion process..The MOTION of the upper mind MUST be taken down into the REST state of that secret SILENT VOID within..This triggers a "gateway" to open within the mind -the narrow gate that not many find but that leads directly to eternal life

Do this - follow Me He said - and you will encounter first your own eternal nature, the Soul - and beyond - the Father Source of ALL creation - DIRECTLY encounter for the Self...It cannot be completed WITHIN life - even Yeshua had to die to fully claim His status - but we MUST come to his inner Self realisation before this life ends He warned...As said - i and the Father are one - now you must become like Me - He means it LITERALLY Folks - MIND causes Creation -OUR mind now is ALREADY a part of that greater Divine Mind - the realisation of this truth is all that we lack - He alone shows us this legitimate personal ciommunion - not the religion who insist we need THEM to do this for us - avoid them He warned - lead you astray always - confuse you always - seek THIS inner guide He said - the Holy Ghost - seek the Divine always until you BECOME the Divine that you ALREADY are - REALISE your Self...



Pretty clear..??...Learn His truths -BECOME HIM - without any seperation at all - literally MIND to MIND - everything HE knows is to be fully revealed to US until we become EQUAL and fully Divine as He is - as always - for those with ears to hear....

I have never doubted that some of the earliest Christians were Gnostics and that Mary Magdalene was likely amongst their number. It was also their view that Jesus was himself a gnostic. I have no Idea what most of their doctrine was, as little has survived, and had to be rediscovered from the few writings that exist.
I rather doubt it has much bearing on the various arguments between mainline Christians.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Terry; that above is a rough outline of CHRIST "doctrine" - the things HE said and taught DIRECTLY....

As we see - immediately and clearly - this is RADICALLY different to the "religious jesus" - TOTALLY different from the mainstream we have today...RELIGION still follows the old JEWISH god we know as Yahweh -still to this day the christian religion follows THAT god - even though Christ DIRECTLY taught that one was fraud and a trickster and as said for THIS TRUTH they MURDERED HIM to silence His direct threat...

Religious christians are wholly duped by all this - the bible contains very scant truth of Christ at all and that is because it has ALWAYS been those same group in power - pharisees - religious authority - KEEPING POWER FOR THEMSELVES...The modern christian religion arose OUT OF the Jewish faith AFTER Christ made His startling revelation and literally split the Jewish faith apart...As the new forming religion(s) - there were MANY - were emerging ALREADY the TRUTH of Christ was being wiped out as Jews hunted down and murdered the TRUE Christians who right at the start may have had SOME legitimate truth - but NONE OF THEM knew Christ directly or as the jews had already had Him murdered and so His direct teachng already stopped...

Some previously JEWISH clergy formed the new emerging "christian" churches and of course their beliefs were rooted firmly in their old culture and THAT god....This hunting down and eradicating truth - infighting - power struggle continued for THREE CENTURIES until ROME intervened made them all play nicely and literally invented, made up and MANUFACTURED the standard "christian bible" that they all must now adopt as "truth"........The "christian religion" is little more than a farce - a definate fraud...

After Rome took control there was an all out effort and the persecution of Christ truth continued with great zeal and Rome turned its MILITARY might to conquering nation after nation all under this conveniant "spiritual directive"....They simply could not allow Christ truth to become established for as we see clearly - NO PRIEST clergy middleman or institution is needed - such things are a HINDERANCE to be avoided - once Christ truth is established we simply do no need a religion at all - it becomes OBSOLETE - and so they hunted down tortured murdered always - all in a n effort to silence Christ and keep their own power and status secure...The ROMAN "catholic church" literally went all over the world destroying original truth - killing any and all who may understand any of this - destroying ALL spiritual truth - and replacing it the world over with their bogus twisted version "catholic doctrine" that they then FORCED upon us all as the ONLY truth permitted...Undeniable !!

That god of that religion is NOT OUR FATHER and I can show Christ saying this repeatedly and clearly beyond any doubt at all...

 

[Kenny]

It does not take much reading to see that all these positions were contentious even after the new Testament was compiled.

It doesn't take much reading to see that the positions of Jesus was contentious even before they accumulated the letters written later.

It is also quite clear that positions were defended and promoted by quite large factions, with a great deal of political as well as religious argument.

Yes... when politics are religiosity gets involved... we have a problem. However, today we can read without political views. And yet still have arguments.

Clearly the winning side always said that they were guided by God, and later also by the Bible.

I would say it differently. Clearly truth ended as the winning side. The words of Jesus are truth and we hold the position that His words are part of the Bible.

much of the position taking, took place long before any new testament writings were available, let alone compiled into a single book.

Yes... we can find the NT within the portion that we (Christians) call the OT. Jesus preached from it as did the disciples and Paul. That's an easy way to know if something is Biblical... is it in harmony with the OT.

The bishops were locked up in the emperor's hospitality, until they came to an agreement at Nicea, the losers were declared Heretics.... not very Holy in my eyes.
The scriptures were selected for their adherence to their agreed beliefs.Not the other way round. No wonder they support their dogma.

Heretic: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine Merriam - Webster.

JUB Titus 3:
9 But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and contentions and debates concerning the law, for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject him,
11 knowing that he that is such is subverted and sins, being condemned of his own judgment.

Heretic isn't a new word - I think we have tainted it with "burning at the stake". In the purest sense, it simply means that one dissents from an accepted belief. Doesn't mean that he is an evil person.

