Jesus as an antithesis to Passover

[metis]

Not a fan of falafel, though...

Oh, the shame!

 

[Harel13]

Oh, the shame!

Yes, it's practically heresy in Israel.

 

[Harel13]

You don’t live off of bread alone. — Jesus

Isn't that Deuteronomy?

 

[Harel13]

The wafers used in Christian services are equally bland and cardboard like

I'll be the judge of that. Although, likely not. I don't see myself eating Christian wafers...ever.

 

[metis]

And about your argument itself - would you not expect your god in drawing symbolic parallels, to do so perfectly?

Well, even if so, I don't assume that we have the actual recording.

I don't assume that such parallels would have to be exact because if that were the case, they wouldn't any longer be symbolic but would actually be the original. IOW, the symbols are not the exact thing that they symbolize.

As you know, even though Torah is linear in time, there's sorta like flashbacks whereas somethings may be repeated but not precisely the same, such as the two creation accounts [Gen. 1:1 and 2:4-- the order is slightly different].

 

[Flankerl]

Yes, and the leaven corrupts.

Not found anywhere in the Tanakh.
Not that you'd know.

 

[VoidCat]

falafel

I just googled what this is and...WANT!
Imma have to find a recipe and see if staff here at the group home will let me make it

 

[Harel13]

I blame Paul, Peter, John, Matthew and Mark.

Wait... they were Jewish!

And a most self-hating bunch they were.

 

[Harel13]

You say the lamb is not the subject of this thread, but it is.

It really isn't. I think I would know what the subject of a thread is as the starter of the thread.

Is it though?

Indeed it is, in the framework of how the RF rules work.

Israel escaped from Egypt.

There's a reason the Tanach calls it יציאת מצרים, the exiting of Egypt and not בריחת מצרים, the escape from Egypt. Pharaoh told them to leave, not to "escape".

No, rather the Bible explains itself, as I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

But only when it fits Jesus to your liking.

 

[BilliardsBall]

A number of recent posts related to Jesus rising on Easter or the like made me realize that this would make Jesus kind of the opposite of one of the main ideas of Passover, which is ironic because Christians consider him to be the ultimate Passover lamb.

Let me explain: During Passover, Jews eat unleavened bread, called "matzah" in Hebrew. This is in memory of the bread that the Israelites took with them out of Egypt which didn't rise because they left hurriedly. You can probably already tell where I'm going with this...

The Israelites were hurriedly taken out of Egypt. This seems kind of strange because as they were in Egypt for so long, God couldn't wait a few hours more for them to make proper bread? There are many answers to this question, but the general idea is that it was necessary for the Israelites to leave in a hurry, and it was likewise necessary for the bread not to have had enough time to rise.

Jesus, on the other hand, is said to have risen after three days. In other words, he was in no real hurry, and he rose, just like the sort of bread that is not consumed on Passover.

So it seems to me difficult to suggest that Jesus somehow fulfilled Passover or something like that. Quite the opposite, actually.

What?!

Jesus died on Passover, was in the tomb during Unleavened Bread, rose during First Fruits, gave the Ruach at Pentecost, was born on Tabernacles . . .

Jesus was on a cross and it was requested that they HURRY and kill Him before the celebration of the Passover. He was crucified at 9 AM (morning time of Temple sacrifice) and died at 3 PM (time of evening sacrifice and time of Pesach lamb sacrifices).

 

[Harel13]

What?!

Jesus died on Passover, was in the tomb during Unleavened Bread, rose during First Fruits, gave the Ruach at Pentecost, was born on Tabernacles . . .

Jesus was on a cross and it was requested that they HURRY and kill Him before the celebration of the Passover. He was crucified at 9 AM (morning time of Temple sacrifice) and died at 3 PM (time of evening sacrifice and time of Pesach lamb sacrifices).

But he himself did not hurry to get up. Bizarre.

 

[1213]

Because Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the commandments, fulfilled the Torah, etc, and that his death was deeply symbolic of Passover. I am challenging one particular aspect of that claim. And, note that it is not merely about the rising but about having risen slowly.

