Jesus Dying for Our Sins

[Skwim]

The following came to mind when I was reminded that Easter was approaching. It got me thinking. . . . .

If I remember correctly, Jesus was put on Earth to save sinners from Hell and insure they could go to heaven.

And, as I recall, Jesus was one of three consubstantial expressions (a term I took from the definition of the trinity) of god.

So, in fact, god put himself on Earth to save sinners from the Hell he had created for them, or at least permitted it to exist.

God therefore went about his work on earth in the guise of a human, and being omniscient knew what lay ahead---the impending betrayal, crucifixion, and resurrection from his human form.

Knowing how his earthly life was to play out, and purposely orchestrating the whole thing, insuring that he would be betrayed, arrested, crucified, etc. why do people find his "suffering" on the cross and his resurrection so admirable? I don't get it.

First of all, he created Hell (or if you prefer, exclusion from Heaven), but why? The only answer I've been able to come up with is that he wanted his creatures, us, to need him. Need him to get us out of the predicament he set up for us. However, he didn't need it for quite a few years, during which time he sent millions of people to his Hell. Then he comes along and offers a way out to some of his creatures, but only if they sing his praises for being a good guy who had himself killed.

In light of the foregoing, isn't Christianity simply an insurance policy that demands that one buy into the notion that the crucifixion and all was some kind of true sacrifice, when, in fact, it appears there was no actual sacrifice at all? It is all a ploy to get people to praise him, and those who don't can go to H - E - double hockey sticks.

If I've missed some critical aspect of the story please bring me up to speed.


.

 

[Neo Deist]

The following came to mind when I was reminded that Easter was approaching. It got me thinking. . . . .

If I remember correctly, Jesus was put on Earth to save sinners from Hell and insure they could go to heaven.

And, as I recall, Jesus was one of three consubstantial expressions (a term I took from the definition of the trinity) of god.

So, in fact, god put himself on Earth to save sinners from the Hell he had created for them, or at least permitted it to exist.

God therefore went about his work on earth in the guise of a human, and being omniscient knew what lay ahead---the impending betrayal, crucifixion, and resurrection from his human form.

Knowing how his earthly life was to play out, and purposely orchestrating the whole thing, insuring that he would be betrayed, arrested, crucified, etc. why do people find his "suffering" on the cross and his resurrection so admirable? I don't get it.

First of all, he created Hell (or if you prefer, exclusion from Heaven), but why? The only answer I've been able to come up with is that he wanted his creatures, us, to need him. Need him to get us out of the predicament he set up for us. However, he didn't need it for quite a few years, during which time he sent millions of people to his Hell. Then he comes along and offers a way out to some of his creatures, but only if they sing his praises for being a good guy who had himself killed.

In light of the foregoing, isn't Christianity simply an insurance policy that demands that one buy into the notion that the crucifixion and all was some kind of true sacrifice, when, in fact, it appears there was no actual sacrifice at all? It is all a ploy to get people to praise him, and those who don't can go to H - E - double hockey sticks.

If I've missed some critical aspect of the story please bring me up to speed.


.

You are asking questions and thinking outside of the box. That is a big no-no in Christianity.

The answer I came up with is that the story is man made, as are all religions. I would not worry about it too much. Just live your life as a moral person, and go from there.

 

[allfoak]

If I've missed some critical aspect of the story please bring me up to speed.

It's an easy target to hit @Skwim, you never miss.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Being a christian I hear so many things about myself that are just not true .
Jesus died on the cross because the people choose the other guy.

 

[Skwim]

Being a christian I hear so many things about myself that are just not true .
Jesus died on the cross because the people choose the other guy.

So he didn't die on the cross to save anyone from their sins. Okay dokey. gotcha. John 3:16 is just so much blather. Interesting.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

So he didn't die on the cross to save anyone from their sins. Okay dokey. gotcha. John 3:16 is just so much blather. Interesting.

Sins is 613 in Judaism , the parent ,where ya wanna start want a list , maybe Jesus died for the sins that aren't really sins at all .So you didn't have to , by the laws of a foreign king or power.
Maybe was a compromise by God
Or maybe he just **** off the establishment preaching freedom and equality
Maybe john trying to lift the burden .