 

[Kenny]

I have never doubted that some of the earliest Christians were Gnostics and that Mary Magdalene was likely amongst their number. It was also their view that Jesus was himself a gnostic. I have no Idea what most of their doctrine was, as little has survived, and had to be rediscovered from the few writings that exist.
I rather doubt it has much bearing on the various arguments between mainline Christians.

I would disagree with most of your opinions .

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Hi Folks..

Terry;

Hmm - you should have said there - for the early followers of the RELIGIOUS "jesus" - and that might apply....BUT - to those who INTIMATELY knew YESHUA who is CHRIST - they wouold know directly that this individual IS the LIVING Divine Spirit....

As said - we cannot trust the religious version...They totally misunderstand - and the confusion was first done ON PURPOSE - THAT religion still follows the JEWISH "god" of old - and that "god" is NOT EVEN the Father that Christ taught us about !! He said adamantly and specifically that the Father He taught of NONE BEFORE HAD EVER KNOWN !! He spoke of a PRIMAL spirit that CAUSED Creation and said again adamantly and clearly that this spirit is NOT the Jewish god we call Yahweh....He explained EVERYTHING to them - PROVED His own Divine status of course, by MIRACLES that no "priests of Yahweh " could even come close to attianing and told them clearly this PRIMAL SPIRIT empowered HIM to do these things that THEY and THEIR god could not do...Your god is NOT a god at all HE told them and made that VERY CLEAR - and for that and proofs He exhibited He became a direct threat to their own power and status - so to silence His truth they MURDERED HIM and all who understand Him !! That religious god there is NOT Our Father - they have no truth of the spirit that Christ alone revealed...This Trinity issue just proves that clearly for as said go look at the ORIGINAL disciple gospels and they ALL present a definate METAPHYSICAL truth and show us clearly a fully Divine Christ with that status fully embraced and claimed by Him directly - and alongside there are direct instructions and advise too, as he explains that WE ALSO, are ALREADY Divine, yet fail to realise this about our Self.....Here is dome ORIGINAL scripture from Thomas - shows us clearly His truth :



IMPORTANT - NOT ALLEGORY - He is speaking SPECIFICALLY - He ACTUALLY means there IS a Light - a DIVINE LIGHT - literally so - I say this here so that the next quote wont confuse you (all)...He is speaking here of the ETERNAL SOUL - and elsewhere He will give instruction as to how to actually approach this state and FIND and access this Soul DIRECTLY - the method He describes is most obviously a DEEP MEDITATION where He speaks of taking the MIND deep down into a SILENT and EMPTY VOID - a state of inner Self awareness - into THIS state He says this Divine Light - the PRESENCE will show it Self and so the journey truly begins...I simply couch from direct experiences that all this He said is valid..



This Divine Light he repeatedly speaks of -NOT ALLEGORY - He is speaking of ENERGY - the very "stuff" that creation is ACTUALLY formed form - energy is MIND - the Father first recognises it Self AS this LIGHT - as this energy....hence we too need to seek out our first Self perception AS the eternal Soul..

So - your Soul is recognised as a Divine Light that will shine forth when and if you train and manage to quiet the surface mind and attempt the legitimate communion in earnest - it is ALL ABOUT MIND - all creation comes FROM a Divine MIND...He makes all this very very clear and as said explains it all most fully in these ORIGINAL disciple gospels...This Divine Light found WITHIN this secret INNER place - He says direclty is the SAME Divine Light that CAUSES ALL CREATION - I and the Father are ALREADY ONE - now you (all) must BECOME ME He said.....He clearly DOES see Himself AS the SOURCE OF CREATION - fully claims that status and tells us directly that this is our BIRTHRIGHT and inheritance :.



So He says clearly here, that those who are ALONE become CHOSEN as they seek the legitimate communion as He describes it.. ALONE - in DEEP MEDITATION -elsewhere He tells them whenthey do this to go somewhere PRIVATE, to shut the door and not let the world interfere..This is a SECRET endeavour He said clearly - only YOU and YOUR MIND - NO TEMPLE WORSHIP - no rituals - no begging prayers - no repeated catechisms - EMPTY THE MIND - no priest clergy guru middleman to lead you away from this INNER Divine communion - you must come to HATE your parents He termed it didnt He - avoid all those external delusions He said and seek this SOLITARY personal INNER communion ALWAYS.....

He speaks of the SOUL as ACTUALLY BEING the Light - living CONSCIOUS ENERGY - and now He tells us very clearly that this Divine Light we contain is the SOURCE of CREATION itself - it comes into Being ALL BY ITSELF - establishes its OWN SELF fully SELF CREATED and this act of inner communion makes US to BECOME one with this Divine Light - become ONE with our ETERNAL SOUL - and beyond as the journey Home progresses to become One with the Father, without any possible seperation at all..

