Jesus Failed Right?

[Trailblazer]

I didn't make that fallacy

I didn't say it is true because so many people believe it

I only said that it means he is not a faliure if the aim is to win followers

Okay, sorry if I implied that.

 

[Sargonski]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

We could say Jesus failed in some things .. succeeded in others .. but yes .. in many of the main areas he failed ... and in fact his very last words are an expression of Failure "My God .. My God .. why have you forsaken me" Even his God has failed him.

His mission .. to have people recieve and understand the Word of God .. which Lord Jesus -- "The Logos" - spoke through the Holy Spirit. I can't come up with any denomination .. that follows Jesus .. and the Catholic Church was downright Anti - Christ for the longest time .. in general the Church has either bastardized the teachings of Jesus or failed to focus on the main ideas in the correct way ..

And .. his main prediction was wrong - the apocalypse did not come during the generation of the people he was speaking to ..

but Paul .. that is just a complete write off. fellow never met Jesus . and often his teaching does not line up with Lord Jesus .. and is definitely not inspired in many places .. like when he tells us we should love the Nazi's .. be perfectly Obedient to Hitler .. . that was a bit over the top. .. The Christian movement was more based on Paul than Jesus. ..

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes it is. However accepting one's own ignorance is not an easy choice to make.

That is why with God, we can only practice humility, if we do not, we make ourselves partners with God and the Faith starts its decline.

Regards Tony

 

[Nakosis]

Apostles. Jesus' disciples have been countless.

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
dis·ci·ple
/dəˈsīp(ə)l/
noun
noun: disciple; plural noun: disciples
a personal follower of Jesus during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles

And Jesus knew it would happen. He called it. As for the betrayel. That one had to happen. Hows this a failure?

If one of your friends denies you and another betrays you, you don't that as a failure of your friendship?

And? Public executions used to be a form of entertainment. That treatment was very normal.

Yes he was treated normally by the people of Israel. Not as the messenger he claimed to be.

Not all of them, and initially it was considered a Jewish denomination.

Sorry, you're right. I should have said he came for the "people of Israel" most of whom rejected him.

This dependss. First it wasn't Paul but Peter, and what do you mean by "Christian movement?" As an organized religion Constantine is mostly responsible for that. Before then it was religion mostly afhered to by slaves, the poor, amd others of low social rungs, and they congregated in necessary secret in underground catacombs.

Yes, were is this church of Peter. Were are the teachings of Peter? Peter who Paul call out as a hypocrite. Peter who withdrew from Paul and the gentiles and kept to the Jews. Were now are the Jewish followers of Peter? Peter, who Jesus claimed would be the rock of his church. Where are they now? Where is this church of Peter? Where are the teachings of Peter. Peter was just another failure of Jesus. Peter turned out to be not so good at his job either.

Acts 11:26 "the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch"

 

[Nakosis]

That is why with God, we can only practice humility, if we do not, we make ourselves partners with God and the Faith starts its decline.

Regards Tony

Ok, but you claimed ignorance was a choice.
If you know nothing, how do you choose whom to listen to about God?
I have heard from many different people claiming knowledge about God.
If you know nothing yourself, how can you yourself verify these claims?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Ok, but you claimed ignorance was a choice.
If you know nothing, how do you choose whom to listen to about God?
I have heard from many different people claiming knowledge about God.
If you know nothing yourself, how can you yourself verify these claims?

Ignorance is not a choice; but many of us choose to remain in ignorance.
To seek knowledge, we must first acknowledge our ignorance.

 

[Nakosis]

Ignorance is not a choice; but many of us choose to remain in ignorance.
To seek knowledge, we must first acknowledge our ignorance.

The blind leading the blind.
That is not a criticism of you. It is a statement about the human race.
The more you learn, the more you learn about the depth of our ignorance.

 

[Nakosis]

He did establish the churches, and the churches have caused great harm. IMO, one must be very careful in trying to discern Paul's epistles, for they still cause great harm through certain churches.

Sure, success for one doesn't necessarily mean beneficial for the rest. Maybe if Jesus had be better at getting his message out this would have been a better place.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The blind leading the blind.
That is not a criticism of you. It is a statement about the human race.
The more you learn, the more you learn about the depth of our ignorance.

Possibly. But the more aware we are of our ignorance, the more humility we aquire. And humility is imo an absolute prerequisite for learning anything at all. And there are always those who know more than we do; always people we can learn from, evemn if they know but little themselves.

 

[Nakosis]

Possibly. But the more aware we are of our ignorance, the more humility we aquire. And humility is imo an absolute prerequisite for learning anything at all. And there are always those who know more than we do; always people we can learn from, evemn if they know but little themselves.

There are always many of folks claiming to know more than we do.
Better to listen to those I think who are aware of their own ignorance and continue to question what they themselves believe.