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

So he didn't die on the cross to save anyone from their sins. Okay dokey. gotcha. John 3:16 is just so much blather. Interesting.

Maybe he died on the cross so we can stop marching east ?.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

The following came to mind when I was reminded that Easter was approaching. It got me thinking. . . . .

If I remember correctly, Jesus was put on Earth to save sinners from Hell and insure they could go to heaven.

And, as I recall, Jesus was one of three consubstantial expressions (a term I took from the definition of the trinity) of god.

So, in fact, god put himself on Earth to save sinners from the Hell he had created for them, or at least permitted it to exist.

God therefore went about his work on earth in the guise of a human, and being omniscient knew what lay ahead---the impending betrayal, crucifixion, and resurrection from his human form.

Knowing how his earthly life was to play out, and purposely orchestrating the whole thing, insuring that he would be betrayed, arrested, crucified, etc. why do people find his "suffering" on the cross and his resurrection so admirable? I don't get it.

First of all, he created Hell (or if you prefer, exclusion from Heaven), but why? The only answer I've been able to come up with is that he wanted his creatures, us, to need him. Need him to get us out of the predicament he set up for us. However, he didn't need it for quite a few years, during which time he sent millions of people to his Hell. Then he comes along and offers a way out to some of his creatures, but only if they sing his praises for being a good guy who had himself killed.

In light of the foregoing, isn't Christianity simply an insurance policy that demands that one buy into the notion that the crucifixion and all was some kind of true sacrifice, when, in fact, it appears there was no actual sacrifice at all? It is all a ploy to get people to praise him, and those who don't can go to H - E - double hockey sticks.

If I've missed some critical aspect of the story please bring me up to speed.


.

Hell is a necessary result of God's nature being just, not something made for fun, and punishing those who are wicked. God had mercy on the wicked though, and planned that He would come to earth and take the punishment we deserved, bearing it on the cross. It is no ploy, Jesus truly endured that suffering and pain. And of course He saw it coming, He had planned it from the beginning, but being planned doesn't make it any less painful, in fact it means it was no accident but shows God's great love for us since the beginning.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Hell is a necessary result of God's nature being just, not something made for fun, and punishing those who are wicked. God had mercy on the wicked though, and planned that He would come to earth and take the punishment we deserved, bearing it on the cross. It is no ploy, Jesus truly endured that suffering and pain. And of course He saw it coming, He had planned it from the beginning, but being planned doesn't make it any less painful, in fact it means it was no accident but shows God's great love for us since the beginning.

Your a Brit ? In UK we don't send people to hell , only countries with death row do that .

 

[Thana]

The following came to mind when I was reminded that Easter was approaching. It got me thinking. . . . .

If I remember correctly, Jesus was put on Earth to save sinners from Hell and insure they could go to heaven.

And, as I recall, Jesus was one of three consubstantial expressions (a term I took from the definition of the trinity) of god.

So, in fact, god put himself on Earth to save sinners from the Hell he had created for them, or at least permitted it to exist.

God therefore went about his work on earth in the guise of a human, and being omniscient knew what lay ahead---the impending betrayal, crucifixion, and resurrection from his human form.

Knowing how his earthly life was to play out, and purposely orchestrating the whole thing, insuring that he would be betrayed, arrested, crucified, etc. why do people find his "suffering" on the cross and his resurrection so admirable? I don't get it.

First of all, he created Hell (or if you prefer, exclusion from Heaven), but why? The only answer I've been able to come up with is that he wanted his creatures, us, to need him. Need him to get us out of the predicament he set up for us. However, he didn't need it for quite a few years, during which time he sent millions of people to his Hell. Then he comes along and offers a way out to some of his creatures, but only if they sing his praises for being a good guy who had himself killed.

In light of the foregoing, isn't Christianity simply an insurance policy that demands that one buy into the notion that the crucifixion and all was some kind of true sacrifice, when, in fact, it appears there was no actual sacrifice at all? It is all a ploy to get people to praise him, and those who don't can go to H - E - double hockey sticks.

If I've missed some critical aspect of the story please bring me up to speed.


