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74x12
Well-Known Member
That's not the point of unleavened bread. It signifies purity. It's about not being tainted or "leavened". It has nothing to do with rising from the dead.
So it has more to do with being a lamb without spot or blemish. Which is to mean pure.
The reasons Jesus has to do with passover are probably countless on the other hand.
Prove it.
Charoset, I guess. With milk and sugar and other things that are best consumed without thinking about them too much.
Here's an article about it:
Ben And Jerry's Sells Charoset-Flavored Ice Cream Just In Time For Passover
We do okay with kosher restaurants
Not a fan of falafel, though...
I think I might be missing something. Although now I have an argument about this particular explanation. But first things first:
@Brian2 said that the Passover lamb was not in a hurry. To which I responded, among other things: Well, it's an animal.
To which you responded by saying that symbolism doesn't have to be a perfect match. I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote.
And about your argument itself - would you not expect your god in drawing symbolic parallels, to do so perfectly?
74x12
Well-Known Member
I wonder if you've thought of this. The matzah is eaten without it being risen. If it rose first and then was eaten; then that would be like rising from the dead before you die. It doesn't make sense.
Cute. But my argument is not that "per Christianity, Jesus = matzah but actually this does not make sense". Rather, it's that matzah represents something important in the theology of Passover and Jesus, per the NT, did something completely contrary to the theology of Passover. Meanwhile, your argument comes to reject the notion that Jesus = matzah. That's fine with me because that was not my argument.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Yes it's "cute" but so was your argument in the first place.
I think your argument is not very strong. I believe the symbolism of having an unleavened as in untainted bread is more important. Leaven is yeast a kind of infection really. So it does make sense.However ... the Eastern Orthodox church may have a good answer for you from your perspective.
According to Eastern Orthodox Christians the euchrist(Lord's supper) should only be eaten with leavened bread rather than unleavened. They believe that unleavened bread was for the Old Testament. This would mean that the bread is unleavened on purpose (during the passover) to symbolize how Christ died according to the Law of Moses. Then having been raised from the dead; this means the Euchrist should be eaten with leavened(risen) bread. Showing that he has risen and the new Testament has come.
74x12
Well-Known Member
I do think matzah in the passover represents Jesus because he calls himself the bread of life.
Sorry, I don't see why the rising of Jesus should have happened in the same ways as rising of the Passover bread.
Because Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the commandments, fulfilled the Torah, etc, and that his death was deeply symbolic of Passover. I am challenging one particular aspect of that claim. And, note that it is not merely about the rising but about having risen slowly.
Yes it's "cute" but so was your argument in the first place.
I try.Oh, I don't know about that. I think I've raised some good questions.
On your view that unleavened bread symbolizes purity - what is the need for two symbols of purity, both the lamb and the bread?
I'll be honest with you - Ashkenazi matzah is a piece of cardboard. Other Jewish communities have other types of matzah, but in the end, it's still just flour and water. It doesn't taste good. I really don't think that it can be considered "the bread of life".
joelr
Well-Known Member
The 3 day motif is part of the myth. Most of the earlier dying/rising demigods resurrected in 3 days, Inanna, Osirus and many others.
But the source Gospel Mark is making Jesus the ultimate replacement for the Passover and Yom Kippur. Instead of annual this counts as a permanent sacrifice.
"There is quite a bit of evidence that the earliest Christians believed that Jesus’ death served to merge the sacrifices of the Passover and Yom Kippur, it is surely no coincidence that Mark appears to have done just that, by having Jesus be a Yom Kippur sacrifice during Passover.
The story of Barabbas in Mark’s crucifixion narrative sets it up. No Roman magistrate, let alone the infamously ruthless Pontius Pilate, would let a violent and murderous rebel go free, and most importantly, no such Roman ceremony ( letting the mob choose to free a particular prisoner) is attested as ever having taken place, we simply don’t have any Roman documentation or archeological artifact found thus far to support such a claim. Even more telling though, is the fact that this ceremony quite obviously emulates the Jewish Yom Kippur ritual, namely the scapegoat and atonement, and this apparent allegory takes place in a story that is itself about atonement (Jesus’ fundamental role as portrayed in Mark’s Gospel).
Another interesting coincidence is the name Barabbas itself, an unusual name that means ‘Son of the Father’ in Aramaic, and Jesus is often portrayed as the ‘Son of the Father’ as well. So in this story we have two sons of the father; one released into the wild mob carrying the sins of Israel (such as murder and rebellion), effectively serving as an allegorical scapegoat (Barabbas), and the other sacrificed so his blood may atone for the sins of Israel (Jesus) — and we have one bearing the sins literally, and the other bearing the sins figuratively (just as we find in the Yom Kippur ceremony of Leviticus 16 in the Old Testament). We get further confirmation of this belief in the Epistle to the Hebrews (9-10), where we hear Jesus’ death described as the ultimate Yom Kippur atonement sacrifice.
Additionally, in this story, Mark seems to be pointing out how the Jews are erroneously viewing Jesus as the scapegoat, where Jesus is scorned, beaten, spat upon, crowned and pierced, and dressed in scarlet, and though Barabbas is the actual scapegoat, the Jews mistakenly embrace him instead. So Mark seems to be portraying the Jews as acting completely blind to the situation and choosing their sins (i.e. Barabbas) rather than their salvation (i.e. Jesus). Finally, this story seems to suggest that the Jews have also chosen the wrong model for the expected messiah. Whereas Barabbas could be seen as the murderous revolutionary, in line with the common Jewish belief that the messiah was expected to be a kind of revolutionary military leader, Jesus on the other hand, exemplified the suffering servant model of the messiah (another Jewish messianic model, though arguably less popular than the former), and one that would circumvent any need for a military revolution by enacting a spiritual victory through his death instead. So the Jews appear to have chosen the type of messiah they want, rather than the type of messiah that God wants instead (or so Mark believes anyway). Furthermore, rather than using a random lottery (i.e. God) to choose which “goat” would serve as the scapegoat, and which would serve as the atonement, the Jews removed God from the equation and made the choice themselves. If one looks at all of these elements together, we can see just how brilliant Mark’s story is, having multiple allegorical layers weaved into one."
