Jesus Failed Right?

[Spice]

My perspective according to the scriptures; Saul/ Paul was confronted by Jesus Christ for his persecution of those who were following Christ. Paul was directly commissioned by Jesus to spread the Gospel of grace. Paul did not change the Law, rather he demonstrated that Jesus alone fulfilled the Law, as no other human ever could. Therefore, Jesus Christ alone was and is the only One who can provide forgiveness of sin and eternal life.

But Paul argued with Peter and James terribly with his Roman educated arrogance. Paul did a good thing, absolutely, but he is held in far too high esteem by Christians. He was a church administrator and his writings account for 80% of the New Testament. That set the precedent that is still followed very rigidily today where preachers can only speak approved dialog. Ask more than one minister of the same denomination, separately of course, a volatile question, say on abortion or something in that line, and see how scripted the responses will be.

 

[blü 2]

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

To be fair, Paul was coming from a pre-existing Christian movement, one he says he'd persecuted, presumably for what in Jewish terms were blasphemies.

Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

Yes. Jesus states at the start of his mission that it's a suicide mission and he's going to die eg ─

Mark 2:20 The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.​

​

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.​

At the end of his mission he goes to Jerusalem to force the issue. Although (in the garden scene) he suggests to God that he'd like the plan amended, God refuses. So Jesus in turn refuses to withdraw from danger, he doesn't try to escape but surrenders to the authorities, he goes out of his way to make sure Pilate is annoyed by him, and he gets the crucifixion he wanted.

I've totally failed to understand this theology. If God wanted to forgive sins, why didn't [he] simply send out the message, Hey everyone, I've forgiven your sins! If God is omnipotent, what did Jesus' cruel death achieve that God couldn't achieve with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

(However, it's not too hard to make the case that God enjoys a good human sacrifice now and again ─

Genesis 22:2 (Abraham and Isaac, interrupted)​

Exodus 22:29-30 (sacrifice of the firstborn, later amended)​

Leviticus 27:28-29 (sacrifice of 'devoted' humans)​

Numbers 31:25-30, (sacrifice of captives)​

Numbers 31: 40-41 (the number of captives sacrificed)​

Joshua 6:21 (Joshua puts the people of conquered Jericho to death)​

Judges 11:30-39 (Jephthah honors his deal with God and sacrifices his daughter and is elevated to Judge (boss man) of Israel​

2 Samuel 21 (sacrifice of the descendants of Saul)​

And no doubt more.

 

[Nakosis]

To be fair, Paul was coming from a pre-existing Christian movement, one he says he'd persecuted, presumably for what in Jewish terms were blasphemies.


Yes. Jesus states at the start of his mission that it's a suicide mission and he's going to die eg ─

Mark 2:20 The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.​

​

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.​

At the end of his mission he goes to Jerusalem to force the issue. Although (in the garden scene) he suggests to God that he'd like the plan amended, God refuses. So Jesus in turn refuses to withdraw from danger, he doesn't try to escape but surrenders to the authorities, he goes out of his way to make sure Pilate is annoyed by him, and he gets the crucifixion he wanted.

I've totally failed to understand this theology. If God wanted to forgive sins, why didn't [he] simply send out the message, Hey everyone, I've forgiven your sins! If God is omnipotent, what did Jesus' cruel death achieve that God couldn't achieve with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

(However, it's not too hard to make the case that God enjoys a good human sacrifice now and again ─

Genesis 22:2 (Abraham and Isaac, interrupted)​

Exodus 22:29-30 (sacrifice of the firstborn, later amended)​

Leviticus 27:28-29 (sacrifice of 'devoted' humans)​

Numbers 31:25-30, (sacrifice of captives)​

Numbers 31: 40-41 (the number of captives sacrificed)​

Joshua 6:21 (Joshua puts the people of conquered Jericho to death)​

Judges 11:30-39 (Jephthah honours his deal with God and sacrifices his daughter and is elevated to Judge (boss man) of Israel​

2 Samuel 21 (sacrifice of the descendants of Saul)​

And no doubt more.

