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JESUS, God, the Ordinal First and Last

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Now this is just getting weird. I corrected your mistake and you still brought it up and now again you are acting like it's incorrect. For the 3rd time:
It does not say Yahweh inherited the names.
What's weird is, here you say one thing. And then here you say the opposite.
What it says is:
41:01
"The Biblical God is not only generally similar to Baal as a storm God, but God inherited the names of Baal's cosmic enemies. With names such as Leviathan, Sea, Death and Tanninim."

Let's make this really obvious.

Joelr: It does not say "Yahweh inherited the names".
Joelr: It says "God inherited the names of Baal's cosmic enemies"

Total contradiction.
Now, you've been making all kinds of noice saying, I claimed they said something they didn't say. But they did. and here you are claiming they didn't. And then you quote it yourself. And you still can't seem to figure out, that they said it.
Yahweh doesn't inherit the names? THE ENEMIES OF YAHWEH HAVE THE SAME NAMES AS BAAL. It took you 3 times to get this (or maybe more, which is why I am so uninterested in this discussion)
And I responded to this. Again I'l respond. You can't seem to address the points.

1) These are not cosmic enemies in the Hebrew bible. Death is not a god that gets destroyed. Leviathan is not a god that gets destroyed. The sea is not a god that gets destroyed.
2) The stories don't even match up correctly.
  • Leviathan is a sea monster, LTN isn't
  • LTN breathes fire, Leviathan doesn't
  • LTN has 7 heads, Leviathan doesn't
  • Yahweh defeats Leviathan, Baal doesn't
  • Death is destroyed forever in Isaiah, Death is destined to return in the Baal Cycle
3) A similarity of names is weak. So weak, because the Baal Cycle borrowed from Isaiah for translation. We don't know what these names are, they are guesses at best.
Not only that but you went on a big rant about how nothing matched and gave language lessons and had an entire dance party. For. Nothing. Unless you are just throwing garbage around to see what I'm too tired to answer. Which will work eventaully. I guess you can pretend like you finally made a good point?
I've made a ton of good points. You can't refute any of them. Your only rebuttal is adhom, you're not a PHD.
Bible - Leviathan, the felling serpent, Leviathan, the coiling serpent
Baal - Litan the fleeing serpent, Litan the coiling serpent.
Nope it doesn't say that. You added Litan in the second part but its not there... and you removed all the words in the middle.

This is what it says:

Best case scenario... using an english translation which borrows from Isaiah.

Isaiah: lvytn nhsh brh lvytn btn 'qltn

Baal Cycle: ltn btn brh btn 'qltn

... Leviathan serpent fleeing, leviathan serpent coiling ...
...Litan serpent fleeing, serpent coiling ...
One small example, which matches.
It matches in english, 2 words match, and a similar name. That's not intertexuality as it is described in the video. And, yes, it's small. Probably the best example they've got.

Is LTN a sea monster? Is LTN defeated by Baal? Is there anything, anything at all in the Baal Cycle that matches what's happening in Isaiah besides a similarity of names?
Dr Baden, agrees
Kipp Davis, Bowed,
Professor Christine Hayes
John Collins - all agree
They agree to the strawman about the bible not being true.

But when it comes to borrowing and syncretism, no, they don't agree.
Dr. Aren Maeir , agree
Something interesting about Dr. Maeir. You probably didn't notice, but, when the question arose about where the Israelites came from. he mentioned a fringe belief that basicaly no scholars agree with. He said, some people say that the Israelites completely fabricated their identity creating something entirely new out of whole cloth. he said basically no scholars agree with that.

Hmmmmm, that sounds pretty similar to what Baden was saying. Fictive kinship? Dr. Maeir didn't agree with that.

