Jesus adherents only: How is a ''separate' trinity concept, not polytheism?

[Coder]

How does one know if they have been deceived by an expert con-man?

Well, not celebrating holidays involving spending money on gifts (e.g. Birthdays, Christmas) and giving an organization money might be a clue.

 

[savagewind]

Well, not celebrating holidays involving spending money on gifts (e.g. Birthdays, Christmas) and giving an organization money might be a clue.

Now you've made yourself look like an apostate. She is not going to be happy you imply her leaders are anything other than fully trustworthy.

 

[Deeje]

Yes and also Jesus says that He is the Alpha and the Omega and He came down from heaven, and before Abraham was "I am", and Philip, anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. Even Colossians 1:15 can be twisted because calling someone the "image of the invisible God" is a pretty blunt affirmation of divinity, I don't care how one tries to spin it.

So are we affirming a trinity again here?

All of what you just quoted can easily be explained without any allusion to a trinity. Twisting the scriptures is what created trinitarian belief in the first place.

Take one of the trinitarian favorites...."before Abraham was I am". (John 8:58)

Have you really had a good look at that account? In context this reads.....
"Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Jesus was not claiming to be God at all.....He was answering a question about his age. He was telling the Jews that he existed before Abraham.

Some try to tie John 8:58 in with Exodus 3:14-15, but if we look at that scripture, what do we see....?
From the ASV....
"14 And God said unto Moses, I am that I am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I am hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

Now look at it from the Complete Jewish Bible....
" God said to Moshe, “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be],” and added, “Here is what to say to the people of Isra’el: ‘Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.’” 15 God said further to Moshe, “Say this to the people of Isra’el: ‘Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [Adonai], the God of your fathers, the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever; this is how I am to be remembered generation after generation."

Do you see an alternate rendering there? Not "I am" but "I will be". The divine name (‘Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh) rendered "Jehovah" (in the ASV) is YHWH, and the divine name is defined as....
"the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wahʹ (become); meaning “He Causes to Become”.

So God's name didn't even mean "I am"...it literally means "he causes to be"...or to "become". It was never a declaration of his existence, but a declaration of his intention to "become" whatever was needed to fulfill his purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

This is what in depth study reveals. All you need are the tools provided online and you can work it out for yourself, but you have to know what you are looking for.

The bottom-line is that there are many conflicting Scriptures, not only about Jesus and whether He is the eternal God, but other things. This should be a red flag IMHO to anyone who thinks that Scriptures can be taken literally or whether whatever wisdom they do contain must be gleaned carefully.

What creates the red flag IMO is the meaning that Christendom has given to many scriptures that seem to conflict. There is no conflict when one knows the truth. Truth can never contradict itself. Jesus said God's word is truth. If we can't count on it....what is there left to count on? Without God's word we would know nothing about Jesus Christ or what he taught.

 

[Deeje]

Well, not celebrating holidays involving spending money on gifts (e.g. Birthdays, Christmas) and giving an organization money might be a clue.

What are holidays? They are "holy days"...can you tell me what is "holy" about incorporating pagan holy days into Christianity? I am not sure what you mean by "involving spending money on gifts" but we give gifts to one another on a regular basis....we just don't do it because some date on a calendar makes the masses contribute to the worship of the commercial system even when they can't afford it. Do you know where most of the churches "holidays' originated? As a former Catholic, you should. "Christmas" is fashioned on the worship of Mythra. Roman sun worship is still as evident in Roman Catholicism today as it was back then.
"Easter" is held in honor of the goddess of fertility "Easter". Birthdays were celebrated by those who believed that the gods had something to do with the date of ones birth and calibrated a horoscope to foretell the destiny of the birthday child. The customs, like the birthday cake with the candles, and the wishes all originated in false spiritistic worship.

God told his nation....Deuteronomy 18:9-12:
“When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. 13 You should prove yourself blameless before Jehovah your God."