Be absolutely sure Folks - He IS speaking about a MIND and a meditation practice to invoke this inner Divine Presence...This is the HOLY GHOST as the religion tell it - the "comforter" that Christ promised he would "send"..It is a legitimate phenomena which any person can attain for themselves directly....Be sure it is a phenomena of MIND - for as He said - the evidence of the Father within is MOTION AND REST - this surface mind here - this part reading writing posts - forever turbulant and changing 0 forever in MOTION - must become calmed - tamed - taken down into that deep inner sanctuary - a SILENT and EMPTY VOID within - yes, such a place does exist seek it out he advises to start this legitimate communion process..The MOTION of the upper mind MUST be taken down into the REST state of that secret SILENT VOID within..This triggers a "gateway" to open within the mind -the narrow gate that not many find but that leads directly to eternal life

Do this - follow Me He said - and you will encounter first your own eternal nature, the Soul - and beyond - the Father Source of ALL creation - DIRECTLY encounter for the Self...It cannot be completed WITHIN life - even Yeshua had to die to fully claim His status - but we MUST come to his inner Self realisation before this life ends He warned...As said - i and the Father are one - now you must become like Me - He means it LITERALLY Folks - MIND causes Creation -OUR mind now is ALREADY a part of that greater Divine Mind - the realisation of this truth is all that we lack - He alone shows us this legitimate personal ciommunion - not the religion who insist we need THEM to do this for us - avoid them He warned - lead you astray always - confuse you always - seek THIS inner guide He said - the Holy Ghost - seek the Divine always until you BECOME the Divine that you ALREADY are - REALISE your Self...



Pretty clear..??...Learn His truths -BECOME HIM - without any seperation at all - literally MIND to MIND - everything HE knows is to be fully revealed to US until we become EQUAL and fully Divine as He is - as always - for those with ears to hear....

This is fun answer but to make you think?
What do you think Paul actually said to Nero?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I would disagree with most of your opinions .

Have you red the Gospel of Mary?

as to disagreeing with my views... that is what I would expect of an orthodox old testament type Christian.

 

[Kenny]

Have you red the Gospel of Mary?

as to disagreeing with my views... that is what I would expect of an orthodox old testament type Christian.

As I would expect from an orthodox gnostic follower that you would disagree with me?

I have no problem with you holding a personal viewpoint but I think it is important that we establish "that Mary Magdalene was one of them" is definitely an opinion held by some but hardly verifiable and, IMO, very doubtful.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

As I would expect from an orthodox gnostic follower that you would disagree with me?

I have no problem with you holding a personal viewpoint but I think it is important that we establish "that Mary Magdalene was one of them" is definitely an opinion held by some but hardly verifiable and, IMO, very doubtful.

I am not at all a gnostic, but I accept that during the early days of Christianity they had a substantial following. Sufficient for their oponents to make a very thorough job of eliminating both them and a vast majority of their scripture. They had no doubt that Mary Magdelen was of their number and shared secrets with Jesus.

As the Apostle to the Apostles Mary was held in high regard by all the early Christians.
It is interesting that this is now recognised by the Roman church.

 

[Kenny]

I am not at all a gnostic, but I accept that during the early days of Christianity they had a substantial following. Sufficient for their oponents to make a very thorough job of eliminating both them and a vast majority of their scripture. They had no doubt that Mary Magdelen was of their number and shared secrets with Jesus.

That Gnosticism existed? There is no doubt. That it holds a separate viewpoint that the earlier Apostolic writings? Obviously. That is was written by Mary Magdalen? In much dispute as the timeframe it is currently believed it was written would make her one of the oldest woman known to live in those days (120+). That those writings weren't accepted and thus called heretical? Logical. It violated much of scripture that is considered to be the standard.

As the Apostle to the Apostles Mary was held in high regard by all the early Christians.
It is interesting that this is now recognised by the Roman church.

It hasn't been recorded that Mary Magdalene was considered to be an Apostle. Source?
Recognized by the Roman Church? Don't know. Source? Regardless, the Roman Catholic Church has had to correct many positions as people become educated with scripture.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That Gnosticism existed? There is no doubt. That it holds a separate viewpoint that the earlier Apostolic writings? Obviously. That is was written by Mary Magdalen? In much dispute as the timeframe it is currently believed it was written would make her one of the oldest woman known to live in those days (120+). That those writings weren't accepted and thus called heretical? Logical. It violated much of scripture that is considered to be the standard.


It hasn't been recorded that Mary Magdalene was considered to be an Apostle. Source?
Recognized by the Roman Church? Don't know. Source? Regardless, the Roman Catholic Church has had to correct many positions as people become educated with scripture.

You must keep up... Pope Francis raised the status of her feast to the same as the other Apostles ònly a few weeks ago, officially as the Apostle to the Apostles. Recognising what had been believed for centuries.

In the same way as most other scripture is incorrectly dedicated, so the gospel of Mary was not thought to be written by her. The fact we have little idea who these authors were, has not deminished their authenticity, as scripture.
If you read what remains of her gospel you will see it is a narrative about her, not an autobiography.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Hmmm - just to clarify - there IS a legitimate and fully authentic "Gnostic Way" or Gnostic path - and that path was indeed taught and advocated by Christ directly, making Him essentially a "gnostic".....BUT - for sure - there is no such thing as a "gnostic religion" - CANNOT EVER BE such an institutionalised formalised religion - for to structure it that way would actually negate and destroy fully, the very essence and intent of the Gnostic Way itself...

Stressed for utmost importance - there is to be NO MIDDLEMAN TEACHER GURU PRIEST INTERMEDIARY - I and the Father are ALREADY One - now (you all) BECOME ME He said...THIS is the essential Gnostic endeavour - to first encounter this living Divine spirit found WITHIN the Silent Mind - and then to go beyond and realise that spirit as the Source of All Creation..

He taught us of a legitimate Source and Cause for CREATION itself - and of course, taught those with the ears to hear, precisely how to find and commune with this force directly...This Primal Spirit He names as Our Father - It is found EVERYWHERE He said through out the enitre Creation for it is the foundational ENERGY - Light - but can only be directly accessed through an INWARD process of Self reflection - this He assures will allow a new PRESENCE of MIND to begin to mature, a new SPIRITUAL SELF and eternal nature (Soul) to become REALISED - and as the religion will confusingly say the person will become "born again"... Christ means it EXPLICITLY and LITERALLY - a new PRESENCE OF MIND that is actually now the WHOLE mind developed by this deep INNER meditation...