The other interesting thing. When asked about the persian influence, he said, we don't know it could have been bi-directional influence. So, there you go, no concensus on that one. Even though you claim it like a gospel.
also in the video:
16:00 John Collins, Introduction to the Hebrew Bible 3rd ed.
“Biblical creation stories draw motifs from Mesopotamia, Much of the language and imagery of the Bible was culture specific and deeply embedded in the traditions of the Near East.
Motifs are a literary device. not theology. not syncretic... NEXT.
16:28 2nd ed. The Old Testament, Davies and Rogerson
“We know from the history of the composition of Gilamesh that ancient writers did adapt and re-use older stories……
Ancient writers including the ugarites, including the persians, including the bablyonians, and the akkaidans, and the assyrians... hmmm, so the direction of influence is unknown. NEXT.
It is safer to content ourselves with comparing the motifs and themes of Genesis with those of other ancient Near East texts.
Motifs are a literary device. Not theology. The themes can be compared, but when we do... they're opposite! Not syncretic. NEXT.
In this way we acknowledge our belief that the biblical writers adapted existing stories, while we confess our ignorance about the form and content of the actual stories that the Biblical writers used.”
adapted it to galvanize their pre-existing theology? Sure! why not? I know you like to lump everything together, but adapting, and influencing isn't the same as borrowing and syncretism. NEXT.
17:24 - The Old Testament, A Historical and Literary Introduction to the Hebrew Scriptures, M. Coogan
“Genesis employs and alludes to mythical concepts and phrasing, but at the same time it also adapts transforms and rejected them”
Transforms and rejects. Not syncretism. NEXT.
17:55 God in Translation, Smith
“…the Bibles authors fashioned whatever they may have inherited of the Mesopotamian literary tradition on their own terms”
Not syncretism. NEXT.
18:19 THE OT Text and Content, Matthews, Moyer
“….a great deal of material contained in the primeval epics in Genesis is borrowed and adapted from the ancient cultures of that region.”
a great deal is false. Like 4 things. Maybe. :rolleyes: NEXT.
19:30 Subtle Citation, Allusion, and Translation in the Hebrew Bible, Zevit
\Methods for identifying intersexuality and understanding borrowing
Nice collection fo words. Great, it's a title of a book. Looks like it's a collection of essays. Maybe I'll get it and see how weak the arguments are. Do you own this book, Joel? Maybe you could bring some of these subtle intertexual examples? NEXT.
The Formation of Genesis 1-11, Carr
“The previous discussion has made clear how this story in Genesis represents a complex juxtaposition of multiple traditions often found separately in the Mesopotamian literary world….”
Complex juxtaposition... in other words, they're intended to oppose... not syncretic. NEXT.
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
41:00 The Priestly Vision of Genesis, Smith
“….storm God and cosmic enemies passed into Israelite tradition. The biblical God is not only generally similar to Baal as a storm god, but God inherited the names of Baal’s cosmic enemies, with names such as Leviathan, Sea, Death and Tanninim.”
There's that phrase again. The one you say they're not saying. They say it, but mean something else. Is LTN a sea monster? Does Baal defeat it? How many heads to Leviathan have? Is death defeated in the ugaritic myths? And this whole storm god thing, wht's the deal with that? Because God is in a cloud, suddenly it's a storm god? And God caused it to rain. What about the plagues? God is God of all the natural forces. Every last one of them. That's the whole point of the story.
"doesn't appear"? This debate is over.You have shown when proven wrong you will just make bold face, blatantly incorrect statements, which speaks volumes. Making stuff up is a massive verification of what's happening here.
I don't make stuff up. You misrepresent me. And speaking of making stuff up. I looked ahead and I see you've again made the false statement about the arrowheads. Joel, Joel, Joel.... I showed you that ws false a while ago. Anyway. I'll get there, and show you again.
And yes, the Yale Divinity lectures also include the Mesopotamian influence on Genesis.
Professor Christine Hayes of Yale University -
Influence that galvanized a pre-existing religious belief that was REJECTING the urrounding theologies.
Lecture 2. The Hebrew Bible in Its Ancient Near Eastern Setting

