Jesus Dying for Our Sins

[viole]

What makes you think i would put on a red hat, and howl at the moon, even if the alien behind the moon were real?

anyways, i thought you had more substance to argue than this

Verily , verily I say to you: Because if you do not do it, the aliens will fry you with a laser gun, and some alienologists even say that they fry people so slowly that the poor guy agonizes for more than 10000000000 years before dying . So, why take the risk?

I am dead serious, why would you take the risk?

Your answer will also address exactly why I take the risk of Hell being true.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Do you have a problem with red hats, and howling at the moon?

Yes, it looks silly.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Is it? Is it exactly the same?

Yes.

Ciao

- vioe

 

[viole]

Would you rather get zapped by a space alien, or spend a possible eternity in Hell?

Like I said, it's your risk...if you feel the need to oppose Divinity and all Religious truth, that is... your problem.

Well, I told you. There is a debate among alienologists concerning the methods used by the aliens to punish whomever refutes to howl at the moon wearing a funny red hat.

Some say, it is simple and immediate termination, other say it is a slow and painful frying that lasts a billion years with the purpose of soul's cleaning, some even say it could be eternal. In any case, we should go for the worst case scenario. Better safe than sorry. Howling at the moon while wearing a silly red hat, is not such a big insurance to pay, after all.

So, under this premise, why would you take the risk? I could equally say that if you feel the need to refute wearing that silly red hat while howling at the moon, that is... your problem.

Again, your answer will be my answer.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

That is the problem. You don't have an argument.



... And, yet you insist that you are correct.
I've already stated my position; you're risking Hell , because, because you refuse to accept religious and Divine truth.

And you are risking eternal zapping because you do not submit to the authority of those aliens.

What makes my risk greater than yours?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Thief]

I am not sure that there is no afterlife. I am not even sure that I am not a brain in a vet manipulated by invisible aliens.

I would say both scenarios are equally plausible.

Ciao

- viole

God by definition is an ET

 

[Astravalon]

I believe God is moving through existence just as we do.

and what the devil decided for himself was not God's handiwork

I understand there are various takes on that point.
I'm coming at it from the belief that there is only one Creator behind
everything. Naturally, whatever comes forth from what one creates
is, by extension, one's own creation; a domino-effect, if you will.

Not every atheist is Hell bound. But why take the risk?

What complicates things is that there's more than one religion out
there which claims a hell for those who take the risk of not adhering
to said religion.

For instance, one could be avoiding Christianity's idea of hell by
becoming a Christian, but then they're taking the risk of ending up in
Islam's idea of hell as a result.

-

 

[Thief]

I understand there are various takes on that point.
I'm coming at it from the belief that there is only one Creator behind
everything. Naturally, whatever comes forth from what one creates
is, by extension, one's own creation; a domino-effect, if you will.

-

so as dominos....what I perform would be the result of Someone else's will?

only if I deliberately obey that will
denial and disobedience would be contrary.

I have posted elsewhere......it is the disobedience and self direction that prove freewill

 

[viole]

Is this a hypothetical question, which is therefore merely in theory. I don't have that problem, as a believer, in other words. If you are an atheist, yes, you might have that problem.

To say that atheists risk Hell because they do not believe is as plausible as saying that people will not get any Christmas present from Santa once they stopped believing in him. And equally scary. On second thought, not getting presents from Santa is vastly more plausible.

But that was a good question. Are you sure you are not risking Allah Hell? Why not?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

This is an argument from ignorance, or a non-positional argument, contextually. It is a good question in other contexts, however, not when the person has an adherence. /Technically, it could be any religious adherence, since many religions have Hell.

The rational position would be to believe in the religion with the hottest Hell, wouldn't it?

That being said, the thread question is getting sidetracked here, so I won't go into that specific question.

I wouldn't either, if I were you

We assume a positional stance, with adherence, in other words; Your question is better suited to atheists, or people without religious beliefs , so forth.