.

Did you ever watch the Passion? Mel Gibson aside, The way they depicted the Crucifiction was awful. I felt so sick and terrible after watching it (Which I imagine was the point) but that doesn't change the fact that Jesus probably went through worse. Even if you know something is coming, even if you know you'll survive it, does that make the pain you suffered hurt any less or mean any less? I don't think so.

What Jesus suffered wasn't just the Crucifiction, He suffered humanity. He suffered it so that when we die and go to Him we'll have no excuse, Because He lived, as we lived, and knows the pain of being human in a way we can't refute. The point wasn't just His death, it was also His life.

And if you don't like the concept of hell, then what does it mean when someone does something evil, truly evil? What does evil matter, or what is it worth, if it is not wrong but merely human? Honestly, you whine about the evil of hell but if there were no hell than what would evil mean? What is the point of justice, of redemption, of life, if there is no eternal consequence for who you become. Because it's not what you do that condemns you to hell, but the consequence of your actions that changes your heart and soul into something twisted and ugly. Evil actions aren't what condemns you, but your evil heart does. Otherwise God wouldn't be able to forgive our actions, if our actions are what condemned us. It's the unrepentant heart that condemns us.

Honestly, this is all in the bible. And you've read it, so why don't you know it?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Your a Brit ? In UK we don't send people to hell , only countries with death row do that .

I don't think there's anything morally wrong with the death penalty, and I don't see how that relates to Hell.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I don't think there's anything morally wrong with the death penalty, and I don't see how that relates to Hell.

Hell suggests God has opposition I refute it on that basis alone

 

[psychoslice]

Dying on the cross was just a symbol of us dying on our own cross, Jesus the man cannot save anyone, we must ourselves die and be renewed, that's all the story meant.

 

[Skwim]

Hell is a necessary result of God's nature being just, not something made for fun, and punishing those who are wicked.

Is this written somewhere or did you come to the conclusion all on your own. If it's your own conclusion, just what is your reasoning?

God had mercy on the wicked though, and planned that He would come to earth and take the punishment we deserved, bearing it on the cross.

Mercy? As I understand the sorting process, god assigns the wicked to hell. You do recognize don't you that a huge number of wicked, and other people have either not heard of salvation from hell through Jesus, or don't buy the claim.

Jesus truly endured that suffering and pain. And of course He saw it coming, He had planned it from the beginning, but being planned doesn't make it any less painful, in fact it means it was no accident but shows God's great love for us since the beginning.

If god suffered it would have been of his own choosing---he is omnipotent after all. So, my question is, would you feel sorry (I assume you feel sorry that Jesus/god suffered) for someone who deliberately hit their finger with a hammer? I see no difference.


.

 

[Skwim]

Did you ever watch the Passion? Mel Gibson aside,

Nope.

The way they depicted the Crucifiction was awful. I felt so sick and terrible after watching it (Which I imagine was the point) but that doesn't change the fact that Jesus probably went through worse. Even if you know something is coming, even if you know you'll survive it, does that make the pain you suffered hurt any less or mean any less? I don't think so.

Ah, you do know that Hollywood does take liberties, sometimes a whole lot of them, when it depicts history, don't you?

What Jesus suffered wasn't just the Crucifiction, He suffered humanity.

Sorry, but I don't know what suffering humanity is.

He suffered it so that when we die and go to Him we'll have no excuse,

No excuse for what?

Because He lived, as we lived, and knows the pain of being human in a way we can't refute.

So what difference would it make if you could accuse god of not feeling pain?

The point wasn't just His death, it was also His life.

What point, that he chose to feel pain? Exactly what bearing on salvation does god's pain have?

And if you don't like the concept of hell, then what does it mean when someone does something evil, truly evil?

It means they probably have some kind of psychological disorder.

What does evil matter, or what is it worth, if it is not wrong but merely human?

But it is wrong, and human.

Honestly, you whine about the evil of hell but if there were no hell than what would evil mean?

Where have I whined about the evil of hell? You're the one who brought up evil, not me.

What is the point of justice, of redemption, of life, if there is no eternal consequence for who you become.