Repeat posting. SPAM. I addressed these same comments. Good for you for keeping them saved so you can copy-paste. I cordially invite you to actually address these issues. The question is, syncretism. What we'll see, and anyone can see if they watch the video, is that Judaism is not syncretic per this scholar.
0:22 - Bible shares cultural heritage of Near Eastern mythology but has it’s own take.
not syncretic
Bible written by elites (7th to 4th century) had a specific radical new worldview and imposed it on the earlier Israelite religion - monotheism.
FALSE! MISQUOTE! She doesn't say written, she says final editting and redacted.
Talks about Kaufmann and his apologetics that Israels monotheism is completely different than Near Eastern polytheism
FALSE MISQUOTE! She doesnt call him an apologist. You are making this up. She has a ton of respect for kaufmann referes to him multiple times thru multiple lectures.
38:30 Same as Dever, Israelite/Judean religion was not what is portrayed in Bible. Bible is written later and re-tells story of Israel.
Judaism has always been a minority position.
39:42 in all likelihood, going by archaeology and scripture, Hebrews of an older time were not much different than it’s Near Eastern neighbors. Archaeology would suggest this.
so... we can't tell who was pagan, and who wasn't. the lines are too blurry.
Worship of household idols, fertility deities, engaged in various syncretistic practices, PROBABLY
You clipped out the end of the sentence. Yes. You put the word probably, but, the rest of the sentence is ... probably monlartist. Soft montheism. Not pagan. Not polytheists. Different theology than the canaanites.
40:49 Yahweh was probably very similar to the other gods of Canaanite religion - evidence suggests
And yet, the examples given are weak and at least one of them is false. The similarity of name, El is weak. The ugarite tablets were translated using Hebrew. of course the names are going to be similar. we don't know the vowels. El in Hebrew is a preposition. Most people when they transliterate ugaritic it;s IL, I-L. Not Ayl, which is the Jewish name of God. The singluar of Elohim, is Elohai, not El. common misconception. Yahweh is NOT referred to as bull, I have no idea where she gets that from. Yahweh is the God of your fathers, not the father of gods, which is the canaanite god. And she kept saying god the father, god the father... that's Christian. Yahweh doesn't live in a tent on a mountain. All these similarities are silly.
40:52 continuities with Canaanite AND ancient Near Eastern religions are apparent in the worship practices and cult objects of ancient Judah and Israel as they are described in biblical stories and as we find in archaeological finds.
Sure, the bible describes common folk as not adhereing to the Jewish law. No problem.
Bible contains sources of polytheism. Genesis 6, Nephilim - divine beings who descend to Earth and mate with humans.
Not what she said. She said it was a fluid example. "fluid". And it was just one example, just in that 1 spot. Nice of you to clip that out.
Psalms - descriptions of meetings and conversations between multiple gods.
common misconception. but it's a no. It's the same psalm 82, the same one example, that everyone talks about in this regard. I see you asked for evidence to support my objection. I have it. I'll get there.
43:08 literate and monotheistic circles within Israelite society put a monotheistic framework onto the stories and traditions of the nation. They molded them into a foundation myth to shape Jewish identity. Possible start at 8th century. Projected their monotheism onto an earlier time. Monotheism is represented as beginning with Abraham - historically speaking it most likely began MUCH LATER. Probably as a minority movement. This creates the impression of the Biblical religion.
I read your comments later in the thread. You are completely misunderstanding what's being said here in plain english.
  • Monotheistic circles existed *before*
  • Monothiestic framework existed *before*
  • The myth was developed to include this framework
  • This development started 8th century, the frame work pre-existed the 8th century
  • The monotheistc culture began much later than the supposed abraham? fine.
  • Minority movement? Fine.
  • yes, the impressionof a biblical religion before it actually existed? Fine.
Still not syncretic. :cool:
44:54 apologetics forces scripture to be monotheistic, the text is actually contradictory and inconsistent
BUZZZZZ! Misquote. You like to insert apologetics where it doesn't belong. She didn't say that.

And these contradictions are pretty much bogus. I'm reading Baden's book on the documentary hypothesis. Guess how many actual contradictions actually exist? 1. Out of all those examples, and his claim that the need for the DH is because of these contradictions... well... I guess people need to manufacture them to justify the DH. It's so silly.
45:27 - Creation story added to Pentateuch in one of the last rounds of editing, probably 6th century.
I'm trying to figure this one out. I can't find anyone who will explain the reasons for this conclusion. Of course, I know you won't know... But I'll find out eventually.
46:00 Genesis used and adapted themes from Near Eastern mythology
The themes are opposite. So sure, you cherry pick word adapted, but ignore the rest of what the lecture says.

