Jesus Failed Right?

[Nakosis]

I think it is important to note why Jesus came into this world.

For the lost sheep of Israel according to Jesus.
Maybe his was just kidding about that part?

It was not to garner followers during his lifetime. The mission that God gave Jesus to was to reveal God to humanity. That mission was accomplished when the New Testament was written and canonized.

Another job Jesus had to do was garner a few disciples. It was their job to go out and preach the gospel message, but they could only do that during their lifetimes, After they died it was the job of the Christians to carry the gospel message far and wide. That took time but it was accomplished because the gospel message had been preached to every nation by the mid 1800s.

Christians mistakenly believe that Jesus claimed to be a king, and that is why Christians believe that Jesus is going to return and rule the world, but Jesus did not make any such claim. All that is Paul.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God.

It was the destiny of Jesus to die on the cross as a sacrifice but that was not the main reason Jesus came into this world. Jesus came into this world to reveal His teachings which are essentially what saved humanity by changing their hearts so they would love God and their neighbor. Many of the teachings of Jesus also enjoin us to turn away from worldly things and self, but unfortunately those teachings are not what Christians pay attention to because they believe that the cross sacrifice and the resurrection are the only important things Jesus did. I think this is very sad, very sad indeed.

Then Jesus came so the Jews could pressure the Romans to crucify him?
This somehow benefited the Jews? Or was Jesus being misleading when he claimed to have come for Israel?

 

[PureX]

Jesus was a Jew, and he remained a Jew. And Jews then and now are not evangelical. They do not believe anyone needs to convert to Judaism to be right with God. So it's very unlikely that Jesus had any intention of starting any new religions, or converting anyone to Judaism.

What he appeared to be trying to do was to inspire a spiritual awakening among his fellow Jews, and among anyone else that was willing to listen. And he even promised that if we would allow this spiritual awakening to happen in us, it would heal us and save us from ourselves. And when enough of us were healed, the entire world would be healed and save from us.

THAT was taken to be an evangelical command by some of his followers after he was no longer around to guide them. But had he been, it's very likely that he would have disuaded them from creating any evangelical type religions.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

If Jesus had done what he said he was going to do, he wouldn't have needed Paul.
If he had been the Messiah for the Jews Prophesied by in the OT then Israel would have been the people to carry his message.

Jesus didn't work out so Paul was his backup plan I guess.

According to 1 Corinthians 1:10–17, allegedly authored by Paul, he attempted to restore Christianity's focus on Jesus. According to verses 12 and 13, he chastised some Christians for stating that they follow him rather than Jesus. And in verse 17, he claimed that Jesus had sent him to preach the gospel.

 

[Trailblazer]

For the lost sheep of Israel according to Jesus.
Maybe his was just kidding about that part?

Do you mean to gather up the lost sheep? What does that mean, what did Jesus say He would do?
What Bible verses support this for being the reason that Jesus came into this world?

Then Jesus came so the Jews could pressure the Romans to crucify him?
This somehow benefited the Jews? Or was Jesus being misleading when he claimed to have come for Israel?

Did Jesus ask to be crucified? I don't think so.
I still don't know what you mean by Jesus "coming for Israel."
Do you think that Jesus only came for Israel and not for the rest of the people in the world?

 

[osgart]

I think it is important to note why Jesus came into this world. It was not to garner followers during his lifetime. The mission that God gave Jesus to was to reveal God to humanity. That mission was accomplished when the New Testament was written and canonized.

Another job Jesus had to do was garner a few disciples. It was their job to go out and preach the gospel message, but they could only do that during their lifetimes, After they died it was the job of the Christians to carry the gospel message far and wide. That took time but it was accomplished because the gospel message had been preached to every nation by the mid 1800s.

Christians mistakenly believe that Jesus claimed to be a king, and that is why Christians believe that Jesus is going to return and rule the world, but Jesus did not make any such claim. All that is Paul.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God.