All this is ESSENTIALLY GNOSTIC - seek ALWAYS this INNER living Divine spirit He said...THIS is the Gnostic Way...See then as stressed above - and as Christ clearly warned repeatedly - do not use ANY MIDDLEMAN !!! - They can only hinder you in this endeavour because the journey is an INNER process of Self discovery that leads to an outer direct Divine experience.. Christ actually explains it all fully - but for here I will say - Creation flows from the Divine Mind of Our Father - it first comes forth from a state of SILENT and VOID existance - and so too, we individually must likewise take OUR Mind down into an inner state of SILENT and VOID "emptyness".. Here in this deep inner secret silent place, He promises - and I vouch His truth - this "spirit" and new Presence will become known - the Light of All Creation will be realised...This Folks - is the HOLY GHOST - and once this becomes established so the true journey Home begins..This first step is essential and is wholly a Gnostic pursuit..

So we see now why His warning to avoid public, fomalised institutional type religion and temple worship is a complete NO NO He said..Indeed - stressed it most strongly time and time again as I do - come away from the temple - DAMN the Pharisees who neither know this truth nor give truth freely - you must come to HATE YOUR PARENTS (the truths they hold and teach) for their "god" is NOT MY FATHER He said very clearly as He taught this legitimate spiritual practice - the Way and ONLY way He said - and this is the essence of the legitimate Gnostic pursuit...

Shun the temple - quit babbling like pagans - no more useless begging prayers - no more long repeated phrases - no bowing down fawning worship - NONE of it He said...STOP IT ALL - useless hinderance - not a tool that helps but actually an obstacle to definatlly avoid He said....Go alone somewhere PRIVATE - shut the door - do not let your left hand know what the right hand does - a PUBLIC religion to avoid as it is totally OPPOSITE and contrary to this legitimate inner Gnostic pursuit - it is a SECRET endeavour for the journey is INWARDS always, of the Mind.....Let it sink in.....You ALONE make this attempt to commune DIRECTLY mortal Mind here to Divine mind Source of All - that is the INTENT - the place of this communion is a deep secret SILENT VOID found below the turmoil of the "waking mind" -I saaure you it does exist.....

See then - the religion - the formal teaching - the doctrine - especially the heirachy - but essentially ALL of it EXTERNAL and from the source of MAN taught BY man - is a total useless hinderance to this Gnostic endeavour - FILLS the mind with "teaching" and so keep s the focus anchored HERE at the surface always - when actually all along the intetn and necessity is EMPTY the mind and approach this place of void silence deep within....Complete opposite contrary methods !!

To follow religion to follow man - to follow guru or teacher - is to miss entirely the legitimate inner communion as taught by Christ - as focus is held here at surface paying attention to the "other" external source, when really the VITAL necessity is for that focus to be take deep DEEP within to encounter this legitimate void silent state and so allow this Divine Presence to come forth...The process actually INVITES the Holy Ghost in a quite literal manner, ALLOWS it to become established and Christ said this is the very first step and is ESSENTIAL.... So essential that He indeed told us in strong terms - we need to HATE OUR PARENTS and give up their ways entirely in order to realise HIS truth - not the same "god" at all...

NO RELIGION NEEDED - it is a direct obstacle - a trap...NO PRIEST GURU TEACHER middleman -they are a hindrance - no matter how complete their knowledge, just by the act of paying attention there to them, we are already led off track from our own truth and sabotaging our own Gnostic pursuit.. Seek ALWAYS this inner guide He asid -follow THAT and that alone for only that knows legitimate truth He said clearly...It cannot be stressed eough...Absolutely NO PUBLIC FORMAL INSTITUTE OR RELIGION - gnostics seek the LIVING EXPERIENCE of the Divine - the DIRECT COMMUNION this mortal mind with that Divine Mind that is Source...

I and the Father - are ALREADY ONE - now you others BECOME ME He said.....See what happened then - H ePROVED His Divine claims with of course things we call "miracles" - but crucial here - NO PRIEST OF THE GOD YAHWEH COULD DO THESE THINGS !!

OOPS - the religion is is big trouble now - here is a man Christ - doing wonderous Divine feats openly without any preperation or ceremony at all - without any "sacrifice" or payment at all - just the Will of His Divine Mind and perhaps a spoken Word of Intent......And here He is OPENLY TEACHING people that EVERYONE can do this eventually and openly telling people the religion is a sham to be avoided - and directly teaching all this metaphysical truth as said to those with the ears to hear......

He became a direct threat of course - so the first step is as we know - the religous authority MURDER Him to immediately silence His truth...Then, as we also know they hunt down and likewise silence all His followers....As the hundreds of new sects arose inthe first few centuries after this - it soon became a case where some knew legitimate truth - parts of - some knew none - FEW knew His intimate truth - and yet ALL of its was still intermeshed fully with OLD Jewish truth as they tried and struggled to comprehend the NEW teachnig of Christ and it NEW and LEGITIMATE spirit of creation that Christ alone spoke of.....This led to centuries of infighting as all thes enew sects vied for spiritual dominance... Out of all this eventually Rome will step in to stop the fightnig and will basically create and dictate a NEW "christian religion" and will FORCE them all to adopt a standardised doctrine..