Jesus said in the Bible:
Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

I don't see any Biblical reason how that would mean he should rise like a bread, sorry.

 

[Harel13]

I don't see any Biblical reason how that would mean he should rise like a bread, sorry.

Nor did I ever suggest that.
Re-read the OP. I explain that a key idea in Passover is the hurried manner in which the Israelites left Egypt. Because of this, their bread did not have time to rise. Jesus, on the other hand, once having died, did not rush to come back to life. He sure took his time - this contradicts the hurrying part of Passover.

 

[Kenny]

And a most self-hating bunch they were.

that changed their known world... or so it is reported

 

[Flankerl]

What?!

Jesus died on Passover, was in the tomb during Unleavened Bread, rose during First Fruits, gave the Ruach at Pentecost, was born on Tabernacles . . .

Jesus was on a cross and it was requested that they HURRY and kill Him before the celebration of the Passover. He was crucified at 9 AM (morning time of Temple sacrifice) and died at 3 PM (time of evening sacrifice and time of Pesach lamb sacrifices).

Source: The voices in my head

 

[Brian2]

Yes I know that Christians are incapable of reading chapter after chapter and instead just jump in and out of the text whenever they please.

Isa 53 is a good one to jump into (starting a little before Isa 53 is also a good idea to get a context).

I am afraid that's a no no unless the Romans were forcing him to murder someone, pray to an idol or seduce his immediate relatives.

That is hard to understand.

 

[rosends]

Isa 53 is a good one to jump into (starting a little before Isa 53 is also a good idea to get a context).

if one were to do that, one would come up with a very different understanding of what this section is about, who is speaking and what the subject is.

 

[Kenny]

Nor did I ever suggest that.
Re-read the OP. I explain that a key idea in Passover is the hurried manner in which the Israelites left Egypt. Because of this, their bread did not have time to rise. Jesus, on the other hand, once having died, did not rush to come back to life. He sure took his time - this contradicts the hurrying part of Passover.

Again... I think we are trying to fit a narrative into what isn't there.

I don't even think that "their bread did not have time to rise" is really the issue either. I thought you were Jewish so I thought you knew this, but in case you didn't, here goes.

3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month they must each select an animal of the flock according to their fathers’ households, one animal per household

How much time between God talking to Moses to the tenth day of this month? How much time to select an animal of the flock and check for defects? Enough time for bread to rise.

In addition, “On the first day you shall remove leaven from your hous-es. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel” (v. 15).\

So it was more than just "no time for bread to rise" but rather "remove leaven for days. Plenty of time to rise but YHWH didn't want it.

"But if they knew it would be a bit of a rush, surely they could have started the bread making process earlier? Quite possibly, but it speaks symbolically of haste. The eating of unleavened bread is a tangible reminder of the haste with which our forefathers left Egypt. It is a powerful symbol that helps to bring the ancient story alive again today in our own homes, in a very concrete and crunchy way.
However, haste is not the only issue with this unleavened bread business. In fact, the imperative to get rid of all the hametz is made quite clear throughout the rest of the chapter:

“During the first month in the evening of the fourteenth day of the month, you are to eat matzot [unleavened bread], until the evening of the twenty-first day of the month. For seven days no hametz [leaven] is to be found in your houses, for whoever eats hametz, that soul will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is an outsider or one who is born in the land. You are to eat no hametz; in all your houses you are to eat matzot.” (18-20)"

Then you have the issue of "three days".

Exodus 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God. (doesn't seem like much of a rush here)

Exodus 10:2 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:

Exodus 10:23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

Exodus 15:22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.

Joshua 1:11 Pass through the host, and command the people, saying, Prepare you victuals; for within three days ye shall pass over this Jordan, to go in to possess the land, which the Lord your God giveth you to possess it.

Maybe there is something about 3 days!

 

[Flankerl]

Isa 53 is a good one to jump into (starting a little before Isa 53 is also a good idea to get a context).

Imagine reading a book from the beginning to the end.

Hah! Only a Jew would do that!

 

[Brian2]

if one were to do that, one would come up with a very different understanding of what this section is about, who is speaking and what the subject is.

No not really.