Jesus did not die on the Cross

[Jabar]

@katiemygirl Quran has no errors at all.

 

[Walter Russell]

@Walter Russell No, it is not give me evidence and if even so to a certain extent. And yes Qur'an has no errors. Bible has many errors.

What evidence does the Quran have that the Bible can't also produce? None, either way they're books that have been around longer than you and I, and you have no clue who's responsible for the words in those books, but we see who their benefactors are and that to explains their purpose.

 

[firedragon]

I have read a large portion of Josephus, focusing on the time when Jesus lived and died. I borrowed the book from a friend and just recently returned it, so I can't go back and look it up. I don't remember the surrounding verses, but according to what you wrote above, you do. So how about posting them so you can show me what it is you object to.

Also, you are ignoring the other historians who wrote about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Josephus was not alone.

Alright. Thats a valid take.

Pilate and Jews.

But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

The miracle worker. Jesus.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Paulina.

About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty. She was married to Saturninus, one that was every way answerable to her in an excellent character. Decius Mundus fell in love with this woman, who was a man very high in the equestrian order; and as she was of too great dignity to be caught by presents, and had already rejected them, though they had been sent in great abundance, he was still more inflamed with love to her, insomuch that he promised to give her two hundred thousand Attic drachmae for one night's lodging; and when this would not prevail upon her, and he was not able to bear this misfortune in his amours, he thought it the best way to famish himself to death for want of food, on account of Paulina's sad refusal; and he determined with himself to die after such a manner, and he went on with his purpose accordingly. Now Mundus had a freed-woman, who had been made free by his father, whose name was Ide, one skillful in all sorts of mischief.

This woman was very much grieved at the young man's resolution to kill himself, (for he did not conceal his intentions to destroy himself from others,) and came to him, and encouraged him by her discourse, and made him to hope, by some promises she gave him, that he might obtain a night's lodging with Paulina; and when he joyfully hearkened to her entreaty, she said she wanted no more than fifty thousand drachmae for the entrapping of the woman. So when she had encouraged the young man, and gotten as much money as she required, she did not take the same methods as had been taken before, because she perceived that the woman was by no means to be tempted by money; but as she knew that she was very much given to the worship of the goddess Isis, she devised the following stratagem: She went to some of Isis's priests, and upon the strongest assurances [of concealment], she persuaded them by words, but chiefly by the offer of money, of twenty-five thousand drachmae in hand, and as much more when the thing had taken effect; and told them the passion of the young man, and persuaded them to use all means possible to beguile the woman. So they were drawn in to promise so to do, by that large sum of gold they were to have. Accordingly, the oldest of them went immediately to Paulina; and upon his admittance, he desired to speak with her by herself. When that was granted him, he told her that he was sent by the god Anubis, who was fallen in love with her, and enjoined her to come to him. Upon this she took the message very kindly, and valued herself greatly upon this condescension of Anubis, and told her husband that she had a message sent her, and was to sup and lie with Anubis; so he agreed to her acceptance of the offer, as fully satisfied with the chastity of his wife. Accordingly, she went to the temple, and after she had supped there, and it was the hour to go to sleep, the priest shut the doors of the temple, when, in the holy part of it, the lights were also put out. Then did Mundus leap out, (for he was hidden therein,) and did not fail of enjoying her, who was at his service all the night long, as supposing he was the god; and when he was gone away, which was before those priests who knew nothing of this stratagem were stirring, Paulina came early to her husband, and told him how the god Anubis had appeared to her. Among her friends, also, she declared how great a value she put upon this favor, who partly disbelieved the thing, when they reflected on its nature, and partly were amazed at it, as having no pretense for not believing it, when they considered the modesty and the dignity of the person. But now, on the third day after what had been done, Mundus met Paulina, and said, "Nay, Paulina, thou hast saved me two hundred thousand drachmae, which sum thou sightest have added to thy own family; yet hast thou not failed to be at my service in the manner I invited thee.