It was the destiny of Jesus to die on the cross as a sacrifice but that was not the main reason Jesus came into this world. Jesus came into this world to reveal His teachings which are essentially what saved humanity by changing their hearts so they would love God and their neighbor. Many of the teachings of Jesus also enjoin us to turn away from worldly things and self, but unfortunately those teachings are not what Christians pay attention to because they believe that the cross sacrifice and the resurrection are the only important things Jesus did. I think this is very sad, very sad indeed.

What teachings saved humanity? What about God did Jesus reveal?

I never met anyone who actually loved their enemies?

I can find better morality and virtue on my own with the help of a dictionary.

 

[Trailblazer]

What teachings saved humanity?

I did not mean to imply that the teachings of Jesus saved humanity. I meant that they had the potential to do so.
Love God and your neighbor is not the whole ball game.
Since most people do not follow the teachings of Jesus that tell them to turn away from worldly things and deny self, those teachings cannot save them.

What about God did Jesus reveal?

Lots of things.

I never met anyone who actually loved their enemies?

I don't think that is an important teaching and I don't really agree with it. Then again, I am not a Christian.

I can find better morality and virtue on my own with the help of a dictionary.

I am sure you can.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

Gaslighting. As if people are told to be poor teachers and preachers and to fail. Its like saying "Tell my why I should become a Christian," because you've mixed things up so bad that the only possible thing is to explain Christianity from scratch. Its against the rules for people to do so, hence not even a discussion.

We will never have a functioning forum beyond 10 or 20 people at a time. Its doomed to forever be a big joke.

 

[osgart]

I did not mean to imply that the teachings of Jesus saved humanity. I meant that they had the potential to do so.
Love God and your neighbor is not the whole ball game.
Since most people do not follow the teachings of Jesus that tell them to turn away from worldly things and deny self, those teachings cannot save them.

Lots of things.

I don't think that is an important teaching and I don't really agree with it. Then again, I am not a Christian.

I am sure you can.

Why not read Marcus Aurelius, or Cicero instead? At least they don't feign the wisdom of a perfect and holy God like the Bible does. And there is useful wisdom in what they say.

Every book on wisdom should be read with skepticism, objectivity, and in full recognition of the humanness of the authors.


There's better books out there than the Gospels. Prove me wrong?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If only he had been more convincing like Paul. Imagine the strength of Israel behind the message of God.

They are very convincing, only if we choose to listen.

Alao in the time of the Messengers, humanity is at its lowest morals, and human life is meaningless to those in power. As an example, many hundreds of thousands flocked to the Message given by the Bab, but allowed persecution from the wayward divines of the age and their own ideas to diminish that light.

As the years roll on, the wisdom given in the Message becomes the apex of our goals and many embrace that Message. Not everyone will embrace the Messages, but that does not diminish its potential.

Regards Tony

 

[Colt]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

People failed Jesus but his Gospel will eventually transform future generations that inherit this earth.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right.

Convert people from what?

 

[Trailblazer]

Every book on wisdom should be read with skepticism, objectivity, and in full recognition of the humanness of the authors.

Indeed they should be read that way, and the Bible authors were only human.

There's better books out there than the Gospels.

I believe that there are better books than the Gospels, but that is only my personal opinion.

Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

Prove me wrong?

I just proved you are right.

 

[Nakosis]

Convert people from what?

To his view of God.

 

[Rival]

The story of Jesus as a substitute for the punishment of sin is nonsensical, and thus a masochistic failure. As far as justice goes it makes absolutely no sense. An all powerful God has to, by limitation of power and necessity of justice, subject His own supposedly innocent Son to extreme torture and execution by human hands in order to invoke mercy upon all humans. Absolute gibberish! As if an all powerful God must come in human form to endure ritualistic, blood sacrifice to atone for others sins is evidence that the Jesus story is man made and cultish.

The message of punishing the innocent for the deeds of the guilty is completely ridiculous, and a major failure of many humans who buy into this.

The message of becoming a transformed nature of goodness and innocence through fear of God because of hell, and acceptance of Jesus' atonement is the poorest message to send to anyone. Christians have no such moral superiority, authority, and position of credibility. The message is a failure, and torments many who had to endure the story of Jesus.

