Jesus Christ (learning salvation)

[Unveiled Artist]

Oh. The person skating is say you. You fall into thin ice (convicted of sinful nature).Somehow you are taken from the water (saved from sin) no one is literally there to take you out of the water. Who saved you? (Without spiritual,analogy,metaphoric,and metaphysical language) how were you taken from water when you are literally alone?

Hope that helped?

Nup, im completely lost. I dont understand the question or how the illustration applies.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not why but how? Given literal example say if i had a child and she fall in thin ice i am literally there to save her. If i ws not there how was she saved. EDITand closer to the point why would that child or i believe she was saved by someone who lived over 2,000 years before our birth rather than say s neighbor who happened to be watching?

To answer your question, the person isn't only alive two thousand years ago; neither did something that happened two thousand years ago save anyone.
Angels are constantly watching this reality, and there are countless stories of people being pulled out of disasters.
So why would God save anyone, because of merit and maybe their affects on destiny.

 

[wizanda]

Not why but how? Given literal example say if i had a child and she fall in thin ice i am literally there to save her. If i ws not there how was she saved. EDITand closer to the point why would that child or i believe she was saved by someone who lived over 2,000 years before our birth rather than say s neighbor who happened to be watching?

Because saving someone on thin ice is dangerous, and isn't as simple as it seems.
So isn't it better to get knowledge from someone with experience in the subject, even if the book is two thousand years old.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Thank you. I understand the conviction. I dont believe this answered the questiin though ive always wanted to know who nicodmous is.

The basic question is how can a person who is literally drowning and magically taken out of the pool saved; who saved that person given he is alone?

But we aren't alone, that's the point. God is all around us.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But we aren't alone, that's the point. God is all around us.

I agree to an extent. In this question, the second part is because you believe someone has magically pulled you from water, why would you associate that person with someone who lived 2,000 years before your birth?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I agree to an extent. In this question, the second part is because you believe someone has magically pulled you from water, why would you associate that person with someone who lived 2,000 years before your birth?

That would depend on an existing worldview. My pre-existing faith in Christ would assure me that is the case.

If I was a non-believer at the time, I doubt I could associate it with Jesus specifically.

 

[Pegg]

Oh. The person skating is say you. You fall into thin ice (convicted of sinful nature).Somehow you are taken from the water (saved from sin) no one is literally there to take you out of the water. Who saved you? (Without spiritual,analogy,metaphoric,and metaphysical language) how were you taken from water when you are literally alone?

Hope that helped?

would this scenario actually happen though? I dont think it would.

But if you are asking this as to how it might relate to Christ, then the answer is simply that God has promised to remove death. Sin leads us to death because death is the consequences of sin. By removing death as a consequence, we are saved from falling into the ice.

???? i dont know, thats the best i've got.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I definately see that. Im thinking that we both know we are not alone. We know this is a fact. However, to take away religious terms that fact has to make sense in general (like the two and two scenerio is true for all); we cant separate universal fact that from spirituality.

So Id have to reason why I am pulled from the water without adding "because my family was watching over me." How do I describe in laymans not Carlitas terms how I was saved so that John in Africa and Jill in germany will know what I mean even if they disagree?
---
That would depend on an existing worldview. My pre-existing faith in Christ would assure me that is the case.

If I was a non-believer at the time, I doubt I could associate it with Jesus specifically.[/QUOTE]

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Its okay. Im thinking if it is a fact that you are saved by your sins it should be likewise a fact a child can be saved without a rescuer. Since in both cases the rescuerer lived 2,000 yearrs before your time.

would this scenario actually happen though? I dont think it would.

But if you are asking this as to how it might relate to Christ, then the answer is simply that God has promised to remove death. Sin leads us to death because death is the consequences of sin. By removing death as a consequence, we are saved from falling into the ice.

???? i dont know, thats the best i've got.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Good point. The child cant read the book while he is drowning, though. Personally, instead of someone handing me a book while im drowning i rather they give me there hand. Since im alone i can only assume that im saved mysteriously by what I was taught, taught myself, or observed. I base my conclusion off of knowledge i already have.

If I had no knowledge to shape my views of how "i may" be saved, how and why would automaticly assume it was someone who lived 2,000 years ago?

Because saving someone on thin ice is dangerous, and isn't as simple as it seems.
So isn't it better to get knowledge from someone with experience in the subject, even if the book is two thousand years old.