Jesus said he came for the people of Israel. The people of Israel wanted him gone/dead. Maybe he came to accept that to be his fate though only after one final plea to God for it to be otherwise.

 

[Unfettered]

I was referring specifically to the claim Jesus made about coming for the lost sheep of Israel. He wasn't able to persuade them to his views.

I see. Not all of them, anyway.

 

[InChrist]

But Paul argued with Peter and James terribly with his Roman educated arrogance. Paul did a good thing, absolutely, but he is held in far too high esteem by Christians. He was a church administrator and his writings account for 80% of the New Testament. That set the precedent that is still followed very rigidily today where preachers can only speak approved dialog. Ask more than one minister of the same denomination, separately of course, a volatile question, say on abortion or something in that line, and see how scripted the responses will be.

Yes, sure Paul, Peter, James and the other Apostles had their differences and disagreements. Nevertheless, no doubt in major matters of faith they were in agreement. Maybe you just think ministers or pastors answers to questions or views sound scripted when in reality they are simply just for the most part in agreement with the scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit on various issues.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 2:14-16

 

[blü 2]

Jesus said he came for the people of Israel. The people of Israel wanted him gone/dead. Maybe he came to accept that to be his fate though only after one final plea to God for it to be otherwise.

This brings us to the riddle of there being a Jesus in history. As you know, there are no contemporary accounts of him at all. It's also possible to account for the gospels as constructs based on the Tanakh, without the necessity of an historical Jesus at all. I used to think the odds of historical Jesus / no historical Jesus were the toss of a coin, though these days I'm more inclined to think there was an actual person behind the stories. I find merit in Bart Ehrman's observation that none of the early critics of the Christians ever used the argument that their central figure was imaginary.

Further (appealing to history's 'criterion of embarrassment') is that all four gospels portray Jesus' relations with his mother (in particular) and family as snarly and aggressive (Mark 3:31-35, Mark 6:4-5, Matthew 10:35-37, Luke 11:27. John 2:3, the sole exception being John 19:26.)

But everything we can say about whoever he was is otherwise guesswork, fueled for better or worse by what we know of Jesus' times and places. He's presented as foretelling the Apocalypse, when the Son of Man (ambiguously, since in the NT sometimes that clearly means Jesus and sometimes clearly doesn't) will descend and establish God's Kingdom on earth (and of course restore Jewish political independence).

 

[Spice]

Yes, sure Paul, Peter, James and the other Apostles had their differences and disagreements. Nevertheless, no doubt in major matters of faith they were in agreement. Maybe you just think ministers or pastors answers to questions or views sound scripted when in reality they are simply just for the most part in agreement with the scriptures and the leading of the Holy Spirit on various issues.

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 2:14-16

If they are so in agreement with scripture, why so many separate denominations? If they're so in agreement why do they break away from one another? Ask a couple of Methodist pastors about their position on homosexuals and the church. Regardless of which side of the recent split you ask, you'll get the same general answer scripted like a politician on the stump -- smooth, well spoken, non-commited, no answer. Try it a few times. I've been doing it for decades and even a family member speaks "seminary robot" instead of free thinking person.

 

[InChrist]

If they are so in agreement with scripture, why so many separate denominations? If they're so in agreement why do they break away from one another? Ask a couple of Methodist pastors about their position on homosexuals and the church. Regardless of which side of the recent split you ask, you'll get the same general answer scripted like a politician on the stump -- smooth, well spoken, non-commited, no answer. Try it a few times. I've been doing it for decades and even a family member speaks "seminary robot" instead of free thinking person.

I suppose it might be important to clarify what you mean by terms like split or scripted. I don’t know exactly what you mean by seminary robot. The Christians or pastors I’ve talked to or heard all seem pretty sincere, individualistic and committed.
I think that even though there are many denominations the important question is whether the various denominations (if they claim to be Christian) agree on the foundational essentials of biblical faith. If so, then there is room for differences on non-essential issues. I believe God desires unity in Christ, but not cookie cutter Christians. Many denominations are simply manifestations of the uniqueness and variety among Christians. Then again, the scriptures do indicate major apostasy and a departure from the faith in the final days of the church age, so that can lead to church splits.

