Jesus' Failed Second Coming Prophecy and What this Means for Christianity

[Rational Agnostic]

I don't.

He wasn't.

Peter said He can't come back until the time has come to restore all things.

​

But Jesus said he would come back within his disciples' lifetimes. What event do you think Jesus is referring to in Matthew 10:23, Matthew 24:34, and Matthew 16:28 then? The only way that these prophecies could have come true is if stars fell from the heavens to the earth and the elect were raptured into heaven while the unbelievers were judged. But how could we be here having that conversation if those events already took place?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, I assume that Jesus' thoughts were aligned with what he said, ...

All of which were carefully recorded and passed on with astonishing fidelity. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Colt]

No, I definitely don't think everything recorded in the bible is a completely, word for word, exact recollection of what happened. But when it is repeated in the Bible so many times it's quite clear that the end of the world was in fact expected by Jesus' followers, as well as Jesus himself (Jesus predicts it in Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32) and the idea is also reinforced by other New Testament authors like Paul who advised readers not to get married since the end times were at hand, and that those who are currently married should neglect their marital responsibilities since Jesus would be returning within their lifetimes' anyway. 1 Corinthians 7:29-31 states: What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

It's very clear when reading the New Testament that Jesus, as well as the earliest Christians, thought that the end of the world was approaching within their lifetimes, and it's also very clear that they were wrong about that.

I think Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, the spirit of truth and some future return. Warning his apostles to get out of Jerusalem without second thoughts when they saw trouble coming was prudent. The destruction of Jerusalem did in fact happen in that generation. I also think that there was a great deal of speculation and conjecture by his followers after Jesus left about the meaning of his many sayings.

 

[Colt]

But Jesus said he would come back within his disciples' lifetimes. What event do you think Jesus is referring to in Matthew 10:23, Matthew 24:34, and Matthew 16:28 then? The only way that these prophecies could have come true is if stars fell from the heavens to the earth and the elect were raptured into heaven while the unbelievers were judged. But how could we be here having that conversation if those events already took place?

His spirit did come back. But its true Jesus did say he would return be that he didn't know when.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But how could we be here having that conversation if those events already took place?

<yawn>

Just remember the 4 B's ...​

1. Bible
2. Bashing
3. Becomes
4. Boring

</yawn>

 

[Sand Dancer]

Maybe, but that's a different topic. I'm more interested in the accuracy of the bible and Jesus' statements than the application of it, since secular moral systems could be developed using the same teachings without making any direct claims on what is true and false.

I think that many people feel that if the Bible is not accurate in any way, then they have to chuck it all. That is one of many flaws of black and white thinking. I rarely believe 100% of any nonfiction book I read.

 

[osgart]

Christians read the Bible just how they want to read it, non critically. You can't argue with that kind of wishful thinking. A fundamentalist has no Bible legs to stand on. Your conclusions will be romanticized, and rationalized away no matter what.

 

[Firenze]

Many of them probably knew this but benefited from their positions of being clergy or theologians and so decided to not reveal it or be honest about it. Others may have either not studied it enough, or not been honest enough with themselves to admit it, since they still wanted to believe that Jesus would someday return. The human mind can rationalize believing in falsehoods pretty easily. C.S. Lewis actually acknowledged that Jesus was wrong about this, but didn't realize or admit that this implies that nothing else Jesus said can be trusted to be accurate either.

Dan Barker reports that Seminary school admitted many frauds, redactions, contradictions, etc - that amazingly never end up in the pulpit....

 

[Dave Watchman]

But Jesus said he would come back within his disciples' lifetimes.

That's not what He said.

What event do you think Jesus is referring to in Matthew 10:23, Matthew 24:34, and Matthew 16:28 then?

Matthew 10:23: Jesus is talking to two different groups of disciples, the ones standing before Him in the fist century, and the Christians at the end of time. Our time this is related to: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 24:34: Jesus is talking to His People living in the end times. The generation that sees Israel back as a nation. The fig tree, and all the trees.

