Jesus Christ (learning salvation)

[lovemuffin]

Without using our own beliefs to answer this question since we differ

I feel like this requirement has made the questions hard to answer. Isn't the idea of "salvation" fairly specific to specific religions anyway? It seems to me that it's difficult to make sense of what it entails if you abstract entirely away from the tradition which gives the question meaning. Not every tradition asks "what must I do to be saved?" And in the context you are asking (Christianity, i.e Jesus), Christians will not agree that the one who saves is not present, or only lived 2000 years ago and not now. Nor is it possible from within the Christian tradition to give an objective demonstration of salvation, however it's understood, and it's already interesting just in that the protestant reformation understanding of salvation as justification through faith, which tends to inform the way a lot of people ask the question, is already a bit different from how it's understood in the non-protestant churches.

 

[Kolibri]

Rereading your original post, it makes no sense that the child would magically be saved w/o any savior. He could not save himself, and certainly his mother was not there to save him now that she was dead.

This however is not an illustration that fits what the Bible teaches.

The Christ not only died, paying the price so that we can have extended life in perfect health someday, but he was brought back to life to be able to actively intercede between us and the death penalty that we live under. He is and remains our living advocate, our priest who keeps interceding in our behalf. Jesus is alive today, just as he has always been alive since creation's beginning - except for the parts of 3 days he was not.

However, since the Christ is no longer living among us as a human, he, as a living person still, delegates his disciples to help others learn about him and his God. People are also taught how to maintain their saved condition - including learning all sorts of things that will either be critically important or will at least generally benefit them. It takes a willingness to be reproved repetitively to gain and maintain that condition.

Though Jehovah is high, he takes note of the humble,
But the haughty he knows only from a distance.
- Psalm 138:6

Respond to my reproof.
Then I will pour out my spirit for you;
I will make my words known to you.
- Proverbs 1:23

That is how the Bible addresses salvation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nor is it possible from within the Christian tradition to give an objective demonstration of salvation,

I tried. Best answer i can figure that its impossible to be saved if youre alone. It sounds like the conviction of belief "saves" the person. But thats not literal so if im drowning and have a conviction i will still drown. What makes salvation literal (it cant be the bible...many non believers read the bible and dont switch to Jesus. It cant be Christ since He is not here to reach out His hand and a lot of people dont feel they need to be saved...they arent drowning)

I dont know. Think ima give up on this one.

 

[Kolibri]

a lot of people dont feel they need to be saved...they arent drowning)

"On hearing this, Jesus said to them: 'Those who are strong do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. I came to call, not (self-)righteous people, but sinners.'" - Mark 2:17

 

[wizanda]

why someone who is not present?

We're not coming at this from the same angle, and the metaphor has confused the issue... I'm saying it is the knowledge that Yeshua had that can lead us to salvation; so you can also get that from multiple different sources.
There is no sinful nature, that is rubbish made up by Paul and i don't see it as helpful; it is like adding lead weights to the person falling into the thin ice.

The Thin ice to me, is like hell which is why i said 'the depths' with the devil smiley, as when you're in hell; the message Yeshua gave does help you, having already had a NDE once myself.

Yet he doesn't save you, that is rubbish made up by Christians again; any angel could, any person could... Who ever is first to the scene.

It is like the story of the man out at sea saying, "jesus will save me". Then along comes a helicopter and he says, "i don't need your help, jesus will save me". Then along comes a rescue boat and he says, "jesus will save me". Thus the man drowns and asks, "why didn't you save me jesus" and he replies, "i tried".

So it isn't the book that saves either, it is the application of the knowledge within it... Just the same as reading a guide book on 'how to save people on thin ice'.

Now say no one has read the book, the book never even existed; would there still be someone called Yeshua, that could offer a helping hand? In my opinion yes, as i think he was an arch angel before coming here; thus he could still cause miracles to happen.

To make my understanding of the ideology clear, his death doesn't save anyone; his life and knowledge did.

 

[sojourner]

Gosh I dont know how to reply. Falling in ice, though, is inheriting sinful nature.

No it isn't. Thinking you can walk on the water beneath is "sinful nature."

 

[sojourner]

they feel they have a sinful nature, so they too need to be saved.

But we're told in the creation myth that God created us "very good." (The qualifier "very" is only used with regard to the creation of humanity.) What we need "saved" from is our own erroneous vision of ourselves and the world -- not from our "nature."

Since the analogy doesnt have a literal person as a rescuerer and no book is floating beside the drownee, he has to have been saved (since the analogy says he is magically saved) by someone or something.

This analogy is incorrect, though. There's nothing "magic" about salvation.

same thing just this is distance with jesus its time period.

Jesus exists in all times and in all places, because "spirit time" isn't linear, as we perceive time. That's how, whenever churches celebrate the Lord's Supper, they are eating the same meal that Jesus ate (is eating) with his disciples.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"On hearing this, Jesus said to them: 'Those who are strong do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. I came to call, not (self-)righteous people, but sinners.'" - Mark 2:17

I understand. Thats your personal believe. In general not everyone who doesnt need a doctor, knows he is not sick (he just does ill things sometimes) is self righteous.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I like your response and the story about the boat. In my belief too, I dont believe we have a sinfuk nature,we have tendencies to sin. The knwolege from Jesus have saved many....that I understand. It is when a christian says his literal death and resurrection (rather than the knowledge we must die to our sins and be resurrected or saved from them) saves them from spiritual poverty. The two do two add up.