 

[1213]

Have you ever seen a red letter Bible?
It separates the words claimed to have been said by Jesus from the words of the narrator/others.

Can you give one example? And how it is known it is from the narrator and not from Jesus?

 

[blü 2]

I suppose it might be important to clarify what you mean by terms like split or scripted. I don’t know exactly what you mean by seminary robot. The Christians or pastors I’ve talked to or heard all seem pretty sincere, individualistic and committed.
I think that even though there are many denominations the important question is whether the various denominations (if they claim to be Christian) agree on the foundational essentials of biblical faith. If so, then there is room for differences on non-essential issues. I believe God desires unity in Christ, but not cookie cutter Christians. Many denominations are simply manifestations of the uniqueness and variety among Christians. Then again, the scriptures do indicate major apostasy and a departure from the faith in the final days of the church age, so that can lead to church splits.

As to your footer, "Who is Jesus Christ?', which leads to texts that assert repeatedly that Jesus is God, it seems fair to point out that in the NT there are five main versions of Jesus, those of Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and Johh; and that all five versions of Jesus expressly deny that they're God and never claim to be God.

 

[Nakosis]

Can you give one example? And how it is known it is from the narrator and not from Jesus?

Here is an online copy. Holy Bible King James Version (Red Letter Edition)

Because the story is not told from the perspective of Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

I believe He did what He planned to do. That is not failure.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe He did what He planned to do. That is not failure.

Mat 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Perhaps the plan was God's. Doesn't seem to be what Jesus wanted though.

 

[1213]

Here is an online copy. Holy Bible King James Version (Red Letter Edition)

Because the story is not told from the perspective of Jesus.

Ok, thanks. That does not mean that the book and message would not be from Jesus, because Jesus could have directed/guided them to write it.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

Given that Paul was inspired by Jesus, Jesus is responsible for Paul's effort in starting the Christian movement. In any case, someone who has over one billion followers today, can hardly be called a failure.

 

[Nakosis]

Given that Paul was inspired by Jesus, Jesus is responsible for Paul's effort in starting the Christian movement. In any case, someone who has over one billion followers today, can hardly be called a failure.

Never convinced the Jews though. You'd think they'd be closest in theology and the easiest to persuade.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Never convinced the Jews though. You'd think they'd be closest in theology and the easiest to persuade.

They are not closest in theology at all. Jews believe in an 'eye-for-an-eye'. They believe in a vengeful, cruel, jealous, genocidal God.

 

[InChrist]

As to your footer, "Who is Jesus Christ?', which leads to texts that assert repeatedly that Jesus is God, it seems fair to point out that in the NT there are five main versions of Jesus, those of Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and Johh; and that all five versions of Jesus expressly deny that they're God and never claim to be God.

I disagree. The different perspectives of Jesus in the NT simply reveal various aspects of who Jesus is. I certainly see that the NT verifies that Jesus is God. He did things and demonstrated abilities and attributes which only God could. So my view is as Thomas came to realize…

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28

 

[blü 2]

I disagree. The different perspectives of Jesus in the NT simply reveal various aspects of who Jesus is. I certainly see that the NT verifies that Jesus is God. He did things and demonstrated abilities and attributes which only God could. So my view is as Thomas came to realize…

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28

Perhaps you might consider the following ─

Paul:

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

​

2 Philippians 8:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Mark:

Mark 9:36 And he took a child, and put him in the midst of them; and taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.​

​

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]​

32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;​

Matthew

Matthew 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”​

​

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”​

Luke

Luke 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”​

John

John 5: 19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”​

​

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”​

​

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me ...​

​

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.​

​

John 10​

25 Jesus answered them, “... 29 My Father ... is greater than all”.​

​

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; 14 if you ask anything in my name, I will do it. 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,​

​

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”​

​

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

And also

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

​

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God.​

 

[Ajax]

They are not closest in theology at all. Jews believe in an 'eye-for-an-eye'. They believe in a vengeful, cruel, jealous, genocidal God.

Strange...I thought it was the same God, both in OT and NT..