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh.​

The generation that sees this will not pass away until ALL is fulfilled.

Luke said when you see the fig tree and ALL the trees.

"Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth,
ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.​

Starting from the top and continuing clockwise: Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt.

Lebanon (1943)

Following World War I, France acquired a mandate over the northern portion of the former Ottoman Empire province of Syria. The French separated out the region of Lebanon in 1920, and granted this area independence in 1943.

Syria (1946)

Following World War I, France acquired a mandate over the northern portion of the former Ottoman Empire province of Syria. The French administered the area as Syria until granting it independence in 1946.

Jordan (1946)

Following World War I and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the UK received a mandate to govern much of the Middle East. Britain separated out a semi-autonomous region of Transjordan from Palestine in the early 1920s, and the area gained its independence in 1946; it adopted the name of Jordan in 1950.

Egypt (1952)

Partially independent from the UK in 1922, Egypt acquired full sovereignty with the overthrow of the British-backed monarchy in 1952.

Israel (1948)

Following World War II, Britain withdrew from its mandate of Palestine, and the UN proposed partitioning the area into Arab and Jewish states, an arrangement rejected by the Arabs. Nonetheless, an Israeli state was declared in 1948 and Israel subsequently defeated the Arab armies in a series of wars that did not end deep tensions between the two sides.

Middle East

www.cia.gov

Between 1943 and 1952, all of the coun-trees surrounding Israel also became nations again after many years of hyber-nation. All within five years of the Fig-Tree.

(Do you think it's a coincidence the world is still looking at a map of this region in 2023?)

Matthew 16:28: Jesus is talking to the first century People there. He might mean the mount of transfiguration in the next chapter, maybe ascension day in Acts, or maybe He was speaking to demonic angels that only He could see.

But what I'm saying is, an interpretation of this can't prove the parousia has failed. The empirical data for that is placed in another area of the Bible.

The only way that these prophecies could have come true is if stars fell from the heavens to the earth and the elect were raptured into heaven while the unbelievers were judged.

There's a bunch of symbolism in the Script right? The Dragon's tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
Hebrew couplet: "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Stars=Sons of God.

But how could we be here having that conversation if those events already took place?

Like now, events are taking place, but not all of them are being recognized for what the are. That's how it had to be.

So that even though we are not in darkness so that that day should overtake us as a thief, the Son of man is still going to be able to come at an hour that we do not expect.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know, who do you think he is?

I believe that Baha'u'llah, the Prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith, was the return of Christ.

Either way it doesn't matter, because the passages predicted the Apocalypse, stating that the stars would fall to the earth, which clearly didn't happen in the first century A.D. during Jesus' disciples' lifetimes.

What Bible verses say that the stars would fall to the earth in the first century A.D. during Jesus' disciples' lifetimes?
The only Bible verses I know of that say that the stars would fall from heaven

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Matthew 24:29).

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. (Rev 6:12-13)

Those verses are referring to shooting stars, not stars like our sun.
The stars fell from the heavens in 1833. The Falling of the Stars

THE STAR-FALL OF 1833

So exceptional was this event that Clarke in his History of Astronomy in the Nineteenth Century writes: “… a tempest of falling stars broke over the earth.”

According to the millennial scholars of the 1840s, the third sign in the sixth chapter of Revelation came to pass on 12 November 1833, the night of the unique star-fall.

Clarke wrote of that night, saying: “Once and for all, then, as the result of the star-fall of 1833, the study of luminous meteors became an integral part of astronomy.” He goes on to say: “North America bore the brunt of its pelting. From the Gulf of Mexico to Halifax, until daylight with some difficulties put an end to the display, the sky was scored in every direction with shining tracks and illuminated with majestic fireballs.”