Yet Christendom has brought all those practices into Christ's church and still expects him to approve of her...I assure you he doesn't. (Matthew 7:21-23)

As to "giving an organization money".....perhaps you should understand the way Judaism operated. The giving of funds supported the priests and the the temple. It was the way Jews supported the material side of God's worship. It actually costs money to keep a global organization functioning. There is no requirement to give, but each can contribute whatever they can spare and know that our brothers in poorer countries or those who are the victims of natural disasters, are taken care of.

Perhaps a little more research on your part will be beneficial? Please make sure of your facts before you assume anything.

 

[Coder]

Jesus was not claiming to be God at all.....He was answering a question about his age. He was telling the Jews that he existed before Abraham.

Yes, of course, it was just an everyday conversation.


And no, I'm not providing scriptures that support the Trinity. I'm simply showing that people see in Scripture whatever they want to see and they often just explain away whatever they want however it suits their beliefs. There are plenty of Scriptures that one could use to try to show the divinity of Jesus and others that one could use to dispute it. You know what that should do? It should make someone step back and take a look at the environment in which Scripture was compiled and be realistic about it. I encourage people who just blindly believed someone else and just blindly repeats what they are taught without even understanding it themselves, to use the brain God gave them and think. Otherwise, one might offend God by not accepting the freedom He gives and allowing a human or group of humans to actually be a kind of false idol. The Bible says "Call no man your Rabbi." That's good advice. The book of Genesis says God created man, not robots. I do respect Catholicism in that Catholicism has a realistic view of the place/role of Scripture relative to literalism etc. Catholicism decided the canon, but as I have pointed out, I think that there are significant Greek/Roman/pagan influences which calls into question many things about Christianity in general. Still, I find love, goodness, and kindness in the Judeo-Christian ethic and I believe that most Jews and Christians love God and I believe that God is interested in love. The story of the Good Samaritan should make it clear that being a member of a certain "group/church" is not all that matters, even the Catholic Church does not strictly teach that. It's up to God who goes to heaven and Catholics speak of saintly Protestants. That's the right attitude and I think it's a more Godly view. However, again I believe more in the oneness/unity of God than the Trinity.

 

[Coder]

...we just don't do it because some date on a calendar makes the masses contribute to the worship of the commercial system even when they can't afford it. Do you know where most of the churches "holidays' originated?

I believe that God allows us to lighten up and be warm with our neighbors even if they don't believe exactly like we do. Jews give gifts on Christmas, Christians can give gifts to Jews on Hanukah. Yeah, much of it in Christianity may be from pagan dates and maybe even some pagan influences affected Christian beliefs e.g. Trinity but still they understand the concept of one God and of love and I think that's the way to go, folks should be open and kind, as I believe God is open and kind.

 

[savagewind]

Some people voted that God and the Holy Spirit are separate.
I suppose even the Jehovah's Witnesses in their own way teach it.
God is knowledge and wisdom and love. They say God's power is the holy spirit.
Because power is not knowledge, wisdom and love, it is separate from those, therefore something else.
To know that God's power is something separate, might a fool try to cut it off?

Which brings me to another question. I don't know the answer. Were they fools who caused the death of the Messiah?
........or were they tools?

John 12:24

 

[Kenny]

With God (Holy Spirit) teaching us, why do we need Scriptures at all?

It's the plumb line to determine if what you hear is from God or just your pizza after burn.

 

[Kenny]

Since this is not a direct statement about the trinity but one where trinitarians seize upon its inference as proof of their doctrine, here is another explanation......

"Revelation 1:8, 17—To whom do the titles “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last” refer? The title “the Alpha and the Omega” applies to Jehovah, stressing that there was no almighty God before him and that there will be none after him. He is “the beginning and the end.” (Rev. 21:6; 22:13) Although Jehovah is referred to as “the first and the last” at Revelation 22:13, in that there is none before or after him, the context in the first chapter of Revelation shows that the title “the First and the Last” there applies to Jesus Christ. He was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life and the last one to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally.—Col. 1:18."