And yet the phenomena itself - the TRUTH and Way and method to commune DIRECTLY still remained known - and is always a DIRECT THREAT to the religion - for as we see now - those with ears to hear - those who attempt and succeed to invoke this Presence - simply DO NOT NEED A RELIGION AT ALL and immediately the religon will lose its self professed authority over us.. Know THIS truth He said and it will set yuo FREE come to understand Christ and we see religion has already become OBSOLETE for each INDIVIDUALLY will commune DIRECTLY - mortal mind to Divine mind and there is no need for any intermediary ever...

See now then the religion could not allow Christ truth to remain so they murdered Him - they could not allow it to spread so they murdered His followers - they could not allow the public to know the truth of this Holy Spirit so they TWISTED it to suit their own needs then systematicalyl went around the world literally wiping out spiritual knowledge, fully forbidding it all and replacing it all with manufactured "catholic doctrine" agenda of domination....

Instead of a Divine gift allowing direct communion for EVERYONE - the religion hijcked the truth and turned the Holy Ghost phenomena into something beyond the reach of common man who they say is LOST and HOPELESS "sinner" unworthy of direct Divine communion - and so they insist absolutely that we NEED the religion to intercede on our behalf as they ARE worthy and only they have the Holy Ghost...

It is a LEGITIMATE PHENOMENA Folks - and they cannot allow us to have its truth or they will become immediatly obsolete !!... So - they hunted tortured murdered any and all who had any form of legitimate spiritual knowledge - spent centuries doing this as they established their power.. Part of that - to justify their never ending violence - they literally INVENTED the "gnostic heretic" and presented it as if it was a rival religion, a formal institute such as theirs is - but it NEVER was a formal religion at all and as I explain above it can NEVER BE a formal religion in that manner at all EVER, for that would fully negate the Gnostic endeavour by destroying its very foundational premsise...

I and the Father are One - become Me - no priest or guru can show you how to do this for it is an INNER journey of Self discovery - find the Presence within - bring it forth here and now - save your Self - this is what He actually said - in plain English now - for those with ears to hear...

 

[Kenny]

You must keep up... Pope Francis raised the status of her feast to the same as the other Apostles ònly a few weeks ago, officially as the Apostle to the Apostles. Recognising what had been believed for centuries.

You have nailed the problem right on the head. When men raise to status in complete contradiction to what Jesus said--always creates contention. "While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother. Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

In the same way as most other scripture is incorrectly dedicated, so the gospel of Mary was not thought to be written by her. The fact we have little idea who these authors were, has not deminished their authenticity, as scripture.

There is a big difference. We have thousands of the Gospels in dozens of languages and almost nothing with Mary (Greek and Coptic). The Gospels, etc, have continuity that is found from the OT. I'm not saying that the Gospel of Mary doesn't have truth... but where it violates scripture, it is thrown out. You could say that is why they threw all of it out in the 2nd century--not because it didn't have truth but because the whole of it wasn't.

If you read what remains of her gospel you will see it is a narrative about her, not an autobiography.

OK

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Ken; Whats this - gospels as "truth"..???....

Im sure you (all) realise - the new testemant gospels that bare the disciples names - Matt Mark Luke John - are not ACTUALLY written by the disciples themselves directly - nor are they written by ANYBODY who knew the disciples or Yeshua directly...Nobody writing the new testemant is a direct witness to any events they report as "truth" - those gospels were literally manufactured to order, some four centuries later and all this is fully admitted by the catholic authority themselves of course - but if any doubt - if any think it is the disciples writing there and so are fooled into thinking that is their truth there - then please go and read them carefully - the last few verses of each give clear admissions that this is someone ELSE writing and NOT the disciple whose name the gospel may bare...

Compared to the ORIGINAL gospels - those we nowadays term GNOSTIC for as said the religion lumped all this together to make up the "gnostic enemy" - and we see the originals ARE CLAIMED DIRECTLY by the disciples who say up front page 1 who is writng and why...For instance - John - has a couple of gospels ordained as canon a gospel in his name and revelations also ATTRIBUTED to him....He himself DOES NOT CLAIM AUTHORSHIP - does NOT say at the start "it is I john and Iam writing because.........etc etc" - nothing like is stated - indeed - NONE of the canon are claimed BY the disciples directly - and that is because these books are MANUFACTURED - FRAUDS - like cut n paste remakes - made up from HUNDREDS of PRE EXISTANT manuscripts that WERE written by such direct first hand witnesses as the disciples..

John especially is interesting here - he has as said an ORIGINAL gospel - claimed opening lines, tells us YES it is John the disciple and tells us WHY he is writing.. Then goes on to reveal a direct full on spiritual encounter a true Revelation fromth erisen Christ....he is shown EVERYTHING start to finish - and yet, this gospel is the one that is banned as "herasy" even though it contains Christ DIRECT full truth and even though it is claimed by John himself directly....The bible canon version simply can not match this legitamacy at all for as said the catholic authority fully admits they dont know who the actual authors are as the canon ARE made up from all those pre existant tomes on the orders of Constantine..

This means of course the new testamant is wholly a religious agenda - and can and does say whatever they want and need it to say - a twisting of truth to suit their own purpose - as offered the Holy Ghost MISinformation is an obvious example of this chicanery and manipulation..

Much better where possible to go DIRECT to source - such as the ORIGINAL disciple gospels which are again freely available for the world to read thanks to this marvelous modern internet.. If we want TRUTH then it is NOT to be found in the new testemant - that is only a partial and very manipulated, twisting of truth - the original meaning and intent of Christs legitimate teaching is made very clear to see in the original and legitimate gospels of His diciples..