 

[Kolibri]

Good point. The child cant read the book while he is drowning, though. Personally, instead of someone handing me a book while im drowning i rather they give me there hand. Since im alone i can only assume that im saved mysteriously by what I was taught, taught myself, or observed. I base my conclusion off of knowledge i already have.

If I had no knowledge to shape my views of how "i may" be saved, how and why would automaticly assume it was someone who lived 2,000 years ago?

A man rejoices in the giving the right answer,
And a word spoken at the right time - how good it is!
- Proverbs 15:23

Like apples of gold in silver carvings
Is a word spoken at the right time.
- Proverbs 25:11

How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of the one bringing good news,
The one proclaiming peace,
The one bringing good news of something better,
The one proclaiming salvation,
The one saying to Zion: "Your God has become King!"
- Isaiah 52:7

Giving a book and saying "Have at it," is rarely enough. Giving another person our time along with right words can mean everything.

 

[wizanda]

The child cant read the book while he is drowning, though.

If the child read the book before falling through thin ice, then it would already know how to get out of the ice.

Personally, instead of someone handing me a book while im drowning i rather they give me there hand.

If the person giving the hand, had read the book properly, they'd use the safest option available; which wouldn't most likely be giving you a hand, if you've only just fallen through thin ice.

Since im alone i can only assume that im saved mysteriously by what I was taught, taught myself, or observed. I base my conclusion off of knowledge i already have.

If you've read the book, you would see it has some good survival guides for when you fall through thin ice.... It can get very dark in the depths.

If I had no knowledge to shape my views of how "i may" be saved, how and why would automaticly assume it was someone who lived 2,000 years ago?

You wouldn't assume that, as you'd have no reason to..... Yet lucky us, we've got Jehovah's witnesses knocking on peoples doors to remind us.

 

[Kolibri]

You wouldn't assume that, as you'd have no reason to..... Yet lucky us, we've got Jehovah's witnesses knocking on peoples doors to remind us.

Referencing Romans 10:13-15?

"For 'everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.' (Joel 2:32) However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: 'How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!"

It usually involves more than preaching though. Part of our instructions are to "speak consolingly to those who are depressed, (or "those who are discouraged." Lit., "those of little soul.") support the weak, be patient towards all." - 1 Thess 5:14

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I dont think Im clear (to all). The analogy I used is literal just as Christ saving a christian is literal. If someone came and rescued me from drowning, no one would question the logic (for lack of less commonly used RF words) of that. Jane in Africa and Jill in Japan will understand that someone (or someone in a lifeboat) would be literally present for him to save me. They understand in order to get four and youbonly had a two you need another two to complete the problem.

Likewise it "should be" with religion. If salvation is a fact a believer can explain easily how he was taken from the water in plain terms (not spiritual, metaphysical,analogical) how he was saved.

For example, is his salvation (rats to be continued...you get what im saying?)

A man rejoices in the giving the right answer,
And a word spoken at the right time - how good it is!
- Proverbs 15:23

Like apples of gold in silver carvings
Is a word spoken at the right time.
- Proverbs 25:11

How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of the one bringing good news,
The one proclaiming peace,
The one bringing good news of something better,
The one proclaiming salvation,
The one saying to Zion: "Your God has become King!"
- Isaiah 52:7

Giving a book and saying "Have at it," is rarely enough. Giving another person our time along with right words can mean everything.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You wouldn't assume that, as you'd have no reason to..... Yet lucky us, we've got Jehovah's witnesses knocking on peoples doors to remind us

so since we have no reason to assume how was that peraon saved? Given he didnt have knowledge before hand and he is alone.

Kinda understanding what im asking?

 

[Kolibri]

I dont think Im clear (to all). The analogy I used is literal just as Christ saving a christian is literal. If someone came and rescued me from drowning, no one would question the logic (for lack of less commonly used RF words) of that. Jane in Africa and Jill in Japan will understand that someone (or someone in a lifeboat) would be literally present for him to save me. They understand in order to get four and youbonly had a two you need another two to complete the problem.

Likewise it "should be" with religion. If salvation is a fact a believer can explain easily how he was taken from the water in plain terms (not spiritual, metaphysical,analogical) how he was saved.

For example, is his salvation (rats to be continued...you get what im saying?)

I think I understand what you are saying. Plain terms of what it means to be saved. We then need to know, saved from what?

There is a sense of urgency when someone is drowning. But what are they drowning from? negative emotions? or does the water mean something else.