What makes your explanation more valid than mine?

yours is complicated

You obviously don't believe that Jesus was the foretold "prophet like Moses"?

How in God's earth did you come up with that conclusion?

"Shortly after Pentecost 33 C.E., the apostle Peter quoted a prophecy by Moses that was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Peter was standing before a crowd of worshippers in the temple. The people were “surprised out of their wits” when Peter and John healed a beggar who was lame from birth, and they all ran to investigate. Peter explained that this astonishing act was a result of Jehovah’s holy spirit operating through Jesus Christ. Then, quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures, he said: “In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you.’”—Acts 3:11, 22, 23; read Deuteronomy 18:15, 18, 19

Those words of Moses were likely familiar to Peter’s audience. As Jews, they had a high regard for Moses. (Deut. 34:10) With keen anticipation, they looked forward to the coming of a prophet greater than Moses. That prophet would prove to be not just a messiah, an anointed one of God like Moses, but the Messiah, “the Christ of God, the Chosen One” of Jehovah.—Luke 23:35; Heb. 11:26." (2009 WT)

Yes... Jesus is greater than Moses. (Hebrews 3)

"At the beginning of the church age"?....or the beginning of the apostasy?

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Latter usually means later and not at the beginning. Interestingly enough it is the Holy Spirit that speaketh expressly... go figure how a non-entity can talk.

Yes, but if you answer yourself, then the men in the white coats will come and take you away......

LOL

"The Lord God" in the Hebrew Scriptures is YHWH. The Father did indeed send his son (John 17:3) but the son is not "the Lord God".......he is the "Lord Jesus Christ". (1Corinthians 8:5-6) The title "Lord" is not exclusive to the Father or the son. Even humans in positions of authority are addressed as "Lord".

Yes... in human form... but in resurrected form He is now, once again, Lord of all.

Are you placing limitations on the way God uses his power?

No... apparently you are by saying He can't take a portion of Himself and place it in a human body. Only God is life, has life and is the light... and yet it speaks of Jesus too.
Jehovah Rapha - healer - by the stripes of Jesus we are healed
Jehovah Shalom - Peace - we have the peace of Jesus that passes all understanding
Jehovah Ru'ah - our Shepherd - Jesus is our Great Shepherd
Jehovah Nissi - The Banner of Salvation - Jesus is our banner, victor
Jehovah Tsidkenu - Our righteousness - Jesus is made unto us the Righteousness of God.

The Father is God

If a=b and b=c then a=c

Very simple.

Funny, but the ones who wrote scripture were not linguists or scholars either. Shooting the messenger does not devalue the message. It is holy spirit that determines who understands the scriptures, not the interpretation of the learned ones. Didn't the Pharisees fall for that one? (Acts 4:13)

When the message is different from what is written... then it does matter. Satan sometimes comes as an angel of light... I find it interesting that both Smith and Russel both had the same experience, both said that the Church is wrong, both have new scriptures...

But, Eve fell for adding and changing scripture. The best way to not commit the same mistake is to learn from the past.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

for Jesus adherents only.

Any Jesus adherent can answer, but the answers should be relevant/and hopefully concise, as considering the thread question.

I am not necessarily going to argue every point made in the thread/if any.

I know that some ''trinitarians'', /the word is not totally specific regarding how it's perceived,,
do not actually think that the Godhood is three 'separate persons'...you can answer as well, if you want

How is it that you have 5 fingers, but they are actually part of one hand?

 

[Coder]

... plumb line to determine if what you hear is from God...

Yes, my question was a bit rhetorical but still, if God teaches us all directly, why do we need Scriptures? I think some Scriptures even indicate that: "You study the Scriptures.....yet they speak about me", "Call no man your Rabbi", The word is written in our hearts... or the law will be written in your hearts etc. The Holy Spirit will teach/remind you. Not good news for Bible advocates.