As for the reproaches thou hast laid upon Mundus, I value not the business of names; but I rejoice in the pleasure I reaped by what I did, while I took to myself the name of Anubis." When he had said this, he went his way. But now she began to come to the sense of the grossness of what she had done, and rent her garments, and told her husband of the horrid nature of this wicked contrivance, and prayed him not to neglect to assist her in this case. So he discovered the fact to the emperor; whereupon Tiberius inquired into the matter thoroughly by examining the priests about it, and ordered them to be crucified, as well as Ide, who was the occasion of their perdition, and who had contrived the whole matter, which was so injurious to the woman. He also demolished the temple of Isis, and gave order that her statue should be thrown into the river Tiber; while he only banished Mundus, but did no more to him, because he supposed that what crime he had committed was done out of the passion of love. And these were the circumstances which concerned the temple of Isis, and the injuries occasioned by her priests. I now return to the relation of what happened about this time to the Jews at Rome, as I formerly told you I would.

Thats the context.

 

[katiemygirl]

Alright. Thats a valid take.

Pilate and Jews.

But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

The miracle worker. Jesus.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Paulina.

About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty. She was married to Saturninus, one that was every way answerable to her in an excellent character. Decius Mundus fell in love with this woman, who was a man very high in the equestrian order; and as she was of too great dignity to be caught by presents, and had already rejected them, though they had been sent in great abundance, he was still more inflamed with love to her, insomuch that he promised to give her two hundred thousand Attic drachmae for one night's lodging; and when this would not prevail upon her, and he was not able to bear this misfortune in his amours, he thought it the best way to famish himself to death for want of food, on account of Paulina's sad refusal; and he determined with himself to die after such a manner, and he went on with his purpose accordingly. Now Mundus had a freed-woman, who had been made free by his father, whose name was Ide, one skillful in all sorts of mischief.

This woman was very much grieved at the young man's resolution to kill himself, (for he did not conceal his intentions to destroy himself from others,) and came to him, and encouraged him by her discourse, and made him to hope, by some promises she gave him, that he might obtain a night's lodging with Paulina; and when he joyfully hearkened to her entreaty, she said she wanted no more than fifty thousand drachmae for the entrapping of the woman. So when she had encouraged the young man, and gotten as much money as she required, she did not take the same methods as had been taken before, because she perceived that the woman was by no means to be tempted by money; but as she knew that she was very much given to the worship of the goddess Isis, she devised the following stratagem: She went to some of Isis's priests, and upon the strongest assurances [of concealment], she persuaded them by words, but chiefly by the offer of money, of twenty-five thousand drachmae in hand, and as much more when the thing had taken effect; and told them the passion of the young man, and persuaded them to use all means possible to beguile the woman. So they were drawn in to promise so to do, by that large sum of gold they were to have. Accordingly, the oldest of them went immediately to Paulina; and upon his admittance, he desired to speak with her by herself. When that was granted him, he told her that he was sent by the god Anubis, who was fallen in love with her, and enjoined her to come to him. Upon this she took the message very kindly, and valued herself greatly upon this condescension of Anubis, and told her husband that she had a message sent her, and was to sup and lie with Anubis; so he agreed to her acceptance of the offer, as fully satisfied with the chastity of his wife. Accordingly, she went to the temple, and after she had supped there, and it was the hour to go to sleep, the priest shut the doors of the temple, when, in the holy part of it, the lights were also put out. Then did Mundus leap out, (for he was hidden therein,) and did not fail of enjoying her, who was at his service all the night long, as supposing he was the god; and when he was gone away, which was before those priests who knew nothing of this stratagem were stirring, Paulina came early to her husband, and told him how the god Anubis had appeared to her. Among her friends, also, she declared how great a value she put upon this favor, who partly disbelieved the thing, when they reflected on its nature, and partly were amazed at it, as having no pretense for not believing it, when they considered the modesty and the dignity of the person. But now, on the third day after what had been done, Mundus met Paulina, and said, "Nay, Paulina, thou hast saved me two hundred thousand drachmae, which sum thou sightest have added to thy own family; yet hast thou not failed to be at my service in the manner I invited thee.