Not necessarily. It could be that God sends to hell who believes in God and sends atheists to heaven. Who can say?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Desert Snake]

Not necessarily. It could be that God sends to hell who believes in God and sends atheists to heaven. Who can say?

Ciao

- viole

You have stated that you don't believe in neither deities, or Hell, so...

Anyways, this question is your problem, as an atheist.

 

[Milton Platt]

The following came to mind when I was reminded that Easter was approaching. It got me thinking. . . . .

If I remember correctly, Jesus was put on Earth to save sinners from Hell and insure they could go to heaven.

And, as I recall, Jesus was one of three consubstantial expressions (a term I took from the definition of the trinity) of god.

So, in fact, god put himself on Earth to save sinners from the Hell he had created for them, or at least permitted it to exist.

God therefore went about his work on earth in the guise of a human, and being omniscient knew what lay ahead---the impending betrayal, crucifixion, and resurrection from his human form.

Knowing how his earthly life was to play out, and purposely orchestrating the whole thing, insuring that he would be betrayed, arrested, crucified, etc. why do people find his "suffering" on the cross and his resurrection so admirable? I don't get it.

First of all, he created Hell (or if you prefer, exclusion from Heaven), but why? The only answer I've been able to come up with is that he wanted his creatures, us, to need him. Need him to get us out of the predicament he set up for us. However, he didn't need it for quite a few years, during which time he sent millions of people to his Hell. Then he comes along and offers a way out to some of his creatures, but only if they sing his praises for being a good guy who had himself killed.

In light of the foregoing, isn't Christianity simply an insurance policy that demands that one buy into the notion that the crucifixion and all was some kind of true sacrifice, when, in fact, it appears there was no actual sacrifice at all? It is all a ploy to get people to praise him, and those who don't can go to H - E - double hockey sticks.

If I've missed some critical aspect of the story please bring me up to speed.


.

The whole thing's a mess, isn't it? First, it is highly immoral to require one person to pay the price of another person's transgressions. It's like I committed murder so they executed you. Second, this god supposedly created a hell and then condemned himself to it after a tortuous death....except of course, deities do not really die, ands he really did not stay there for an eternity, which is the actual punishment proscribed.. On the other hand, if he actually died a real death, who resurrected him??? Are you saying he was only one third dead? LOL. I don't know, but when you think of a god who is all knowing and and all powerful, you'd think he could come up with a better plan than one which would require him to kill himself as a sacrifice to himself to save people from a system he designed in the first place.

 

[dawny0826]

And who created the adversary, in spite of knowing full
well, in advance, that the adversary would do that (if, indeed, that's true)?

-

The crux of it is free will. It doesn't matter if God knows our choices, from my perspective. The choice is still very much ours to make. The adversary chose to rebel.

I don't subscribe to the notion that it's all God's fault. I could agree if free will was removed from the equation.

I tend to know my daughters well enough at times to know when they're going to disobey me, but, it's still their choice to do so. They know what's acceptable as right or wrong in my household. It's not my fault, even if I've a hunch that they're going to disrespect my parental guidance and authority, when they make the decision to go against me.

 

[dawny0826]

The word Hell comes from the word, Hades...it is also called, Sheol. It is the common grave of mankind. All who die are in the grave.
When Jesus returns he will not bring you to a spiritual life...he will bring you back to a physical life. Humans were not created to be spirits, but physical beings.
Religions teach after we die we go to heaven...not true. Have you not read, Ps 37:11..."But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."
Man was never designed to go to Heaven. The religions of the earth falsely teach Paradise is Heaven...Paradise will be on earth.

Then, why is there so much emphasis on the spiritual man? You seem to disregard the purpose of Christ's sacrifice.

 

[dawny0826]

Fine, but how about all those who haven't heard what one has to do in order to avoid hell? Just going to ignore them?