 

[savagewind]

Are you placing limitations on the way God uses his power?

And why not? The Jehovah's Witnesses do it. THEY say, "anyone who died before Jesus died will not be going to Heaven ever".
Is that not limiting God's Holy Spirit?

I know why they say it. Because of ONE scripture which says, 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven+ but the one who descended from heaven,+ the Son of man.

Also, Acts of the Apostles 2:34 For David did not ascend to the heavens

While we I am on the subject of one scripture, they also use just one scripture for the giving of the believing people of Earth to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

We know David did not ascend to Heaven. The way had not been made yet. Now, this part she calls "trolling". THEY say Jehovah can and will resurrect many people to the Earth, but is not able to resurrect any dead ones to Heaven, because Jesus made the way there.

 

[savagewind]

Yes, my question was a bit rhetorical but still, if God teaches us all directly, why do we need Scriptures? I think some Scriptures even indicate that: "You study the Scriptures.....yet they speak about me", "Call no man your Rabbi", The word is written in our hearts... or the law will be written in your hearts etc. The Holy Spirit will teach/remind you. Not good news for Bible advocates.

I think a person does not need scripture to be this: Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35
But it is good for trolling people who are wrong. Isn't it?

 

[Kenny]

Yes, my question was a bit rhetorical but still, if God teaches us all directly, why do we need Scriptures? I think some Scriptures even indicate that: "You study the Scriptures.....yet they speak about me", "Call no man your Rabbi", The word is written in our hearts... or the law will be written in your hearts etc. The Holy Spirit will teach/remind you. Not good news for Bible advocates.

I think that is a good question.

First, we do need to balance scripture with scripture or, in other words, if we just take what one verse says at the expense of not including another, it would be easy to go astray.

1) Eph 4:11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, - it does mention that teachers are a gift and therefore we do need someone to teach us. Otherwise this verse and others would be wrong.
2) Again Heb 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! - there are those who need to be taught and those who are teachers
3) Then what does this mean?

1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which behave received of him abideth in you, and ye need* not that any man teach you: but asthe same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If I read it correctly, this has to do with people (teachers) who are trying to seduce you. The anointing, the Holy Spirit, teaches you what is "truth, and is no lie". In other words, if your spirit goes "tilt" when you hear something, slow down a bit and be like the Berean's that studied to make sure that it is so. The Holy Spirit will teach you what is true and what isn't and will use the words of the Prophets and Apostles to help you through the process.

It is true that I have learned some things by the Holy Spirit and found out later it was in Scripture, but like going to school... we can learn algebra by revelation and take a life-time to do it or go to school and learn in one year what it took another a life-time to figure out.

 

[Shiranui117]

I am really cringing now.....first of all, there is no "Holy Ghost" in the Bible. The word "ghost" is of German origin ("geist") and it means "spirit".

"Geist" and "ghost" are cognates (words with a common linguistic ancestry that share the same meaning and a similar appearance), hence why many earlier English speakers commonly spoke of the "Holy Ghost", even as recently as the 1800's, just as German-speaking people still speak of the "Heiliger Geist". Honestly, I'm not sure why we decided to make the switch to "Holy Spirit".

Even in English, there's essentially no distinction, etymologically speaking, between the words "ghost" and "spirit". We just have decided that living ghosts are spirits, and dead spirits are ghosts, even though we still have idioms dating back to a time period where that wasn't the case, such as the common saying "he gave up the ghost".

 

[Deeje]

yours is complicated

Is it? It's the same view of God that the Jews believed all through their history. Jesus was Jewish, so it is what he taught about his Father.
YHWH (Jehovah) is the "one" God of the Jews (Deuteronomy 6:4)....he is not a trinity, just a single, all-powerful entity who created all things and who set the guidelines for Israel's worship. His position was not to be shared with anyone else. (Exodus 20:3)

Jesus is the "son of God", sent by him to offer his life to save obedient mankind. (John 17:3) He too worshipped the Father on earth (John 20:17) but YHWH continued to be his God even on his return to heaven. (Revelation 3:12) He is a created spirit being...the very first and only direct creation of his Father. (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15-16) He was then used as the agency through whom all other things came into being.