Jesus as an arch angel, I havent heard that before. Do you mind sharing your faith?
Id say Jesus is a spirit. Both work.
(To me your faith is like your first name. Its personal rather than orginzational. Thats how I view it, as a part of you. Hopefully without the bias that has been put around faiths in general)

We're not coming at this from the same angle, and the metaphor has confused the issue... I'm saying it is the knowledge that Yeshua had that can lead us to salvation; so you can also get that from multiple different sources.
There is no sinful nature, that is rubbish made up by Paul and i don't see it as helpful; it is like adding lead weights to the person falling into the thin ice.

The Thin ice to me, is like hell which is why i said 'the depths' with the devil smiley, as when you're in hell; the message Yeshua gave does help you, having already had a NDE once myself.

Yet he doesn't save you, that is rubbish made up by Christians again; any angel could, any person could... Who ever is first to the scene.

It is like the story of the man out at sea saying, "jesus will save me". Then along comes a helicopter and he says, "i don't need your help, jesus will save me". Then along comes a rescue boat and he says, "jesus will save me". Thus the man drowns and asks, "why didn't you save me jesus" and he replies, "i tried".

So it isn't the book that saves either, it is the application of the knowledge within it... Just the same as reading a guide book on 'how to save people on thin ice'.

Now say no one has read the book, the book never even existed; would there still be someone called Yeshua, that could offer a helping hand? In my opinion yes, as i think he was an arch angel before coming here; thus he could still cause miracles to happen.

To make my understanding of the ideology clear, his death doesn't save anyone; his life and knowledge did.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No it isn't. Thinking you can walk on the water beneath is "sinful nature."

I dont see the connection. In christianity a person is already drowning once they are born. They dont know how to ask for help until the age they understand their problem. Their drowning is their inherited sin. They dont know they need help from this sin until they know they how it affects them.

Thats howbmy analogy connects. Its not my personal belief.

 

[sojourner]

In christianity a person is already drowning once they are born.

No. Not necessarily. Not all Xtians espouse original sin. To assume such a universal stance for the concept is dishonest.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand everything but the magical comment. Since not all people believe God took that person from water, it is not universal knwoledge, its a mystery. So its an adjective to describe the mystery of this drownee salvtion given no one was physically there to save him.
Im speaking in general not personal belief.

The "not saved from our nature" i never got that impression from Christians. I always thought christians felt their nature is corrupted since the adam and eve and feel they have to have a savior for their spirit not just flesh as in our ego and such.

But we're told in the creation myth that God created us "very good." (The qualifier "very" is only used with regard to the creation of humanity.) What we need "saved" from is our own erroneous vision of ourselves and the world -- not from our "nature."

This analogy is incorrect, though. There's nothing "magic" about salvation.

Jesus exists in all times and in all places, because "spirit time" isn't linear, as we perceive time. That's how, whenever churches celebrate the Lord's Supper, they are eating the same meal that Jesus ate (is eating) with his disciples.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Since Catholicsm and baptist teach this, thats what i thougt the core of christianity is. They say if we didnt have an original sin, what would Jesus save us from.

No. Not necessarily. Not all Xtians espouse original sin. To assume such a universal stance for the concept is dishonest.

 

[sojourner]

I understand everything but the magical comment. Since not all people believe God took that person from water, it is not universal knwoledge, its a mystery. So its an adjective to describe the mystery of this drownee salvtion given no one was physically there to save him.
Im speaking in general not personal belief.

The "not saved from our nature" i never got that impression from Christians. I always thought christians felt their nature is corrupted since the adam and eve and feel they have to have a savior for their spirit not just flesh as in our ego and such.

No. Not necessarily. I can't speak from the RCC perspective, because I don't know enough of the particulars regarding the doctrine of original sin.

 

[sojourner]

Since Catholicsm and baptist teach this, thats what i thougt the core of christianity is. They say if we didnt have an original sin, what would Jesus save us from.

What makes the Baptists the "core of Christianity??" Same for the RCC?

 

[lovemuffin]

Some kind of belief in the fall of Adam/original sin is pretty universal in Christianity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The RCC is the only Christianity I know since I have personal connections. So its hard to see Christianity or Christ outside that lens. Most my family are baptist and thats on a completely opposite scale than RCC. The other denominations I dont know. JW have good sounding on their view of Christ. Id have to be a practicing Christian to know. I dont believe that truth can be divided by denominations that conflict with each other.

What makes the Baptists the "core of Christianity??" Same for the RCC?

 

[sojourner]

The RCC is the only Christianity I know since I have personal connections. So its hard to see Christianity or Christ outside that lens. Most my family are baptist and thats on a completely opposite scale than RCC. The other denominations I dont know. JW have good sounding on their view of Christ. Id have to be a practicing Christian to know. I dont believe that truth can be divided by denominations that conflict with each other.

Ok. That makes more sense. Thanks for the explanation -- it helps. Xy is much bigger and much more diverse than you're giving it credit for.

 

[wizanda]

Jesus as an arch angel, I havent heard that before.

The LORD has bared his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation (Yeshua) of our God (Elohim).

Based on this verse, would define him as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53.... The Hebrew does now say 'Salvation of our God'; yet regardless in the context of the sentence and chapter, it makes far more sense Yeshua was an Elohim to begin with, and would explain why he could defy the normal physics of this reality.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ok. That makes more sense. Thanks for the explanation -- it helps. Xy is much bigger and much more diverse than you're giving it credit for.

Ive noticed by the way why do you use xy or Xtian?