 

[Kenny]

Hi Folks...

Terry; that above is a rough outline of CHRIST "doctrine" - the things HE said and taught DIRECTLY....

As we see - immediately and clearly - this is RADICALLY different to the "religious jesus" - TOTALLY different from the mainstream we have today...RELIGION still follows the old JEWISH god we know as Yahweh -still to this day the christian religion follows THAT god - even though Christ DIRECTLY taught that one was fraud and a trickster and as said for THIS TRUTH they MURDERED HIM to silence His direct threat...

I'm sorry, Pete. On the surface, these seems completely off base. I didn't answer everything because it would be too long.

If God doesn't change, how is Yahweh changed to a new god?

In the possibility that I am a "mainstream" believer (I don't know what standard you are using for the statement), why is what I understand wrong?

If scripture tells us that no one took His life but freely gave Himself up as a ransom for us all, what does "silencing His direct threat" have anything to do with the Gospel?

Is it possible that the reason Gnosticism was thrown out as heretical because of reasons like unto these?

Religious christians are wholly duped by all this -

Why could I not say you are the one wholly duped?

 

[Kenny]

Hi Folks..

Ken; Whats this - gospels as "truth"..???....

Im sure you (all) realise - the new testemant gospels that bare the disciples names - Matt Mark Luke John - are not ACTUALLY written by the disciples themselves directly - nor are they written by ANYBODY who knew the disciples or Yeshua directly...Nobody writing the new testemant is a direct witness to any events they report as "truth" - those gospels were literally manufactured to order, some four centuries later and all this is fully admitted by the catholic authority themselves of course - but if any doubt - if any think it is the disciples writing there and so are fooled into thinking that is their truth there - then please go and read them carefully - the last few verses of each give clear admissions that this is someone ELSE writing and NOT the disciple whose name the gospel may bare...

Compared to the ORIGINAL gospels - those we nowadays term GNOSTIC for as said the religion lumped all this together to make up the "gnostic enemy" - and we see the originals ARE CLAIMED DIRECTLY by the disciples who say up front page 1 who is writng and why...For instance - John - has a couple of gospels ordained as canon a gospel in his name and revelations also ATTRIBUTED to him....He himself DOES NOT CLAIM AUTHORSHIP - does NOT say at the start "it is I john and Iam writing because.........etc etc" - nothing like is stated - indeed - NONE of the canon are claimed BY the disciples directly - and that is because these books are MANUFACTURED - FRAUDS - like cut n paste remakes - made up from HUNDREDS of PRE EXISTANT manuscripts that WERE written by such direct first hand witnesses as the disciples..

John especially is interesting here - he has as said an ORIGINAL gospel - claimed opening lines, tells us YES it is John the disciple and tells us WHY he is writing.. Then goes on to reveal a direct full on spiritual encounter a true Revelation fromth erisen Christ....he is shown EVERYTHING start to finish - and yet, this gospel is the one that is banned as "herasy" even though it contains Christ DIRECT full truth and even though it is claimed by John himself directly....The bible canon version simply can not match this legitamacy at all for as said the catholic authority fully admits they dont know who the actual authors are as the canon ARE made up from all those pre existant tomes on the orders of Constantine..

This means of course the new testamant is wholly a religious agenda - and can and does say whatever they want and need it to say - a twisting of truth to suit their own purpose - as offered the Holy Ghost MISinformation is an obvious example of this chicanery and manipulation..

Much better where possible to go DIRECT to source - such as the ORIGINAL disciple gospels which are again freely available for the world to read thanks to this marvelous modern internet.. If we want TRUTH then it is NOT to be found in the new testemant - that is only a partial and very manipulated, twisting of truth - the original meaning and intent of Christs legitimate teaching is made very clear to see in the original and legitimate gospels of His diciples..

Pete,

Original? I believe the Gospel of Mary was said to be written in 120AD - hardly an original and in much dispute.

Luke
Introduction
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

1) Luke may not have been an eyewitness, but he spoke directly with those who were. His careful investigation is a lot more valid than your personal opinion as dictated in the above discourse.
2) There is a "certainty of the things" that are written there.
3) They are in harmony and, in some cases, perfectly matches Matthew, Mark and John.
4) With DOZENS of languages and THOUSANDS of documents of the four Gospels... if there were fabricated, untrue and not from the originals, there would be great discrepancies. There isn't.

You will have to present a better case for your position.

 

[Kenny]

Matthew The early church unanimously believed that the gospel of Matthew was the first written gospel and was penned by Matthew himself.

Mark was not an Apostle but served one

John -- there is nothing to say it wasn't written by him other than by doubters.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Ken;

I'm sorry, Pete. On the surface, these seems completely off base. I didn't answer everything because it would be too long.
If God doesn't change, how is Yahweh changed to a new god?

Ok - first bare in mind here that EVERYTHING we hold as truth about this "god" comes directly from the Jewish Hebrew heritage and history...The one we call "Yahweh" DOES change - OFTEN - first it presents itself to the Hebrews as said - and this is obviously a very contradictory character for this god - one minute protecting and guiding but the next it is damning and destroying.....Then along comes Christ - and by anybodies standard, He gives another NEW teaching that is SUPPOSED to be about the same god Yahweh, so we are LED to believe by the religious "authority" at least - so we see here the "god" has changed already - but look - after Christ this "god" will radically change directly so, yet again, and abandon the Jews entirely and start again with a NEW chosen people - Mohamed and Isalm and a new revealed truth of this "SAME god"- yes..??....So yes for sure the "god" we call Yahweh does change whenever it sees fit..