The holy spirit emanates from the Father and can be sent to communicate his will, and empower his human servants....including Jesus. Before his baptism, Jesus was not a miracle worker....he was 100% human (but without sin) He gave his mortal life to rescue Adam's children. Once he had offered his life, he returned to heaven as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)

Yours is very complicated IMO.
You have the Father who is God, and the son, who is also God, and the holy spirit, who is also God....but there are not three gods...there is only one.
1+1+1=1......but only if you squeeze all three gods into one "head". These separate parts of God can exist in different places at different times but still be one entity. They communicate with one another and one part of God can know things that the other part doesn't. (Matthew 24:36) One part of God can have a will different from the other. (Matthew 26:39) One part of the Almighty needs angels to strengthen him. (Mark 1:12-13; Luke 21:41-43)

We are told to worship the Father, but we are not told to worship the son or the holy spirit. We are told to pray to the Father, but not to the son, or the holy spirit.
As the "one mediator" for the whole of mankind, (1 Timothy 2:5) only Jesus can take our prayers to the Father, by asking 'in his name'. (John 14:14)
The holy spirit is never said to be a mediator, nor are we ever told to pray in the name of the holy spirit.
If we need a mediator between us and the father, if Jesus is equally God, why do we not need a mediator between us and him?

It is an unforgivable sin to blaspheme the holy spirit, but not 'any other sort of blasphemy'.. (Matthew 12:31-32) How come?

There is no equality ever demonstrated with the three parts of this three headed god. He is an invention of Christendom...a product of the "weeds".

How in God's earth did you come up with that conclusion?

Could have had something to do with this reply.....where you refuted the connection between Jesus and Moses.

"Absolutely not and not comparable.

Moses died and did not resurrect.
Jesus died and did resurrect.
Moses was the mediator of the Jews
Jesus is the mediator for the world for all time, before and after.
The Word DID need to fill that role."

So I concluded that...."You obviously don't believe that Jesus was the foretold "prophet like Moses"?"

Yes... Jesus is greater than Moses. (Hebrews 3)

Not just "greater than Moses", but the one who was prophesied to fill that role. (Acts 3:19-23; John 7:40)

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Latter usually means later and not at the beginning. Interestingly enough it is the Holy Spirit that speaketh expressly... go figure how a non-entity can talk.

"Latter" could have been the latter part of the first century, which would tie in perfectly to when the apostasy began.
2 Thess 2:7:
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way"

It was "already at work" when the apostles were still alive. When the last apostle John, died at the end of the first century, the final "restraint" was removed and the rot set in pretty quickly.

Yes... in human form... but in resurrected form He is now, once again, Lord of all.

If Jesus has returned to being God in heaven, then how come he still calls his Father "my God"? Revelation was written long after Jesus returned to his Father and he made this promise.....Revelation 3:12 Does your God have a God?
"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name." (NKJV)

Four times in this one verse.....The Father is still the God of Jesus.

No... apparently you are by saying He can't take a portion of Himself and place it in a human body. Only God is life, has life and is the light... and yet it speaks of Jesus too.
Jehovah Rapha - healer - by the stripes of Jesus we are healed
Jehovah Shalom - Peace - we have the peace of Jesus that passes all understanding
Jehovah Ru'ah - our Shepherd - Jesus is our Great Shepherd
Jehovah Nissi - The Banner of Salvation - Jesus is our banner, victor
Jehovah Tsidkenu - Our righteousness - Jesus is made unto us the Righteousness of God.

The Father is God

If a=b and b=c then a=c

Very simple.