It's not so much about the physical properties of the matzah. The wafers used in Christian services are equally bland and cardboard like
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Hi Harel13. Good afternoon. I hope you are well. You say the lamb is not the subject of this thread, but it is. The Passover lamb represents something or someone, surely you can see that and as the subject of this thread is indeed the Messiah, it is important to make the connection that in the New Testament we are given clear evidence that the Messiah was in fact represented by the Passover lamb. "Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened. For our Passover also has been sacrificed, even the Messiah" (1 Corinthians 5:7) Why is the Messiah represented by that lamb? Because that lambs are generally meek animals. If you've ever sheared sheep, you'll notice they'll become almost lifeless as you sheer their wool. They don't resist. They could be considered as humble in character.
The Passover lamb was eaten with the unleavened bread, we read in Exodus 12:8, but since Yahshua fulfilled the Passover lamb as a human being without blemish, we are to continue the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread but we just eat the unleavened bread. The lamb was roasted by fire, just as Yahshua had to endure the fire of this world, and His body was given as the life of the world. Everyone that partook of the Passover lamb were spared from the angel of death. Thus, even back in Egypt, eating the Passover lamb and utilizing the blood had life-giving properties hence also John 6:48. Also, I want to point out that the Passover lamb had a unifying effect on Israel. Those families which were too little for a lamb came together and joined with other families as we read in Exodus 12:4. John 17:23 shows that Yahshua's prayer was for unity of Yahweh's people (in keeping Yahweh's Law). Yahshua came to unify Yahweh's people in the keeping of Yahweh's commandments, not following a Babylonian Talmud or any other text.
The Encyclopedias - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Abib says: "ABIB: a'-bib ('abhibh, young ear of barley or other grain, Exodus 9:31; Leviticus 2:14): The first month of the Israelite year, called Nisan in Nehemiah 2:1; Esther 3:7, is Abib in Exodus 13:4; 23:15; 34:18; compare Deuteronomy 16:1. Abib is not properly a name of a month, but part of a descriptive phrase, "the month of young ears of grain." This may indicate the Israelite way of determining the new year (Exodus 12:2), the year beginning with the new moon nearest or next preceding this stage of the growth of the barley. The year thus indicated was practically the same with the old Babylonian year, and presumably came in with Abraham. The Pentateuchal laws do not introduce it, though they define it, perhaps to distinguish it from the Egyptian wandering year."
We use Abib as the name of the first scriptural month instead of the term Nisan because it has been proven that Nisan is a Babylonian mighty one of spring. Abib means 'green ears'. Thus, we can read Deuteronomy 16:1 through a literal translation of the Hebrew words. Observe is translated from the Hebrew word shamor and means "to watch for, as with alertness." Month is from the Hebrew word chodesh and means"new moon". Abib is defined in the Hebrew lexicons as "green ears", also meaning springtime. They give the following definitions: Youngs Analytical Concordance, "sprouting, budding, new moon of April or March"; Strongs Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, "to be tender, green, a young ear of grain;" Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon, "from a root meaning to produce fruit, especially early fruit."
Now we may readily comprehend which month we are to choose in which to keep the Passover to Yahweh. Yjis same month of Abib (green ears of first fruits) is to be the first month of the year for us, Exodus 12:2. Please see also Exodus 13:4 and 23:15, 17, also 34:18. In each case Yahweh's Word names the month for us and we find that is is called Abib or green ears. The modern Hebrew dictionary defines it as "spring" and in current Hebrew writing it is spelled Aviv. The Assemblies of Yahweh members do not use the name Nisan, since Nisan is the name of the pagan Babylonian mighty one of spring (but spring specified in a different, pagan way) which the Jews carried back to Judea with them after the captivity. If we now read Deuteronomy 16:1, inserting the literal translation of the Hebrew words it reads "Watch for the new moon of green ears, and keep the passover unto Yahweh". What we thus find is that Yahweh's calendar is always set visibly by observation, not by calculation as is common today by most groups who attempt to keep the law of Yahweh.
Hi Harel13. Is it though? Matthew 16:12 clearly illustrates that leaven represents false doctrine.
I stand by what I said. Israel escaped from Egypt. You must recall that the Israelites were in bondage, and many times it is said that "Pharaoh’s heart is stubborn, he refuses to let the people go." Egypt was a land of sin and Yahweh freed the Israelites from that land, as a result, I always consider that they escaped from that land. Dictionary.com says of the word 'escape': "to slip or get away, as from confinement or restraint; gain or regain liberty:to escape from jail.to slip away from pursuit or peril; avoid capture, punishment, or any threatened evil." But it's true, Yahweh did lead them out through Moses.
haha, yes. Well they are many instances in the Bible where Yahweh has a literal and yet also figurative or prophetic message overlaid which Yahweh's people can understand. Yahweh's thoughts are far higher than our own (Isaiah 55:9), he is able to do this. But in terms of bread, you can read Genesis 40:15-17 and on, and read how the Bakers dream regarding baskets of white bread on his head turned out to represent his body. The birds would eat his body. You see, Yahweh has shown his servants what His Word means, if we use the Word to interpret itself.
No, rather the Bible explains itself, as I mentioned in the previous paragraph.
Yes, and the leaven corrupts.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
You don’t live off of bread alone. — Jesus