Honestly, it seems like you just cherry lick these quotes, save them somewhere, can;t recall the actual lecture, and then these cherry picked quotes replace what the lecture actually is communicating.

In other words, your process is contributing to your misunderstanding. Combine that with a rejection of details.. and well... it's not a good way to come up with accurate conclusions.[/quote]
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Some of the things the Yale Divinity professor says are "not true". HA!. Just like the "not consensus" on Mesopotamian sources? You have zero credibility.
No, Joel. You seem to have trouble with the details.

There is no concensus on the intertexuality. INTERTEXUALITY. There's also no concensus on the persian influence. There's no concensus on the Pillar figurines. No concensus about "his" asherah. A lot of things you;ve said there isn't a concensus on.
This is all strawman. I don't care what you call early Israelite religion???? My original point is the Bible is not correct. Everything here backs that up.
Well. That's a strawman. Hoenstly, the debate is now about syncretism.
Bogus contradictions = apologist, no historical scholar agrees with that. I do not care about apologetics and cognitive bias. All scholars recognize the contradictions.
But... they're mostly garbage. All a person needs to do is read the verses in order. Sometimes there is a little confusion. But they're not contradictions.
Some religious people who cannot have contradictions because they need this to be the word of a deity are using confirmation bias to force beliefs.
Well. That's not me. I just don't like people spreading false information about my religion. If a contradiction exists, and there is 1. So far, just 1. Theres some petty ones. A mountain has two names. A person has to names. A geneology might be different. OK. That happens. But when someone like Baden says, theres a contradiction in the law. That's a big deal. And, it's a false claim. Completely 100% false.
These ideas are not supported by any historical scholarship.
The Bible WAs written later, one reference was at"

45:27 - Creation story added to Pentateuch in one of the last rounds of editing, probably 6th century.
This doesn' say written later. This is talking about compilation. It could be the gen 1 story existed and was added. And, I'm guessing this is based on weak underlying assumptions as well. It's become doctrine, no one questions it. So, naturally, I'm questioning.
and here which also confirms the consensus about Mesopotamian myth:
0:22 - Bible shares cultural heritage of Near Eastern mythology but has it’s own take.
You seem to have trouble with english. This confirms that the bible is not syncretic. Not syncretic.
Bible written by elites (7th to 4th century) had a specific radical new worldview and imposed it on the earlier Israelite religion - monotheism.
well, she said just a little bit ago that this was an editting and redaction. I think if she said "written" its not ment literally. Most scholars do not say it was "written". And like I;ve been saying in your own video ( which I know you don't remember, you just copy paste cherry picked quotes over and over ) they say that scholars do NOT claim that the bible was written in 600bce. That is an extreme over simplification.
She backs up Dever here:

39:42 in all likelihood, going by archaeology and scripture, Hebrews of an older time were not much different than it’s Near Eastern neighbors. Archaeology would suggest this.
and again, if they were so similar, then it;s impossible to tell who was practicing paganism and who wasnt. these are the same copy=paste talking points, you;ve posted them repeatedly. And then in the end, you basically admit that this is true, but you don't care. All you care about is whether the bible is false.
Worship of household idols, fertility deities, engaged in various syncretistic practices, PROBABLY

40:49 Yahweh was probably very similar to the other gods of Canaanite religion - evidence suggests
46:00 Genesis used and adapted themes from Near Eastern mythology

and here:

40:52 continuities with Canaanite AND ancient Near Eastern religions are apparent in the worship practices and cult objects of ancient Judah and Israel as they are described in biblical stories and as we find in archaeological finds.

Bible contains sources of polytheism. Genesis 6, Nephilim - divine beings who descend to Earth and mate with humans.

Psalms - descriptions of meetings and conversations between multiple gods.