Denison Olmsted, Professor of Mathematics at Yale University, wrote the following in the American Journal of Science: “The morning of 13 November 1833, was rendered memorable by an exhibition of the phenomenon called shooting stars, which was probably more extensive and magnificent than any similar one hitherto recorded … Probably no celestial phenomenon has ever occurred in this country, since its first settlement, which was received with so much admiration and delight by one class of spectators, or with so much astonishment and fear by another class. For some time after the occurrence, the ‘meteoric phenomenon’ was the principle topic of conversation.”

Simon Newcomb in Astronomy for Everybody called the display of falling stars “the most remarkable one ever observed”.

The French astronomer, Flammarion, in Popular Astronomy, wrote: “The Boston observer, Olmsted, compared them, at the moment of maximum, to half the number of flakes which are perceived in the air during an ordinary shower of snow.”

The New York Journal of Commerce wrote: “No philosopher or scholar has told or recorded an event like that of yesterday morning. A prophet eighteen hundred years ago foretold it exactly, if we will be at the trouble of understanding stars falling to mean falling stars.” (New York Journal of Commerce, 14 November 1833.)

Astronomers, after careful study, learned that this particular meteoric display occurs every thirty–three years. However, the display of 1833 was unique in its drama. The fall of 1866 did not rival it in any way, and that of 1899 was of even less interest.

From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

 

[Trailblazer]

So are you saying that you think Jesus will come back by 2036?

If Jesus returned to this world, how would you know it was Jesus?

Most Christians are waiting for Jesus to return, although they do not all agree on when or how He will return, but if a man came claiming to be Jesus how would you know it was really Jesus? After all, there are no photos of what Jesus looked like when He walked the earth 2000 years ago...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[danieldemol]

Astronomers, after careful study, learned that this particular meteoric display occurs every thirty–three years. However, the display of 1833 was unique in its drama. The fall of 1866 did not rival it in any way, and that of 1899 was of even less interest.

1833 does not correspond to any important date in the Baha'i faith though as far as I'm aware

 

[danieldemol]

There's a bunch of symbolism in the Script right? The Dragon's tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.
Hebrew couplet: "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Stars=Sons of God.

So in your fancy post-hoc rationalisation what does a dragon refer to since it is evident in my view that no dragon swept a third of the stars from heaven, nor does any survey indicate that in your literal star fall meteorites equal to a third of the stars were fallen? And why do you take parts of it literally and parts symbolically as it pleases you with no justification from the text as to which parts to take symbolically or literally other than the bit about stars being sons of god? Furthermore if stars are symbolic could it not be that a meteor shower which occurs every 33 years had nothing in particular to do with Baha'u'llah?

 

[soulsurvivor]

So, clearly, the second coming of Christ and subsequent Apocalypse that was supposed to occur in the first century never happened, and Jesus was wrong. Yet, more than 2000 years later, billions of Christians around the world still earnestly believe that it will occur in the future, and are not aware that this prophecy already failed. The truth is, there is no reason to expect that this second coming will ever happen, and is anything more than a fairy tale. If Jesus was wrong about something as key and central to Christianity as this, there is no reason to trust that Jesus was right about anything else he said, and no reason to believe that the Christian god exists outside the imaginations of those who believe in him.

You are right to say that Jesus's prophesy appears to have failed. But maybe Jesus was just trying to give people hope so that they could continue their mission of practicing and propagating their faith in spite of all the persecution. Perhaps Jesus could foresee that if he did not tell this 'untruth', Christianity as a religion would fail to survive. So, by making this prophesy, he was ensuring that the people of that generation would have the courage to continue with their faith. Jesus may have been deliberately misleading his followers in order to ensure the success of his ministry.

But knowing Jesus, the Second Coming itself is probably not an 'untruth', only the timing prophesied is the 'untruth'.

In fact, I expect the Second Coming to occur quite soon, maybe even in the next year or two, precipitated by Israel's horrendous actions in Gaza. I am afraid atheists are going to be very disappointed.

