Jesus did not rise, Noah did not live 950. Their Ummah did

[InvestigateTruth]

Here are verses to prove that, in certain verses, Quran equates a Messenger with His Ummah:

إِنَّ إِبۡرَ ٰهِیمَ كَانَ أُمَّةࣰ قَانِتࣰا لِّلَّهِ حَنِیفࣰا وَلَمۡ یَكُ مِنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِینَ

"Lo! Abraham was a nation (Ummah) obedient to Allah, by nature upright, and he was not of the idolaters" 16:120

"So be patient ˹O Prophet˺, ˹for˺ Allah’s promise is certainly true. Seek forgiveness for your shortcomings. And glorify the praises of your Lord morning and evening." 40:55

““We have granted thee a manifest victory, that God may forgive thee thy past and future sins.”. 48:1-2

Here, Allah addressing Muhammad, as if He has been committing Sins and will commit sins later, for ot was not Muhammad who committed the Sins, but His Ummah. Thus, here, Muhammad, symbolically represents His Ummah, so, this verse implies "Muhammad is Ummah" just as Abraham was Ummah.


Now, if you understood this, explain what these verses mean:

"Noah lived 950 years"
"Every people have an End"

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:

nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise"

My answer: though Jesus was killed and crucified, His Ummah who was Hmself, did not die. It was exalted:

"˹Remember˺ when Allah said, “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you up to Myself. I will deliver you from those who disbelieve, and exalt your followers above the disbelievers until the Day of Judgment. Then to Me you will ˹all˺ return, and I will settle all your disputes."

Now, this verse:


"Every one of the People of the Book will definitely believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Judgment Jesus will be a witness against them."


Based on this verse, when Christ returns, All believe in Him, before His death. Before whose death?
Before Christ death. Though by this is meant before the End of Period of His Ummah.

 

[Link]

Here are verses to prove that, in certain verses, Quran equates a Messenger with His Ummah:

إِنَّ إِبۡرَ ٰهِیمَ كَانَ أُمَّةࣰ قَانِتࣰا لِّلَّهِ حَنِیفࣰا وَلَمۡ یَكُ مِنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِینَ

"Lo! Abraham was a nation (Ummah) obedient to Allah, by nature upright, and he was not of the idolaters" 16:120

"So be patient ˹O Prophet˺, ˹for˺ Allah’s promise is certainly true. Seek forgiveness for your shortcomings. And glorify the praises of your Lord morning and evening." 40:55

““We have granted thee a manifest victory, that God may forgive thee thy past and future sins.”. 48:1-2

Here, Allah addressing Muhammad, as if He has been committing Sins and will commit sins later, for ot was not Muhammad who committed the Sins, but His Ummah. Thus, here, Muhammad, symbolically represents His Ummah, so, this verse implies "Muhammad is Ummah" just as Abraham was Ummah.


Why does this matter to be understood and noted?

Because it is a Key, to understand other verses, such as this verse:

16:120 does not have to mean nation. Per hadiths it means he was a leader, that is he was a course towards God, a path to God.

As for verse 40:55 and 48:1-2 per hadiths it means the sins accused of him by polytheists (tawhid and claim to Prophethood), it says God will protect him from it. Since his "sin" in this regard effects the community and his concern is not his own life, but that of oppression his community faces due to the crime, there is a hadith that says Mohammad (s) took himself the sin of his community. Combining the two hadiths, it can be seen Mohammad (s) crime in vision of disbelievers, would have to be carried by the nation but God would protect the truth of Mohammad (s) through out time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

16:120 does not have to mean nation. Per hadiths it means he was a leader, that is he was a course towards God, a path to God.

As for verse 40:55 and 48:1-2 per hadiths it means the sins accused of him by polytheists (tawhid and claim to Prophethood), it says God will protect him from it. Since his "sin" in this regard effects the community and his concern is not his own life, but that of oppression his community faces due to the crime, there is a hadith that says Mohammad (s) took himself the sin of his community. Combining the two hadiths, it can be seen Mohammad (s) crime in vision of disbelievers, would have to be carried by the nation but God would protect the truth of Mohammad (s) through out time.

You can interpret it that way, and is not wrong.

It is about understanding the terminology.

So, when Quran says, Noah lived 950 years, this Noah is mean His Ummah. As Noah was the Lead of His People.
So, when It is said "to each Ummah a Term appointed", the period of people of Noah was 950 years. But, the Quran, says, Noah lived 950 years, just as it calls Ummah of Abraham, "Abraham"

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

You might have missed his part of OP, as I was editting:

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:

nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise"

My answer: though Jesus was killed and crucified, His Ummah who was Hmself, did not die. It was exalted:

"˹Remember˺ when Allah said, “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you up to Myself. I will deliver you from those who disbelieve, and exalt your followers above the disbelievers until the Day of Judgment. Then to Me you will ˹all˺ return, and I will settle all your disputes."