One "god" - already has THREE religions and they are all at war with each other CONSTANTLY decreed and mandated - supposedly - BY that god itself as it sets up opposing religions then pits them one against the other all in its name.....RIDICULOUS - but true !! And this isnt even the true start of the Jewish god - not at all - literally ALL THE HEBREW NARRATIVE is a RETELLING of much much MUCH earlier narratves that are first found in ancient SUMER... This god we call Yahweh - all its exploits - all its major events - are ALL recorded originally in the narratives of those we now know as Annunaki - and it turns out these are not SPIRITUAL gods at all - they are purely FLESH AND BLOOD beings exactly like You and I.. So see for sure - the Jewish god HAS changed - many many MANY times - it has a start and hostory that stretches back thousands and THOUSANDs of years BFEFORE any Jewish nation existed and it has been tricking and deceiving us all along whenever it saw a need to do so... In fact, the Jewish god we call Yahweh - is not a SINGLE god at all - never was...it is ELOHIM - one individual among a RACE of Beings - such as Iam Pete a human Being - so it is Yahweh,an Elohim Being - BOTH of us are FLESH AND BONE creatures - not purely spiritual - not the SOURCE of creation.. Many many exploits and narratives are recorded about these Annunaki in Sumer who are also the Elohim of the Bible - many SEPERATE individuals - most notable two brothers Enki and Enlil - their exploits especially will become woven into one narrative with this "god Yahweh" as the chief character but really it is all a misrepresentation of MANY individual "gods" and a collective effort to guide mankind by them all.. The ENTIRE Hebrew lore takes its roots firmly from ancient Sumer at a time even before the Hebrew nation or Jewish culture even existed - indeed - it ALL starts there - the entire world religious history starts THERE in ancient Sumer with these Annunaki who are also the Elohim of bible fame..

Along came Christ in the middle of all this twisted history - and essentially verifies all that the ancient Sumerians tell us about these "gods" and our origins - and told us all very clearly that this one we call Yahweh is DECEIVING US and is not actually a bona fide "spiritual god" at all - is NOT the SOURCE of Creation itself, but is merely an Angel He said - a CREATURE exactly like You and I are..

 

[PeteC-UK]

So Ive explained all the Sumerian stuff elsewhere in great detail - very legitimate and essential religious truth that affects EVERY religion on Earth today for all these "so called gods" ALL come directly from the ancient Sumerian pantheon - here I will concentrate on the specifics then -Yahweh the trickster Angel...

YES FOLKS - this one Yahweh (who is actually TWO leaders working in tandem, sometimes agreeing sometimes disagreeing and this is why his character is so two faced toward us) - this GROUP called in the Bible the Elohim - they DID CREATE MANKIND DIRECTLY !! In a very real sense they are our "god and creator" - but - they are not the SOURCE of Creation itself - not OUR FATHER as Christ terms it.... Indeed - in the Sumerian accounts themselves - these Annunaki gods who are flesh and blood creatures fully ADMIT that they are NOT GODS - and in fact have a very detailed ethical and philosophical debate BEFORE they even create mankind...From their own records they appreciate that a SPIRITUAL and legitimate SOURCE of Creation DOES exist - Father of All Beginning they term it - but they make it very clear that they themselves do not understand this spirit at all and they make it very clear that they are NOT its representatives in any way shape or form (not at first anyway though later a true spiritual event happens that shapes mankinds future) - these Elohim though are CREATURES exactly like you and I - SCIENTISTS who carry out genetic experimentation to create a new species of humanoid - us,mankind...

NOT GODS - not the SOURCE of Creation....For THAT spiritual truth - there is ONLY CHRIST - for HE ALONE speaks of coming form a "place" - or ORIGIN - that is fully NONE MATERIAL - fully SPIRITUAL - He alone speaks of the truth of this SOURCE of Creation itself.. The bible narrative starts as said with FLESH AND BLOOD CREATURES - not gods at all...Aside from the actual origin of the Hebrew narrative firmly and fully rooted in ancient Sumer THOUSAND of years before any Hebrew nation ever existed - we have some DIRECT teaching form Christ Himself that shows us for sure the FATHER spirit He alone teaches us of CANNOT BE the Hebrew god we call Yahweh - cannot be of the Hebrew lore at all - for the things Christ says directly make this very very plain... HE is teaching about a purely NONE PHYSICAL realm and Sovereign Spirit that CAUSES Creation to occur - the religion is dealing with all the PHYSICAL RESULTS and history of that Creation AFTER it had already begun...!! EVERYTHING in the religions version is PHYSICAL - despite what it claims - read it carefully !!!

In Genesis - we are told that this god creates EVERYTHING and is the "source" of this creation - but read it CAREFULLY - we soon see this is just not the case...The universe here ALREADY EXISTS when we first ecounter this "god" in the Hebrew lore - there is "water" and a "firmanant" already in existance before this "god" ever utters a word... Earth exists but is BARREN and FORMLESS it says - there is a "space" that will be sectioned off into various areas as the creation unfolds - these things were here already according to the account - this god didnt "speak" them into existance at all.. Let there be LIGHT is the first spoken command - and yet the Earth has already formed and there is already "waters" that need to be seperated.. These things are NOT spoken onto existance by this god as all the other stuff is (supposed to be)....Clearly the "waters" and the "space" of the firmanant ALREADY EXISTED and this "god" is just shaping and moulding things to its own design ..Its not the CAUSE of the created existance - not the SOURCE that makes things exist - merely shaping and moulding things that ALREADY exist here...Yes we know it CLAIMS fully to be this "source" and many believe it fully - but this is just the start of the deception - both in ancient Sumer AND Christ much later will tell it all very differently - this one Yahweh - these Elohim - NOT gods at all - flesh and blood creatures exactly like You and I...