I don't believe that this is the way it works, personally. As I've posted, I believe that when one lives a life in love - they're living for God, even if they don't have a label for it or recognize God differently.

You're not going to find that in the bible, of course. I can't reconcile a merciful and loving God with one who would act to the contrary.

Yes I know, but what does this have to do with god using hell to punish sinners.

In fact, why even bother punishing those who don't toe his line? What does it accomplish?

Again...hell is reserved for the wicked, who deserve their fate.

Do your panties get bunched when criminals guilty of crime are punished for their actions?

You said

"I believe it was the adversary who set us up to be hell bound, not God."
​

Implying that it isn't god's fault that he sends us to hell. But if this is true then either he doesn't care if some of us go to hell, or he's unable to correct what the "adversary" set us up to be. Take your pick.

If someone wants nothing to do with God, why is it such a horrible notion that God honors that and remains separated from them in the after life? If someone is truly wicked, why is the thought of punishment for wicked action such an injust notion?

 

[Astravalon]

The crux of it is free will. It doesn't matter if God knows our choices, from my perspective. The choice is still very much ours to make. The adversary chose to rebel.

I don't subscribe to the notion that it's all God's fault. I could agree if free will was removed from the equation.

I don't see it as being God's fault either, as I don't believe God has faults.

However, I do believe that with power comes responsibility;
therefore, one who is all powerful would be all responsible.

I also don't believe in free will, at least in the absolute sense.
Humans have a limited range of choices they can make, but until
one can, through sheer force of their will, change who their birth-
parents are or their nationality, their will is limited.

As it is, even when we feel we're making free choices, those
choices are being influenced by a number of external and
internal factors which lie outside of our immediate control.
Once one realizes this, the notion of "free" will is less easy
to accept.

What's interesting is that if this were a creationism-vs-evolution
thread, few believers would have any problem with the idea that
all that exists comes from God as the one and only Designer. Yet,
it's interesting how this shifts a little when discussing where things
like hell and the devil come from.


-

 

[Astravalon]

Again...hell is reserved for the wicked, who deserve their fate.

Do your panties get bunched when criminals guilty of crime are punished for their actions?

Criminals aren't tormented pointlessly for all eternity with no hope of rehabilitation.


-

 

[Skwim]

I don't believe that this is the way it works, personally.

According to

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.​

Again...hell is reserved for the wicked, who deserve their fate.

Yup, and many more. Like those who simply don't believe in Jesus. Here are the terms for staying out of hell . . . . .or else:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.​

If someone wants nothing to do with God, why is it such a horrible notion that God honors that and remains separated from them in the after life?

It that's all it was that would be fine, but there's more. The wrath of god awaits (see above).

If someone is truly wicked, why is the thought of punishment for wicked action such an injust notion?

Think anyone who's truly wicked is sane? I don't. At the very least they would be mentally unstable---true wickedness is not normal, stable behavior---and we don't treat the mentally unstable like we treat the sane. We recognize that they aren't in complete control of their actions, which is why our courts make allowances when judging them. God doesn't do this does he? For god, someone who is truly wicked: insane or unstable, say for 70 years, deserves to be punished for it by suffering for all eternity. Personally, I find this highly unjust. Down here on earth we put people like this in asylums where they can be cared for.


.

 

[Brian Schuh]

One man can't take someone else's punishment. How bout I go into a court room of a convicted killer and say, "Execute me instead, let the killer go free!" Now if no human judge would agree to something that unfair, how much more so that God would not commit an injustice like that.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

One man can't take someone else's punishment. How bout I go into a court room of a convicted killer and say, "Execute me instead, let the killer go free!" Now if no human judge would agree to something that unfair, how much more so that God would not commit an injustice like that.

Would it be an injustice if a man had gotten himself into huge amounts of debt, to the point of starvation and death, but someone else came and paid off the debts for him, or rather even the lender cancelled the man's debts and said he'll pay it himself?