This is inference...not proof. I hope you know the difference. You cannot make a doctrine out of inference.
Jesus perfectly reflected his Father because he is the "image" of his Creator. (Colossians 1:15) He is God's "firstborn"....a title he bore in heaven long before his earthly sojourn.

When the message is different from what is written... then it does matter. Satan sometimes comes as an angel of light... I find it interesting that both Smith and Russel both had the same experience, both said that the Church is wrong, both have new scriptures...

The church went wrong so long ago that most people have no idea how far they deviated from Christ's teachings.
We have no prophets with supernatural visitations.
We have no new scripture. Nor do we have a 'doctored' translation. All we did was go back to the beginning and start from scratch. As foretold in Daniel, a cleansing and refining was to take place among Jehovah's worshippers in "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9, 10) We are proof that it was fulfilled. Insight was granted only to those who accepted the cleansing. Cleansing and refining were necessary otherwise it would not have been foretold for this period. Both are processes that take time.

But, Eve fell for adding and changing scripture. The best way to not commit the same mistake is to learn from the past.

You don't think that the church "added" to the scriptures? Would you like to explore that? You might be surprised at just how much they added, by forcing the scriptures to say what Jesus never taught.

 

[Kenny]

Is it? It's the same view of God that the Jews believed all through their history. Jesus was Jewish, so it is what he taught about his Father.
YHWH (Jehovah) is the "one" God of the Jews (Deuteronomy 6:4)....he is not a trinity, just a single, all-powerful entity who created all things and who set the guidelines for Israel's worship. His position was not to be shared with anyone else. (Exodus 20:3)

There was much that Jesus taught that even His disciples didn't understand... After he resurrected, the Holy Spirit (part of God), taught and revealed what Jesus had been saying. In the beginning it was written "Let US make man in our image". Us is very easy to understand unless you want to change its meaning, of course.

Jesus is the "son of God", sent by him to offer his life to save obedient mankind. (John 17:3) He too worshipped the Father on earth (John 20:17) but YHWH continued to be his God even on his return to heaven. (Revelation 3:12) He is a created spirit being...the very first and only direct creation of his Father. (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15-16) He was then used as the agency through whom all other things came into being.

Jesus - is the Word made flesh - God, Emanuel God with us. As the second Adam (when he was made flesh) THEN he was the Son of God but He and the Father are one.

The Holy Spirit emanates from the Father and can be sent to communicate his will, and empower his human servants....including Jesus. Before his baptism, Jesus was not a miracle worker....he was 100% human (but without sin) He gave his mortal life to rescue Adam's children. Once he had offered his life, he returned to heaven as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)

NooooOPE!
1) "Feel my side and feel my hand" is very physical. (I capitalized Holy Spirit for you). Emanates - not sure I would use that word but definitely from the Father as He is also part of God.
YeeeeES!!
As Jesus He was 100% human.

Yours is very complicated IMO.
You have the Father who is God, and the son, who is also God, and the holy spirit, who is also God....but there are not three gods...there is only one.1+1+1=1......but only if you squeeze all three gods into one "head". These separate parts of God can exist in different places at different times but still be one entity. They communicate with one another and one part of God can know things that the other part doesn't. (Matthew 24:36) One part of God can have a will different from the other. (Matthew 26:39) One part of the Almighty needs angels to strengthen him. (Mark 1:12-13; Luke 21:41-43)

Hmmmmm.... then you must be complicated too...
your view.... (1) A spirit/soul (+1) = 1 human being.... how did you squeeeeeze yourself into one person?
Of course, biblically, we are a three part being squeeeeezed into one person.
Hmmmm.... Orange skin, orange pulp, seeds.... squeezed into one orange
Hmmmm.... Yolk, white, shell... squeezed into one egg.

Sounds simple to me!