Now, this verse:


"Every one of the People of the Book will definitely believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Judgment Jesus will be a witness against them."


Based on this verse, when Christ returns, All believe in Him, before His death. Before whose death?
Before Christ death. Though by this is meant before the End of Period of His Ummah.

 

[Link]

You can interpret it that way, and is not wrong.

It is about understanding the terminology.

So, when Quran says, Noah lived 950 years, this Noah is mean His Ummah. As Noah was the Lead of His People.
So, when It is said "to each Ummah a Term appointed", the period of people of Noah was 950 years. But, the Quran, says, Noah lived 950 years, just it calls Ummah of Abraham, "Abraham"

You mean this verse:

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا نُوحًا إِلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ فَلَبِثَ فِيهِمْ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ إِلَّا خَمْسِينَ عَامًا فَأَخَذَهُمُ الطُّوفَانُ وَهُمْ ظَالِمُونَ | Certainly We sent Noah to his people, and he remained with them for a thousand-less-fifty years. Then the flood overtook them while they were wrongdoers. | Al-Ankaboot : 14

If we substitute, "Noah's people" for Nuh, it it would read "Noah's people remained with Noah's people". It does not make sense.

The word Umma doesn't always mean, nation. It can mean course/path, for example:

Or have We given them a book before it so that they hold fast to it? 21Nay! they say: We found our fathers on a course, and surely we are guided by their footsteps. 22And thus, We did not send before you any warner in a town, but those who led easy lives in it said: Surely we found our fathers on a course, and surely we are followers of their footsteps. 23(The warner) said: What! even if I bring to you a better guide than that on which you found your fathers? They said: Surely we are unbelievers in that with which you are sent.

 

[Link]

@Link

You might have missed his part of OP, as I was editting:

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:

nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise"

My answer: though Jesus was killed and crucified, His Ummah who was Hmself, did not die. It was exalted:

"˹Remember˺ when Allah said, “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you up to Myself. I will deliver you from those who disbelieve, and exalt your followers above the disbelievers until the Day of Judgment. Then to Me you will ˹all˺ return, and I will settle all your disputes."

Now, this verse:


"Every one of the People of the Book will definitely believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Judgment Jesus will be a witness against them."


Based on this verse, when Christ returns, All believe in Him, before His death. Before whose death?
Before Christ death. Though by this is meant before the End of Period of His Ummah.

How does everyone believe in his nation at the time of Mohammad (s) (which per Bahai Faith would be his end)?

 

[Link]

You maybe interested in these hadiths about the same word in Surah Auli-Imran:

القمّي عن الصادق عليه السلام أنه قرأ عليه كنتم خير أمة فقال خير أمة يقتلون أمير المؤمنين والحسن والحسين ابني علي صلوات الله وسلامه عليهم فقال القارئ جعلت فداك كيف نزلت فقال نزلت كنتم خير أئمة أُخرجت للناس ألا ترى مدح الله لهم تأمرون بالمعروف وتنهون عن المنكر وتؤمنون بالله.

والعياشي عنه عليه السلام قال في قراءة عليّ كنتم خير أئمة أُخرجت للناس قال هم آل محمد.

وعنه عليه السلام إنما نزلت هذه الآية على محمد صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلم فيه وفي الأوصياء خاصة فقال انتم خير أئمة أخرجت للناس تأمرون بالمعروف وتنهون عن المنكر هكذا والله نزل بها جبرئيل وما عنى بها إلا محمداً صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلم وأوصيائه عليهم السلام.

وعنه عليه السلام في هذه الآية قال يعني الأمة التي وجبت لها دعوة إبراهيم فهم الأمة التي بعث الله فيها ومنها وإليها وهم الأمة الوسطى وهم خير أمة أخرجت للناس.


Al-Qummi said on the authority of Al-Sadiq, peace be upon him, that he recited to him, “You are the best umma.” He said, “The best umma is killing the Commander of the Faithful, Al-Hasan, and Al-Hussein, my sons, Ali, may God’s prayers and peace be upon them.” The narrator said, “May I be made your ransom. How was it revealed?” He said, “You are the best imams ever brought out to the people.” He said, “You are the best imams ever brought forth for the people. Do you not see God’s praise for them? You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and you believe in God.” .



Al-Ayyashi, from him peace be upon him, said in the recitation of Ali, “You were the best imams ever brought out to the people.” He said, “They are the family of Muhammad.”

And on his authority, peace be upon him, this verse was only revealed to Muhammad, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him and his family and grant him peace, and specifically to his executors/successors. He said, “You are the best imams ever brought forth for the people. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is evil.” Thus, by God, Gabriel revealed it, and he only meant Muhammad, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him and his family, and his executors/successors, peace be upon them.

And on his authority, peace be upon him, in this verse, he said, meaning the umma to which Abraham’s call was required. They are the umma to which God raised, and from it and towards it. They are the middle/intermediate umma and they are the best umma brought forth for mankind.