Bible was written later, confirmed here:

43:08 literate and monotheistic circles within Israelite society put a monotheistic framework onto the stories and traditions of the nation. They molded them into a foundation myth to shape Jewish identity. Possible start at 8th century. Projected their monotheism onto an earlier time. Monotheism is represented as beginning with Abraham - historically speaking it most likely began MUCH LATER. Probably as a minority movement. This creates the impression of the Biblical religion.

and the inconsistencies:

44:54 apologetics forces scripture to be monotheistic, the text is actually contradictory and inconsistent
I adressed all of this. I cordially invite you to respond to what I already said. None of this has anything to do with whether the bible was written vs redacted/editted in 600bce.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Another lie. My post says PROBABLY.
Another lack of attention to detail.

You clipped the end off that said it was probably monolartist. Soft montheism. I didn't say that you clipped off probably. It's right there in front of you.

Screenshot_20230212_160905.jpg


The sourcing is consensus.
Not on intertexuality, not on persian influence, not on syncretism...
Your amateur apologist reading is of no interest to me. Find a historical scholar to agree.
OK Good. Now we can talk about something different. Instead of repeating he same old, copying and pasting cherry picked nonsense. and then claiming all you care about is a strawman argument. We can talk about something real.

Psalm 82 does not talk about a pantheon. The last verse doesnt make sense.

In order to show you this, I have to go way back. Its become doctrine, and no one seems to question it. And, we need to get a Jewish scholar, talking to a Jewish audience, because otherwise, no one is going to notice the problem.

Now, this author, agrees that Psalm 82 is a pantheon. Of course I disagree. But the point is, this is not an apologist. This is a scholar from the Reform Movement, writing to a liberal Jewish audience. That means, they're scholars, they respect secular academics. They're not bible thumping true believers.

Screenshot_20230212_161427.jpg


Now, what is going on here...

The author just finished giving their translation and interpretation of the psalm as Yahweh in a council in a pantheon.

But, he had to change a word in the last verse.

The last verse doesn't actually say YHVH in it. That's a change. The actual verse says Elohim. If Elohim are supposed to be a pantheon of gods, then, the last verse makes no sense.

How does this Jewish scholar address this, in order to make the case that this is, actually, a psalm about a pantheon? He has to change the last verse, and then claim that a redactor went thought these psalms and changed it, and that it originally was supposed to be Elohim, but the other places where it says Elohim is fine. So he has to change ot back, in order to support the claim that this is a council of a pantheon.

It's a completely convoluted, nutty, way to look at the psalm, and this is how the documentary hypothesis works. Someone assumes there's an elohist, who is changing things all over the place, and then we change it back. it's a mess.

If we're going to start changing words around, and claiming scribal errors and such, which happens at the end of the document. Then, I can easily change a vowel on the first line, and suddenly it's not the council of El, it's "divine testimony". It's just one vowel different.

So there's that. Confirmation that the psalm doesnt make sense as a council of gods, because the last verse conflicts, and the only way to make it correct, is to change the verse, removing the conflict. I doubt you'll want to read the document, but I'll attach it in case anyone else might want to read it. Note, the highlighting isn't mine. That's part of the scan.

Now, you asked for a historical scholar that agrees with me that this is NOT a council of a pantheon? Sure!

Here you go: Death of the אלהים in Psalm 82 on JSTOR

This goes through extremely carefully and in extreme detail, knocks down the council of a pantheon. The idea is, the Psalm is condemning Kings who believe they are god-like. It makes perfect sense. For those who actually want to read it, the important background is that Jewish ( and other ) commentators for a 1000 years, or maybe more, have been translating the psalm to be talking about Judges judging unfairly. I still think that's a perfectly fine way to read it. That's the way it's normally translated in Jewish collections of the Psalms. This scholar looks at it differently. And while hes doing it, completely refutes the whole pantheon argument. He even uses other ugaritic myths to make the case saying that these other myths are better matches if one wants to look to those for context.