 

[Kenny]

Where I think your scenario is entirely possible, is that anyone can learn and live from Jesus' Two Commandments regardless of ancestry. But Jesus did say that he only came for the Jews, thus I tend to lean in the direction that the opening for the Gentiles likely came later.

I actually agree. At least, in my mind, I thought that is what I said.

 

[Kenny]

If I go and help someone, I'm not forcing them to love me. If I had divine power and show folks, I'm still not forcing anyone to love me. Regardless of what Jesus did or didn't do he wouldn't have been forcing anyone to love him. People don't work that way.

I don’t think what I said and what you said in this statement are contrary.

 

[Kenny]

Matthew 10:5,6 Upon commissioning His disciples, He commands them to minister to Israel exclusively: “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritan's, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

So Peter didn't listen to what Jesus taught them it seems.

I don’t think what you said and what I said are contrary. I said that Peter started in Acts 10 and that comes after Matthew 10

Paul was better at it than Jesus.

No. Different callings. Jesus came to open the gates of Heaven and to begin the construction of the House of God with Jesus being the chief cornerstone.

Why don't you tell me what you think his mission was. According to Jesus, he came for the lost sheep of Israel.

John 18:14
Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.

Matthew 26:42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

He came to defeat death, Hell, and the grave brought on by sin

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And to give back the authority to man.

Matt 28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[1213]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

Did you know that Christian means a disciple of Jesus?

…The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
Acts 11:26

Bible tells there were much more than 12 disciples, even when Jesus was on earth.

And coming down with them, he stood on a level place. And a crowd of His disciples, and a great multitude of the people were there from all Judea and Jerusalem, and from the coast country of Tyre and Sidon. These came to hear Him, and to be healed from their diseases,
Luke 6:17
Then when the Lord knew that the Pharisees heard that Jesus made more disciples and baptized more than John
John 4:1

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

I don't think Jesus failed. If he would have failed, we could not still read his words from the Bible. And atheists would not need to lie about him to make him look bad.

 

[Nakosis]

Did you know that Christian means a disciple of Jesus?

…The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
Acts 11:26

Bible tells there were much more than 12 disciples, even when Jesus was on earth.

And coming down with them, he stood on a level place. And a crowd of His disciples, and a great multitude of the people were there from all Judea and Jerusalem, and from the coast country of Tyre and Sidon. These came to hear Him, and to be healed from their diseases,
Luke 6:17
Then when the Lord knew that the Pharisees heard that Jesus made more disciples and baptized more than John
John 4:1

And where are they now? I find when I ask Christians about their belief they'll end up referring to the letters of Paul.

I don't think Jesus failed. If he would have failed, we could not still read his words from the Bible. And atheists would not need to lie about him to make him look bad.

You not reading the words from Jesus as he didn't write anything down. You are reading 2nd hand reports from unknown authors except of course the letters of Paul. Few doubt the historical presence of Paul.

 

[Nakosis]

I don’t think what you said and what I said are contrary. I said that Peter started in Acts 10 and that comes after Matthew 10

No. Different callings. Jesus came to open the gates of Heaven and to begin the construction of the House of God with Jesus being the chief cornerstone.



John 18:14
Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.

Didn't take.

Matthew 26:42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

He came to defeat death, Hell, and the grave brought on by sin

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And to give back the authority to man.

Matt 28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Ok, Jesus contradicted himself. Perhaps why Jews did question and continue to question his leadership. At least Paul was consistent.

 

[Nakosis]

I don’t think what I said and what you said in this statement are contrary.

Ok, but it seems a bit of a red herring to offer the argument that God couldn't have done this or that because in doing so it would have forced us to love him. So I'm always skeptic when someone bring it up in an argument.

 

[F1fan]

Ignorance is not a choice; but many of us choose to remain in ignorance.
To seek knowledge, we must first acknowledge our ignorance.

The dilemma is that an ignorant person isn't going to have the skill and ability to discern truth from false dogma. So what you describe is a trap any believer could find themselves in, and it already be too late. Notice atheists have the skill to assess religious dogma and claims, and the wisdom to reject them.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The dilemma is that an ignorant person isn't going to have the skill and ability to discern truth from false dogma. So what you describe is a trap any believer could find themselves in, and it already be too late. Notice atheists have the skill to assess religious dogma and claims, and the wisdom to reject them.

Can't say I have noticed any particular skills which are exclusive to atheists.

 

[F1fan]

Possibly. But the more aware we are of our ignorance, the more humility we aquire. And humility is imo an absolute prerequisite for learning anything at all. And there are always those who know more than we do; always people we can learn from, evemn if they know but little themselves.

Do you think yourself humble? Is it possible the Baha'i Messenger is not genuine, and you are mistaken in thinking he is?

Can't say I have noticed any particular skills which are exclusive to atheists.

That's bad luck. It illustrates how you don't understand reasoning skill, and as a result can't recognize it being used.