In physical terms, we need to grab hold of a person and help them into the lifeboat. This is much easier when the person drowning is trying to help you help them. Any nurse will tell you a patient who helps them transfer them takes a whole lot less effort then someone who is as if dead weight.

Regardless, when it comes to salvation, there is a need to know what exactly is the person's needs. What are they missing? When we have those things put into tangible ideas, we can proceed to help if we have the qualifications.

 

[sojourner]

Im serious guys. How is a person saved by someone who is not there? (Aka example) salvation could not be a fact if there is no ability to be saved when alone.

The problem is that I'm not sure you can remove a spiritual question from its spiritual context. "Falling through thin ice" isn't the same thing as spiritual salvation (which I believe is largely metaphorical). For me, God is always "there," because the world is God's body, and God's Spirit is as close as each breath I take.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The problem is that I'm not sure you can remove a spiritual question from its spiritual context. "Falling through thin ice" isn't the same thing as spiritual salvation (which I believe is largely metaphorical). For me, God is always "there," because the world is God's body, and God's Spirit is as close as each breath I take.

Gosh I dont know how to reply. Falling in ice, though, is inheriting sinful nature. When i am pulled from thin ice normally in our five senses we expect a person, rope, life boat etc to be what saves us or helps us out. In the case of salvation, believers are the victims drowning and they are saying they are saved from water without a person, lifeboatx etc near by. In addition they associate who took them out with a person who lived before they were born.

Now I believe God is life itself. "He" didnt create life. Those that save us are part of God and to me they are spirits such as family watching over you, getting messages from spirits that others call angels who warn or bless us.

For me to answer the question of my being saved...spirits are watching over me....would be generally illogical. I can only say im saved based on my own beliefs rather than seeing it as: a drowning person in the alantic with no lifeboat, person, etc without ability to swim who cannot logicaly survive.

In my example, because she has survived what may that method be without my using my beliefs to answer a question that should be understood or logical for all?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If Im drowning my need would be survival. Similar to a christian, they feel they have a sinful nature, so they too need to be saved.

In the former, the person drowining (john) does not have a book onhand to lesrn how to swim. He is alone in the middle of the ocean. And then suddenly he is pulled out. He lives.

Now I beliebe the spirits are what helped him out. You believe it is God. These are two separate beliefs that john may disagree with. Our beliefs dont make something true or real for someone else.

So objectively and not by our opinion he cannot be saved by Allah, God, Brahman, The Law, the Buddhas blessings. His belief and ours does not save him.

He wil drown if he does not literally not just spiritualy, metaphysically, metaphoricaly, neexs a rescuer. Since it is based on "no one"'s belief system, how was John saved?

Does that make sense?

I think I understand what you are saying. Plain terms of what it means to be saved. We then need to know, saved from what?

There is a sense of urgency when someone is drowning. But what are they drowning from? negative emotions? or does the water mean something else.

In physical terms, we need to grab hold of a person and help them into the lifeboat. This is much easier when the person drowning is trying to help you help them. Any nurse will tell you a patient who helps them transfer them takes a whole lot less effort then someone who is as if dead weight.

Regardless, when it comes to salvation, there is a need to know what exactly is the person's needs. What are they missing? When we have those things put into tangible ideas, we can proceed to help if we have the qualifications.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The point though is, the book doesnt save. The person drowning has not read and doesnt know of a book. The person helping him is a literal person whom does not need a book to reach in and grab th le drowner.

Since the analogy doesnt have a literal person as a rescuerer and no book is floating beside the drownee, he has to have been saved (since the analogy says he is magically saved) by someone or something.

Without using our own beliefs to answer this question since we differ (hence it cannot be a common foundation for truth), how do you explain how that person is saved...and...in that explanation, out of all the stories we can dream up, why someone who is not present?

(Thats like my uncle in Utah and im in california and im drowning and he saves me without him being there) same thing just this is distance with jesus its time period.

If the child read the book before falling through thin ice, then it would already know how to get out of the ice.

If the person giving the hand, had read the book properly, they'd use the safest option available; which wouldn't most likely be giving you a hand, if you've only just fallen through thin ice.

If you've read the book, you would see it has some good survival guides for when you fall through thin ice.... It can get very dark in the depths.

You wouldn't assume that, as you'd have no reason to..... Yet lucky us, we've got Jehovah's witnesses knocking on peoples doors to remind us.