I assume this is another question. The point of justice is to encourage proper behavior. As for the point of redemption, you'd have to ask god why he made it necessary.

Honestly, this is all in the bible. And you've read it, so why don't you know it?

You mean why don't I believe it? Because it's so full of irrationalities that it fails to convince. Not to be snide or disrespectful, but it would be like reading a Donald Duck comic book and refusing to believe ducks can speak English.

 

[Flankerl]

Being saved from Hell?
To go to Heaven?
Virgin births?
God impregnating himself into a woman?
God dying?

Sounds like Greco-Roman New Age stuff to me.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Based on the Christian version of events there's a notable problem with this.

Jesus didn't die. It was never a sacrifice. It nullifies saving anyone from anything.

 

[InChrist]

The following came to mind when I was reminded that Easter was approaching. It got me thinking. . . . .

If I remember correctly, Jesus was put on Earth to save sinners from Hell and insure they could go to heaven.

And, as I recall, Jesus was one of three consubstantial expressions (a term I took from the definition of the trinity) of god.

So, in fact, god put himself on Earth to save sinners from the Hell he had created for them, or at least permitted it to exist.

God therefore went about his work on earth in the guise of a human, and being omniscient knew what lay ahead---the impending betrayal, crucifixion, and resurrection from his human form.

Knowing how his earthly life was to play out, and purposely orchestrating the whole thing, insuring that he would be betrayed, arrested, crucified, etc. why do people find his "suffering" on the cross and his resurrection so admirable? I don't get it.

First of all, he created Hell (or if you prefer, exclusion from Heaven), but why? The only answer I've been able to come up with is that he wanted his creatures, us, to need him. Need him to get us out of the predicament he set up for us. However, he didn't need it for quite a few years, during which time he sent millions of people to his Hell. Then he comes along and offers a way out to some of his creatures, but only if they sing his praises for being a good guy who had himself killed.

In light of the foregoing, isn't Christianity simply an insurance policy that demands that one buy into the notion that the crucifixion and all was some kind of true sacrifice, when, in fact, it appears there was no actual sacrifice at all? It is all a ploy to get people to praise him, and those who don't can go to H - E - double hockey sticks.

If I've missed some critical aspect of the story please bring me up to speed.


.

Jesus said Hell was created for Satan and the demons (Matt. 25:41). It wasn't for humans because God desires that everyone (2 Peter 3:9) spend eternity for that which we were created; an eternal relationship of love,joy, and oneness with Him. Those who don't want that eternal relationship with their Creator have no option but to be separated with Satan and the demons.
The agonizing, depth of lonely separation which the Son experienced from His beloved eternal Father for the first time ever and the excruciating pain the Father experienced as He turned from His beloved Son ever while He bore the sins of the world was far more suffering than even the the physical suffering Jesus endured on the cross.
It's not insurance, it's not a ploy, and it's not a game. I think it is an infinite sacrifice, a focal point of human history (History), available for the benefit of all people, and an eternal reality with eternal ramifications for each person.

 

[InChrist]

Based on the Christian version of events there's a notable problem with this.

Jesus didn't die. It was never a sacrifice. It nullifies saving anyone from anything.

He did die as a human paying for the sins of humanity and He resurrected with the power of God offering new and eternal life.

Jesus' Death: Six Hours of Eternity on the Cross
http://www.ldolphin.org/sixhours.html

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Is this written somewhere or did you come to the conclusion all on your own. If it's your own conclusion, just what is your reasoning?

My reasoning is that I trust in God as the ultimate and absolute source of moral truth and justice.

Mercy? As I understand the sorting process, god assigns the wicked to hell. You do recognize don't you that a huge number of wicked, and other people have either not heard of salvation from hell through Jesus, or don't buy the claim.

The question is why God would save any at all, everyone deserves Hell.

If god suffered it would have been of his own choosing---he is omnipotent after all. So, my question is, would you feel sorry (I assume you feel sorry that Jesus/god suffered) for someone who deliberately hit their finger with a hammer? I see no difference.

It was suffering that we deserved, that God took upon Himself, not a random unrelated act, but punishment that would have been rightly doled out on us.