As for the reproaches thou hast laid upon Mundus, I value not the business of names; but I rejoice in the pleasure I reaped by what I did, while I took to myself the name of Anubis." When he had said this, he went his way. But now she began to come to the sense of the grossness of what she had done, and rent her garments, and told her husband of the horrid nature of this wicked contrivance, and prayed him not to neglect to assist her in this case. So he discovered the fact to the emperor; whereupon Tiberius inquired into the matter thoroughly by examining the priests about it, and ordered them to be crucified, as well as Ide, who was the occasion of their perdition, and who had contrived the whole matter, which was so injurious to the woman. He also demolished the temple of Isis, and gave order that her statue should be thrown into the river Tiber; while he only banished Mundus, but did no more to him, because he supposed that what crime he had committed was done out of the passion of love. And these were the circumstances which concerned the temple of Isis, and the injuries occasioned by her priests. I now return to the relation of what happened about this time to the Jews at Rome, as I formerly told you I would.

Thats the context.

Thank you for posting the context. It makes me want to borrow the Josephus book from my friend again.

But the fact is the context in no way changes the fact that Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross, and that's the topic of the thread.

I can understand the objection to certain parts of the Josephus passage. Josephus, being an unbeliever, probably would not have said that Jesus was the Christ (Messiah). But I don't doubt for a second the part he wrote about Pilate condemning Jesus to the cross for the simple reason that other historians have written the same thing. The evidence for Jesus dying on the cross is overwhelming.

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl Quran has no errors at all.

You say Quran has no errors at all, yet I find many errors.

Error #1
If the words of the Quran came from Allah, why did he say that christians worshiped Mary as part of the trinity? Wouldn't an all knowing Allah know what the christian trinity was?

Christians have NEVER believed Mary was part of the trinity. They believe the trinity to be Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

"And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?" Sura 5:116

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl The Qur'an speaks of the Bible, however does not claim that it is was given by God. The Bible is tampered with throughout time which lead to the New testament. The Old testament believers are Muslims and follow Islam. The Old testament was a early revelation that follows Islam however through time the New testament is made when tampered with and corrupted. Exactly! The Bible at the time when Quran stated that was not the new testament, this Old Testament was revealed not by God but of man. Jesus was not crucified as in

• Isaiah 53:10 and Psalm 91:16 declare that Jesus' life will be EXTENDED! [1] [2]

Making outrageous statements are meaningless without proof. It is a waste of time.

You jump from one thing to another, without proof.

 

[Jabar]

@katiemygirl It is obvious that you either looked at a mistranslation or made a misconception. Do not jump to conclusions saying you gave the Quran an error because you did not.

 

[Jabar]

@kateismygirl Read this because your knowledge in religion is very limited. http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/mary_worship.htm

 

[firedragon]

You say Quran has no errors at all, yet I find many errors.

Error #1
If the words of the Quran came from Allah, why did he say that christians worshiped Mary as part of the trinity? Wouldn't an all knowing Allah know what the christian trinity was?

Christians have NEVER believed Mary was part of the trinity. They believe the trinity to be Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

"And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?" Sura 5:116

It does not say worshiped.

It says deity. Its not God, its Ilah. Or deity.

Nevertheless, when you say Christians NEVER believed Mary was part of the trinity you are wrong.

But the point is, it means deity. Because Islam is about Monotheism, not even Jesus can be taken as a deity. Not Muhammed or Moses. Millions take Mother Mary as deity or saint.

This Quran taking the trinity wrong is a hacked apologetic theory. Bears no weight.

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl It is obvious that you either looked at a mistranslation or made a misconception. Do not jump to conclusions saying you gave the Quran an error because you did not.