 

[danieldemol]

In fact, I expect the Second Coming to occur quite soon, maybe even in the next year or two, precipitated by Israel's horrendous actions in Gaza. I am afraid atheists are going to be very disappointed.

In fact I expect that in a year or two you will have forgotten you made this prediction in my view.

 

[soulsurvivor]

In fact I expect that in a year or two you will have forgotten you made this prediction in my view.

I will bookmark your comment.

 

[Trailblazer]

1833 does not correspond to any important date in the Baha'i faith though as far as I'm aware

No it doesn't correspond to any important dates in the Baha'i Faith because THE STAR-FALL OF 1833 happened before Baha'u'llah declared His mission.
The stars falling from heaven was one of the signs we would see before Christ returned.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[F1fan]

That's the point. 2000 years later, there are billions of Christians around the world who still earnestly believe that it will occur.

There have been Christians all through this time that believed it would happen in their time. Look at all the predictions that the End Times were happening. For 2000 years Christians have been disappointed. Bad religion. Too bad it wasn't clearer.

The reason for that is the historicity of the Resurrection is unimpeachable.

Resurrections don't happen. The story about Jesus was most likely influenced by Egyptian lore, and other pagan ideas.

If those Old Time Jews could have produced a body, there would be no Christianity.

It wouldn't matter. The story is absurd, and not only does the background based on a literalist interpretation of Genesis not work, but the whole moral reason for the Gospels doesn't work with what we observe of reality.

The reason for Jesus to have been born (due to magical sex, which isn't believable) is for the sole purpose of being executed by the Romans so he serves as a sacrifice to God so the sins of man will be atoned. That's a very Rube Goldberg design. God couldn't just make salvation happen? If God opposes sin why make it part of creation in the first place? The only reason sin exists comes from the Fall, and the Adam and Eve myth isn't true. So even if the myth is considered a metaphor at what point do Bible stories move from symbolic to history?

And for the Gospels to be history how do the supernatural bits get justfied when nothing in our real life experiences suggest it's real? Seriously, to make rational arguments you need true premises, not faith, not tradition.

The odd thing about the whole salvation insterest is why would a Gid be concerned about the souls of living people, but not the life of those people? I'd be impressed if cancer and defects suddenly vanished with prayer. It doesn't. Little children are diagnosed daily with cancer, and the only reason any survive is due to what science and medicine has created. We see parents pray for the lives of their children, but they still die. How is that consistent with a God that is supposed to be concerned about us?

And if you are going to fall back on how many deserves disease because of the Fall, well then that means you having to demonstrate how the Genesis stories are not only true, but also makes sense in any way. If God really wanted to create obedient beings, why didn't it happen? God screwed up, or it was planned.

I read through your note, but I didn't find anything to dissuade me from my other end time studies. Jesus wasn't wrong. The actual timing for His second visitation is found in Daniel and Revelation, within the stated prophetic time periods. This generation is now. We are in the scope of that timing now.

I find it interesting when believers bring up Revelations. Have you nenver read about how Revelations made it into the final cut of the Bible? And historians consider the references to be about the current times when it was written, not the future. That actually makes more sense. But Christians are greedy and self-absorbed, and want their time to be THE time when Jesus returns.

I'm afraid that your declaration of failure is simply premature.

Well God is a screw up or a sociopath, so failure seems inevitable in the Christian plan.

 

[danieldemol]

No it doesn't correspond to any important dates in the Baha'i Faith because THE STAR-FALL OF 1833 happened before Baha'u'llah declared His mission.
The stars falling from heaven was one of the signs we would see before Christ returned.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

That means it also happened before the declaration of Mirza Ghulam Ahmads mission etc too in my view.

 

[viole]

That's the point. 2000 years later, there are billions of Christians around the world who still earnestly believe that it will occur.

Waiting for Godot, so to speak.

Thats is the nice thing about prophecies that do not set a clear cut date. They never expire.
so that hope can continue springing eternally.

ciao

- viole