There's a few good YouTubers who are very knowledgeable about deconstructing from the Christian faith. One is Mindshift that's very well done.

This is not the only soteriological model for understanding the atonement. This is a very Protestant view that most Catholics and Orthodox disdain moreso than you do.

 

[Nakosis]

People filed Jesus but his Gospel will eventually transform future generations that inherit this earth.

And Muslin, and Baha'i and Jew too. waiting for their idea of transformation?
Whatever happened was meant to happen regardless of what we thought it ought to be?
Do you think Jesus told his disciples not to go to the gentiles because he knew they would do exactly that?

God is a tricky deity.

 

[Nakosis]

They are very convincing, only if we choose to listen.

Alao in the time of the Messengers, humanity is at its lowest morals, and human life is meaningless to those in power. As an example, many hundreds of thousands flocked to the Message given by the Bab, but allowed persecution from the wayward divines of the age and their own ideas to diminish that light.

As the years roll on, the wisdom given in the Message becomes the apex of our goals and many embrace that Message. Not everyone will embrace the Messages, but that does not diminish its potential.

Regards Tony

So did God intend Jesus to fail with the Jews at that time?
Do you think Jesus knew?

 

[Nakosis]

Gaslighting. As if people are told to be poor teachers and preachers and to fail. Its like saying "Tell my why I should become a Christian," because you've mixed things up so bad that the only possible thing is to explain Christianity from scratch. Its against the rules for people to do so, hence not even a discussion.

We will never have a functioning forum beyond 10 or 20 people at a time. Its doomed to forever be a big joke.

So Jesus was gaslighting folks when he said he came for the lost sheep of Israel?
Or perhaps God gaslighted Jesus?

 

[Nakosis]

The story of Jesus as a substitute for the punishment of sin is nonsensical, and thus a masochistic failure. As far as justice goes it makes absolutely no sense. An all powerful God has to, by limitation of power and necessity of justice, subject His own supposedly innocent Son to extreme torture and execution by human hands in order to invoke mercy upon all humans. Absolute gibberish! As if an all powerful God must come in human form to endure ritualistic, blood sacrifice to atone for others sins is evidence that the Jesus story is man made and cultish.

The message of punishing the innocent for the deeds of the guilty is completely ridiculous, and a major failure of many humans who buy into this.

The message of becoming a transformed nature of goodness and innocence through fear of God because of hell, and acceptance of Jesus' atonement is the poorest message to send to anyone. Christians have no such moral superiority, authority, and position of credibility. The message is a failure, and torments many who had to endure the story of Jesus.

There's a few good YouTubers who are very knowledgeable about deconstructing from the Christian faith. One is Mindshift that's very well done.

Was the message of Jesus misunderstood, well I guess you are saying it was misunderstood by Christians, but then who was Jesus?

 

[osgart]

This is not the only soteriological model for understanding the atonement. This is a very Protestant view that most Catholics and Orthodox disdain moreso than you do.

What do you think is the proper understanding of atonement in your soteriology?

I was raised Catholic til some in my family converted to Baptist.

I fail to see any simplicity in Christ. Nor do I have any desire to be Catholic again. As far as I'm concerned it's all mental gymnastics.

But the question remains, why would an all powerful God subject His Son to a human life and extreme torture and execution?

If there's so many different ways of interpreting it then what good is it?

 

[Rival]

What do you think is the proper understanding of atonement in your soteriology?

I was raised Catholic til some in my family converted to Baptist.

I fail to see any simplicity in Christ. Nor do I have any desire to be Catholic again. As far as I'm concerned it's all mental gymnastics.

But the question remains, why would an all powerful God subject His Son to a human life and extreme torture and execution?

If there's so many different ways of interpreting it then what good is it?

I'm very tired and not inclined to debate, but here are some of the theories:

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

None of them may suit you as you're not a Christian; I tend to mix several as do many Catholics.