The last hadith shows the recitation is about meaning, it's the same word, but Imams are saying it means equivalent to leader here. Also, path and leader can be synonymous, for example:

وَإِنَّهَا لَبِسَبِيلٍ مُقِيمٍ | Indeed it is on a standing road, | Al-Hijr : 76

The word there is "sabeel" (path).

But then we see the word Imam is used interchangeably for sabeel, because a road leads from something towards something, so can be a leader:

فَانْتَقَمْنَا مِنْهُمْ وَإِنَّهُمَا لَبِإِمَامٍ مُبِينٍ | So We took vengeance on them, and indeed the two of them are on an open highway/way. | Al-Hijr : 79

The word for way/road, here is Imam.

So path and leader can be used interchangeably. The Imams (a) are arguing in Surah Auli-Imran, it refers to them as leaders and does not mean nation here.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How does everyone believe in his nation at the time of Mohammad (s) (which per Bahai Faith would be his end)?

No, it means when Christ comes, people of the Book believe in Him, before His Death.
By "His death", means the Death of His Ummah.

Now, in Baha'i view, Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ, and All People of the Book will believe in Baha'u'llah, before Baha'u'llah passes away, according to the verse of Quran.

But, by Baha'u'llah's death, is meant, the Death of Ummah of Baha.

Remember every People have a Period.

The following verse, tells us, how long is the period of People of Baha:

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor." Baha'u'llah

So, according to this verse of Aqdas, the period of the People of Baha, is no less than, 1000 years, or in another words Baha'u'llah's Dispensation length is no less than 1000 years.
Before expiration of this Ummah, the Prophecy will be fulfilled and All people of the Book, believe in Baha'u'llah.

Right now, is the year 181, in Baha'i Callander. We still have at least another 800 years, to End of this Ummah. By then All people of the Book will believe in Baha'u'llah.

I hope it is now clear to you, what, the meaning of the verse of the Quran in OP, in my view is.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

"Noah lived 950 years"

Perhaps as the measurement of a man.

As seen here years are added:
"Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years". Isaiah


Like in Buddhism the age measurement concept is also used by saying people used to live to 80,000 years.

Here:

"In the past, unskillful behavior was unknown among the human race. As a result, people lived for an immensely long time — 80,000 years — endowed with great beauty, wealth, pleasure, and strength. Over the course of time, though, they began behaving in various unskillful ways. This caused the human life span gradually to shorten, to the point where it now stands at 100 years".

"With the recovery of virtue, the human life span will gradually increase again until it reaches 80,000 years". Cakkavatti Sutta.


While the Buddha said "I am the eldest in the world", and the number often associated with the Buddha is 84,000 (which is a bit higher than 80,000). So I think the Buddha was making a point.

A similar concept is used with height. Like in the Hadith that says Adam was 60 cubits tall, and that people have been getting smaller since.

But maybe looking for scientific evidence of giant skeletons is a waste of time. Because if thoughts make the height:

"Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?" Matthew

Then people have been getting lower in thought since Adam.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor." Baha'u'llah

So, according to this verse of Aqdas, the period of the People of Baha, is no less than, 1000 years, or in another words Baha'u'llah's Dispensation length is no less than 1000 years.

Baha'u'llah is claiming a known 1000 year prophecy. The return of Christ 1000 year rule.

But consider the German messiah named Hitler also started the Nazi 1000 year reich.

Perhaps they dont know what 1000 years is.

 

[Link]

No, it means when Christ comes, people of the Book believe in Him, before His Death.
By "His death", means the Death of His Ummah.

Now, in Baha'i view, Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ, and All People of the Book will believe in Baha'u'llah, before Baha'u'llah passes away, according to the verse of Quran.

But, by Baha'u'llah's death, is meant, the Death of Ummah of Baha.

Remember every People have a Period.

The following verse, tells us, how long is the period of People of Baha:

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor." Baha'u'llah

So, according to this verse of Aqdas, the period of the People of Baha, is no less than, 1000 years, or in another words Baha'u'llah's Dispensation length is no less than 1000 years.
Before expiration of this Ummah, the Prophecy will be fulfilled and All people of the Book, believe in Baha'u'llah.

Right now, is the year 181, in Baha'i Callander. We still have at least another 800 years, to End of this Ummah. By then All people of the Book will believe in Baha'u'llah.

I hope it is now clear to you, what, the meaning of the verse of the Quran in OP, in my view is.

It's in contradiction with your own paradigm, Per you Mohammad (s) is day of judgment of Isa (A) and so that should be his death. You are being inconsistent big time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's in contradiction with your own paradigm, Per you Mohammad (s) is day of judgment of Isa (A) and so that should be his death. You are being inconsistent big time.

No, here is talking about the next Resurrection, after He returns.

 

[Link]

No, here is talking about the next Resurrection, after He returns.

How can you derive that?