So the one we thought was the top god source of it all - turns out is just a retelling of much much earlier tales about flesh and blood creatures same as You and I are - and the SPIRITUAL truth to all this is not known by these either and they themselves explain EXACTLY how and why the Earth ACTUALY formed and it is all PHYSICAL EXPLANATION of things that ALREADY existed here... YES they speak of this "spirit of creation" - the FAther of All Beginning they term it - but - they do not understand it and fully admit that to be the case...SImilarly of ocurse -CHRIST - will likewise speak of this SPIRIT, He names similarly Our Father - and out of all these characters HE ALONE is claiming to Be DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE - all these others that we will take to be "gods" have NO IDEA about this spirit and openly admit it in their own history recorded in Sumer - which is the same source of course that will become the Hebrew Jewish saga much later - twisted original truth...Only CHRIST claims to be FROM the spirit of Creation and ONLY HE claims its Affinity.....let it sink in.....Those we call gods were once walking taliking flesh and bone PEOPLE among us that we shared our every days lived with.. THEY CREATED MANKIND by that which we now would term "genetic manipulation" - all documented plain for us to read in ancient Sumer...Out of all this, only Christ alone is speaking of a SOURCE for it all - these other characters are merely bit players in the true Divine drama..

These Annunaki in Sumer - are the Elohim of the Hebrew saga - clear and beyond dispute...Eventually as we know, there is dispute among them - infighting - they become directly involved with mankind HERE on the Earth as "fallen angels"...This is all a mis representation - a misunderstanding - probably due to the flood which is a real world event Folks - PHYSICAL reasons again recorded clearly by these Annunaki/ Elohim who were here to witness it - and because of this near world wide catastrophe a huge huge chunk of recorded history knowledge and wisdom was destroyed meaning mankind had to affectively "reboot" civilisation and start again.. All this recorded as living real world facts in Sumer - written down as allegory THOUSANDS of years later by the Hebrews...This is the start of the ibble - PHYSICAL - not spiritual....

And so that continued - mankind rebuilds - the Elohim here among us stamp authority and control through that which we know as RELIGION -strict rules and customs that must be obeyed forced upon mankind always...When the division starts so too MANY RELIGIONS BEGIN -factions - each following a specific flesh and blood Elohim....Often there is war and open conflict - and this becomes god v god - patron nation v patron nation...One Elohim as far as this particular religion goes, (actually two bros as explained) begin to dominate the middle eastern region we cal Israel -and so THAT nation became its FIRST chosen (l;ater it will swap and pick again as we know) - but at first the Hebrews -and it tells them blatantly -go out now and CONQUER THE LANDS - defeat all these other nations AND THEIR GODS - dont go astray - dont put ANY of these other gods before me - but do as I command and we will be victorious over them all...
Of ccurse I paraphrase - but that is the essential truth right there - all recorded as real world events with flesh and blood gods among us by the Sumerians -all rerecorded as part truth part allegory in the much later Bible versions of the SAME events..The god(s) of the bible are FLESH and BLOOD CREATURES - NOT spiritual beings...

Now as I hinted above - these Elohim have no idea about the legitimate spiritual truth -and yet there is a recorded event by them that tells us of what can only be a direct DIVINE intervention....And yes, it centres around the flood event..One of the Elohim leaders - Enki - has a direct spiritual encounter and is given the means to save mankind from the catastrophe - the plan for it at least - and this is given by a BEING MADE OF LIGHT that says it is from the Father of All...This and a later similar visitation is the ONLY recorded SPIRIRUAL occurrence of the ORIGINAL Sumer narrative....So YES -there IS a spiritual Divine intervention in mankinds history - but -it is NOT done by those we call gods - and even thought they manipulated and thereby created the human species directly - they themselves are NOT the source of that creation process - and when this legitimate spiritual encounter happens to them it is OPENLY DISCUSSED and they are openly BAFFLED BY it - but decide it must be a legitimate Divine Spirit and so they agree to follow its directions and this mankind is saved from destruction... The Elohim didnt do that themselves -this SPIRIT OF LIGHT intervened to ensure it happened....THAT is the first Divine occurrence ever recorded anywhere and it BAFFLES thtese Elohim !!!

As the religion took hold and became chief tool for dominating mankind - so it was the OFFSPRING of the first generation Elohim who then began to portray themselves FULLY "as gods" and display ideas of "spiritual none corporeal eternal truth"...The god Ra in Egypt for example - morphed now into AMON Ra the "unseen" god - as a specific living flesh and blood Elohim named as Mardok literally started a sect and cult worship under his patronage - named himself RA first then later incorporated thses spiritual ideas also to become AMON Ra the unseen god....This allowed him to not only rule Egypt but also to go off all over the world - literally - and start of all manner of other similar cults and religions that placed HIM as supreme SPIRITUAL deity...Its all very complicated I know -but rest assured -its all as yet PHYSICAL - and it all comes from these Elohim flesh and blood creatures....The legitimate spiritual intervention BAFFLES them and intrigues them - so much so that they twist it to suit their own agenda of domination here..