We are told to worship the Father, but we are not told to worship the son or the holy spirit. We are told to pray to the Father, but not to the son, or the holy spirit.
As the "one mediator" for the whole of mankind, (1 Timothy 2:5) only Jesus can take our prayers to the Father, by asking 'in his name'. (John 14:14)
The holy spirit is never said to be a mediator, nor are we ever told to pray in the name of the holy spirit.
If we need a mediator between us and the father, if Jesus is equally God, why do we not need a mediator between us and him?

Hmmm....

Rev 5: 11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
12 In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” this sounds like worship--PLEASE don't tell me that honor, glory AND PRAISE is not worship.
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” This sounds like worship
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped. OH MY GOODNESS... It IS worship!

As far as mediator... because the Father didn't come in the flesh to die for us... the Holy Spirit didn't come in the flesh to die for us... the Word came in the flesh to die for us to become the High Priest in the order of Melchizedek of whom there is no beginning and no end.

It is an unforgivable sin to blaspheme the holy spirit, but not 'any other sort of blasphemy'.. (Matthew 12:31-32) How come?

The Bible doesn't say why so it becomes a theological question that you could have various opinions... I have mine and it is irrelevant.

There is no equality ever demonstrated with the three parts of this three headed god. He is an invention of Christendom...a product of the "weeds".

LOL... Only in the figment of your creation.

The all have God attributes.

Could have had something to do with this reply.....where you refuted the connection between Jesus and Moses.

I didn't refute it... I quoted that Jesus is greater than Moses (a type and shadow of what was to come)

Not just "greater than Moses", but the one who was prophesied to fill that role. (Acts 3:19-23; John 7:40)

I agree.

"Latter" could have been the latter part of the first century, which would tie in perfectly to when the apostasy began.
2 Thess 2:7:
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way"

It was "already at work" when the apostles were still alive. When the last apostle John, died at the end of the first century, the final "restraint" was removed and the rot set in pretty quickly.

Could... if you want to be creative. Jesus coming soon could be interpreted as the first century but isn't. So... end time false prophets IMO would include Russel and Smith.

If Jesus has returned to being God in heaven, then how come he still calls his Father "my God"? Revelation was written long after Jesus returned to his Father and he made this promise.....Revelation 3:12 Does your God have a God?
"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name." (NKJV)

Why do they till call the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit? Does God have to conform to your theology?

Four times in this one verse.....The Father is still the God of Jesus.

The Word is still has flesh.

This is inference...not proof. I hope you know the difference. You cannot make a doctrine out of inference.
Jesus perfectly reflected his Father because he is the "image" of his Creator. (Colossians 1:15) He is God's "firstborn"....a title he bore in heaven long before his earthly sojourn.

Disagree... YOU say it is an inference. But they BOTH are the sanctifier, the redeemer, the righteousness and the wisdom. No one BUT God is...

The church went wrong so long ago that most people have no idea how far they deviated from Christ's teachings.
We have no prophets with supernatural visitations.
We have no new scripture. Nor do we have a 'doctored' translation. All we did was go back to the beginning and start from scratch. As foretold in Daniel, a cleansing and refining was to take place among Jehovah's worshippers in "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9, 10) We are proof that it was fulfilled. Insight was granted only to those who accepted the cleansing. Cleansing and refining were necessary otherwise it would not have been foretold for this period. Both are processes that take time.

MANY new translations started from scratch... but none will agree with JW John 1:1
We DO have prophets with supernatural visitation
We DON'T have new scripture and thus JW translation is wrong
The Catholic CHURCH went wrong but there was always a remnant (Catholic Church is returning to God root IMO)

You don't think that the church "added" to the scriptures? Would you like to explore that? You might be surprised at just how much they added, by forcing the scriptures to say what Jesus never taught.

I have.

 

[Coder]

...the Holy Spirit (part of God), taught and revealed what Jesus had been saying.