Which version of the Quran is the correct one?

Please post the Sura 5:116 from whatever version you believe is the correct one. Tell me what version you are using.

 

[Jabar]

@katiemygirl
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
The next verse says:
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

 

[katiemygirl]

It does not say worshiped.

It says deity. Its not God, its Ilah. Or deity.

Nevertheless, when you say Christians NEVER believed Mary was part of the trinity you are wrong.

But the point is, it means deity. Because Islam is about Monotheism, not even Jesus can be taken as a deity. Not Muhammed or Moses. Millions take Mother Mary as deity or saint.

This Quran taking the trinity wrong is a hacked apologetic theory. Bears no weight.

Please provide proof that prior to the Quran being written, christians worshiped Mary as part of the trinity.

I would also ask you to provide Sura 5:116 from the version of the Quran you think is the correct one. Tell me which version you are using.

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

What version of the Quran is this from, which you posted?

It looks to be a paraphrase of the version I posted. I see nothing in either version to dispel what I said in my post to you. Allah has written that the trinity consists of Allah, Jesus and Mary. Christians have NEVER viewed Mary as part of the trinity.

"And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?" Sura 5:116

 

[Jabar]

@katiemygirl Sahih international, the version is not of importance, the importance is if it gives the actual meaning of what Allah S.W.A.T revealed.

 

[firedragon]

Thank you for posting the context. It makes me want to borrow the Josephus book from my friend again.

But the fact is the context in no way changes the fact that Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross, and that's the topic of the thread.

I can understand the objection to certain parts of the Josephus passage. Josephus, being an unbeliever, probably would not have said that Jesus was the Christ (Messiah). But I don't doubt for a second the part he wrote about Pilate condemning Jesus to the cross for the simple reason that other historians have written the same thing. The evidence for Jesus dying on the cross is overwhelming.

Sis. I do not in any way to degrade your faith. Josephus speaks of other Jesus's as well. But this is definitely out of place. It does not match there. Also many analysis's have shown that the Miracle worker passages are later additions.

I am not an expert on Josephus and his works but there are many scholars who deem the Miracle worker passages as additional inclusions in the Slavonic version.

 

[firedragon]

What version of the Quran is this from, which you posted?

It looks to be a paraphrase of the version I posted. I see nothing in either version to dispel what I said in my post to you. Allah has written that the trinity consists of Allah, Jesus and Mary. Christians have NEVER viewed Mary as part of the trinity.

"And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?" Sura 5:116

Does it say "Trinity consists of Allah, Jesus and Mary"?

 

[Jabar]

@firedragon @katiemygirl The Qur'an remains with no error. Keep coming at me with these so called errors and me and firedragon will give you the message that Qur'an is the Furqan, the criteria to judge right from wrong.

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl Sahih international, the version is not of importance, the importance is if it gives the actual meaning of what Allah S.W.A.T revealed.

Please explain to me why the version I posted is wrong, and the Sahih International, which you posted from is cprrect.

 

[Jabar]

@katiemygirl Go on this site and see what it actually means and you figure it out yourself. If you read into it carefully you will see it does not say that and the version i posted was correct. If you object, then i will have to say you are merely being arrogant. http://quran.com/5/116 Once again to clarify, it does not say they are a trinity, when Allah will ask Jesus did you say to the people take me and my mother as dieties besides Allah? Jesus will say it was not for me to say that to which i have no right. So please read this carefully.

 

[katiemygirl]

Does it say "Trinity consists of Allah, Jesus and Mary"?

The word trinity is not used. However, Jabar's version says,

"O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?"

Three deities are mentioned in this passage. How is it Allah could say Mary was deity? If Allah is all knowing, he would have known that to be untrue.

No christian, prior to the writing of the Quran, ever considered Mary to be deity. Christians believe Father, Son and Holy Spirit are deities to be worshiped.