Jesus as a tzadik?

[theosis]

Are there any Jewish traditions that see Jesus not as God or the Messiah but merely as a tzadik whose teachings are useful inspiration?

 

[Sculelos]

As for as I can tell Messianic Jews are mostly Orthadox Jews who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Jewish Jews are those who follow the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadduces. Who were the Jewish Rabbis and Lawyers of the Time, you can get a good Idea why both groups hated Jesus in their respective time-frames.

Luke 11
King James Version (KJV)

14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.

15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

37 And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat.

38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.

44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

45 Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also.

46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.

49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

53 And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:

54 Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Isaiah 64
King James Version (KJV)
64 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

9 Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

11 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.

12 Wilt thou refrain thyself for these things, O Lord? wilt thou hold thy peace, and afflict us very sore?

 

[theosis]

As for as I can tell Messianic Jews are mostly Orthadox Jews who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Orthodox Judaism has a definition - it's a conservative branch of Rabbinical Judaism. Has nothing to do with Messianic sects.

 

[Sculelos]

Orthodox Judaism has a definition - it's a conservative branch of Rabbinical Judaism. Has nothing to do with Messianic sects.

Orthodoxy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To me it's impossible to be an Orthodox Jew and not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior because to do so you have to ignore the prophet Daniel.

 

[theosis]

To me it's impossible to be an Orthodox Jew and not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior because to do so you have to ignore the prophet Daniel.

With all due respect you also state in another thread that you believe in geocentrism so let's not pretend like you're an authority.

 

[dantech]

Orthodoxy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To me it's impossible to be an Orthodox Jew and not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior because to do so you have to ignore the prophet Daniel.

There is so much wrong with this sentence, I don't know where to begin...

 

[xkatz]

Orthodoxy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To me it's impossible to be an Orthodox Jew and not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior because to do so you have to ignore the prophet Daniel.

Best troll. Ever.

 

[theosis]

Best troll. Ever.

Sculelos is a hardcore fundamentalist, he could actually be serious.

 

[Sculelos]

There is so much wrong with this sentence, I don't know where to begin...

It's not hard to understand if we understand Daniels 70 weeks in Daniel chapter 9.

453 B.C. was the Year the Going forth of the Word to Rebuild Jerusalem was present. 7 Weeks was determined before the building was completed which each day being 1 year or 49 Years. This brings us to 404 B.C.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Savior was to be cut-off or die in the middle of the 62nd week. Since we are counting from 404 B.C. we take 434 years and add it which brings us to about 30 AD but then we add 1 for no zero year which is 31 A.D. then subtract 3.5 for him dying in the middle of the week and we get 28 A.D. This is correct because Jesus was born in 6 B.C. 3 Years before Herod the Great Died.

After Jesus died 8.5 weeks was left before the Seal book of Revelations was to be finished which is 59.5 Years which means John finished it by 88 A.D. and several copies were made in the Early 90's after it was sent out to many of the Churches of that Day.

I'm not really sure how people can get around ignoring this prophecy if they claim to be Jewish or Christian unless that is off course you believe that Daniel was not a true prophet.

 

[Poeticus]

It's not hard to understand if we understand Daniels 70 weeks in Daniel chapter 9.

453 B.C. was the Year the Going forth of the Word to Rebuild Jerusalem was present. 7 Weeks was determined before the building was completed which each day being 1 year or 49 Years. This brings us to 404 B.C.



The Savior was to be cut-off or die in the middle of the 62nd week. Since we are counting from 404 B.C. we take 434 years and add it which brings us to about 30 AD but then we add 1 for no zero year which is 31 A.D. then subtract 3.5 for him dying in the middle of the week and we get 28 A.D. This is correct because Jesus was born in 6 B.C. 3 Years before Herod the Great Died.

After Jesus died 8.5 weeks was left before the Seal book of Revelations was to be finished which is 59.5 Years which means John finished it by 88 A.D. and several copies were made in the Early 90's after it was sent out to many of the Churches of that Day.

I'm not really sure how people can get around ignoring this prophecy if they claim to be Jewish or Christian unless that is off course you believe that Daniel was not a true prophet.

Namaste,



You are not supposed to debate in the blue....

M.V.

 

[Sculelos]

Namaste,



You are not supposed to debate in the blue....

M.V.

Well this is the Messianic Judaism section and I claim to be a Messianic Jew by definition because I am in Christ therefore I am a join heir with Christ according to the word of God. (I think blue means we are not suppose to debate different religions, not the same religion but correct me if I'm wrong as I am Messianic Jew!)

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[theosis]

I revise my previous statement. Definitely a troll.

 

[Sculelos]

I revise my previous statement. Definitely a troll.

Messianic means I believe in the Messiah. Judaism means I am a Follower of Jesus Christ and Jehovah and believe in obeying both the Old and New Testaments whenever possible.

I believe that I have the legal right to talk about Judaism because that is where 100% of my beliefs are founded. I am 100% Jewish and I am 100% Christian there is no conflict because Jesus is the law and he is the diviner of Jehovah.

 

[Juhurka]

Are there any Jewish traditions that see Jesus not as God or the Messiah but merely as a tzadik whose teachings are useful inspiration?

Hard to see someone as a tzadik in the name of whom thousands if not millions where slaughtered.

 

[Zardoz]

Hard to see someone as a tzadik in the name of whom thousands if not millions where slaughtered.

It is important to distinguish the observant and faithful Jew named Yeshua from the Jesus that Edom (Rome) and Paul created afterwards.

Everyone, please keep in the spirit of DIR, we are a diverse group, with members from many backgrounds.

I don't hide my rejection of Paul & Edom, but that does not allow me to scorn those who do follow that path. That path was made on high, for the descendants of Esau, and while it's not my path it's G-d's plan for them.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Namaste,



You are not supposed to debate in the blue....

M.V.

Hi, Namaste

I don't think Sculelos is debating here. We are trying to establish what Messianics believe. Sculelos believes that his particular understanding of Daniel is fundamental to the Jewish, Christian AND Messianic faiths. His own words are:

"I'm not really sure how people can get around ignoring this prophecy if they claim to be Jewish or Christian unless that is off course you believe that Daniel was not a true prophet". He is not trying to convince anyone of his doctrine; he is just saying that it is so obvious to HIM that he can't understand why others don't see it.

I take Sculelos as serious, and not trying to be contentious; and I don't consider him a troll. Maybe I'm wrong; but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. It takes all kinds to make a world -- even us (inclusive); and no two of us are alike.

Shalom shalom.

Now, Sculelos, perhaps we can get back to saying whether or not the Jews consider Jesus to have been a tzadik. From what I have heard from Jews in general, they do not. Many of the THINGS HE SAID, however, are considered as valid. Both a false prophet and a tzadik, for instance, might note that the clear sky is blue and a cloudy sky is gray.