I'm not a Trinitarian (but for different reasons than JW theology). It's plain to see that there are Scriptures that support the Trinity doctrine. However, I think that's because the Scriptures may have been influenced by Roman leaders (father-son gods) or used as a parable to teach pagans. Recommend see my thread on the oneness of God. Also, "Holy Spirit" could simply be another term for God or how He works, as always understood in Judaism. Also Ken, notice how you said "(part of God)", that shows a problem with Trinity doctrine IMHO, I don't believe that God has parts/persons.
http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html
"...the fact remains that Christian pneumatological terminology is rooted in that of the Jewish religion..."

In the beginning it was written "Let US make man in our image". Us is very easy to understand unless you want to change its meaning, of course.

Yes, I once thought that. You might find this Jewish article helpful, about why God's name "Elohim" does not mean plural.
https://outreachjudaism.org/elohim-plural/

I think many Christians and JWs interpret some parts of the Bible far too seriously/literally. There may be whole passages fabricated/doctored by Roman leaders or many may be parables used for preaching to pagans. Again, strongly recommend see my thread on the oneness of God. Also suggest read some of Joseph's Atwill's discussion. Mind blowing and eye opening. I don't necessarily agree with everything Joseph Atwill says but I really think it's time for Christians to stop having such an immature view of Scripture especially the NT. People need to be realistic. It's Sacred Scripture, but one must understand in what sense it is "Sacred" and in what sense it is "Scripture". It amazes me to see Christians and JWs debating from Scripture when honestly I think you're missing so much - it was influenced by Greek and Roman pagan theology/philosophy and/or Roman leaders - yes that's right - Scripture itself! Some of those Roman leaders might have been surprised if they new how seriously/literally people were going to take this 2000 years later. A lot of it may be influenced by propaganda! Roman leaders tried to force their pagan gods into Jewish temples - that's a big part of the conflict the Romans had with the Jews! Don't you think they would force their pagan theology into the Scriptures of the new movement in Judaism called Christianity?! You might ask - why would Roman leaders care? Well, I think the Roman leaders believed that the success of the Roman Empire (battles etc.) was helped by "blessing" from their gods - like Jupiter. Maybe part of Constantine accepting Christianity was pagan "father-son god" terminology in the NT, then he could call a Council to "settle the matter". Notice the Latin "pater" (father) in the word "Ju-piter"? "Jupiter" means sky father. What's the sky? The heavens!. The Romans worshipped a god who was a "father in heaven/sky" - see?! Ever wonder why Catholics and other Christians look up to the sky when they pray? Do we really think that God is up there somewhere? God is an infinite Spirit, He's not in the "sky" anymore than He's in the ocean - where do you think we inherited this custom of "looking up" when we pray? I have a clue for you - "Roman". I only recently began to realize just how significant the term "Roman" is in the name "Roman Catholic Church".

So yes, like JW theology, I don't believe in the Trinity, but for different reasons than theirs. I imagine even some scholars in the Catholic Church are aware that the doctrine has shortcomings since in this era we're not teaching pagans and under a pagan government. I do agree that Judaism understood the oneness of God properly and I admire the Jewish people for not giving into the Roman Empire.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God and Jesus are always in the masculine gender whereas God's spirit is also in the neuter 'it '
- Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25
Some translations have changed ' itself ' to himself such as found at Romans 8:16; Romans 8:26
That does Not change God's spirit from being a neuter ' it' or 'itself'
Just as in English we call a car or a ship as a ' she' although it remains as a neuter ' it'.
So, God's spirit - Psalms 104:30 - to me is Not a person.

 

[Coder]

So, God's Spirit - Psalms 104:30 - to me is Not a person.

Well, I agree in that I don't think that the term "Holy Spirit" means a third person of a Trinity. However, I do think that the term "Holy Spirit" can be a "personal" term when used as another way to refer to God who we believe is a personal Being. Further, I believe (in agreement with Catholic theology) that God is neither male nor female even though we refer to God as He/Him (in English) sometimes. I.e. I don't think the "neuter" aspect really carries much weight but I do agree with you in general.