Screenshot_20230212_163429.jpg


Screenshot_20230212_164145.jpg



But yeah, keep changing stuff to fit your needs. Now watch, next you take issue with me misquoting after 2 posts full of non-truths and bending words.
yes, you misquote. And no, I'm not bending words. The entire lecture is about how NOT syncretic Judaism is.
I don't need a strong argument. Scholarship has made it for me.
You can disagree with Dever all day. What is your degree in archaeology?
Ad hom. And yes you do need a strong argument, unless you think it's true cause they say it's true.
The Bible is not correct. The goddess may not be Ashera, but female deities were worshipped. Every point you have raised means nothing to the overall point.
Your own sources say that Judaism isn' syncretic. That's where the debate is now
The only flaws are in your twisting of the narrative.
You cannot refute what I've said. All you have it, ad hom, and faith.
Because they were found in Israel with Israelite artifacts and Israel occupied the towns the temples were in. At least one says Yahweh and has female deity figurines. 8th century.
Show me the Yahweh figurine. Indicate where that is in the videos. And you definitely get points for proving me wrong.
Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel
Oh good grief, this is SPAM.
I went thru the whole video and commented on it. You couldn't refute anything I said, just adhom.

I cordially invite to actually address the issues presented:

Post#543
Post#544
Post#545

refusing to do so is preaching
repeat posting without addressing any of the arguments presented is spam[/quote][/QUOTE]
 

Attachments

  • Tsevat - God And The Gods In Assembly An Interpretation Of Psalm 82.pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 0

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Garbage in garbage out. I'm tired of correcting desperation and shock at being unable to handle losing a debate.
1)you cannot identify faults, you are not a POhD, your superficial reading is just denial
Adhom. I certainly can. Crescent moon, lion throne, grammar error in "his ashera" errors in jewish law, hebrew translation problem in Psalms 82, assumptions about ugaritic names... no Yahweh inscription on the arrowheads, not 2 matzevot at tel adar... etc.
2) your red herring about explain a complex process in lay terms rather than accept a consensus in a field or the consensus isn't valid is truly conspiracy theory nonsense
No, it simply shows that you believe it without reasons, you beleive it without understanding it.
3)you still think the example of intertexuality you botched meant anything? YOu were wrong. There were parallels and th eexample was valid. Yahweh did not inherit names, his enemied did, you must be so caught up in trying to find a way out of this that you can't see a simple example
the point is, it's a weak example, and it's probably the best they have. No, there are no other parallels in the baal cycle to Yahweh other than 2 words and a similar name. Oh, right Yahweh is a warrior and so is Baal. That's extremely weak to show intertexuality.

You think it sounds rational to say, "differences show borrowing". But can't explain a single reason why. You won't even look at a picture that obviously shows Dever's imagining things.
4)not only were the examples fine, there was an entire book recommended for further study. As well as several textbooks all saying the same about the consensus. Which I've had to state over and over, at one point you denied, then switched to attacking the intertextuality example, then went back to denial, like you have an Exel sheet of tricks to keep trying.
yes, MEH.
The book is a book of essays, which are probably even weaker than the Isaiah 27 example. nd, BTW, there aren't any other books discussing intertexutality and the Hebrew bible that I've found. No major articles about it. No other youtube videos about it. I'm not changing the subject. I'm saying intertexuality doesn't have concensus.

And besides the truth is, these myths were translated using the Hebrew bible. So going back to claim that Isaiah was borrowing from it based on a similar name and a similar word, is just plain silly.
But heck, let's use a more conservative scholar who is more cautious with things, even he agrees there are fertility statues used in early Israelite culture. And Yahweh is not some God who gave revelations to people but is a conflation of other deities..
Great!
My original point continues to be correct. This is a complicated MAN MADE story, happened just as one would expect a man made mythology to form. And blending Gods, blending myths is syncretism.
There has not been any evidence of blending gods. There's evidence of a few similarities, but that in function and theology, its rejection of these other gods. And even the few examples of similarities that are given are either weak or incorrect. The myths weren't blended. The best example of that is the flood story, and, the canaanite story was added 1000-1300bce. There's evidence of the Israelites as a people pre-1200bce in mesopotamia. It's not just the egyptian inscription, also archeological evidence in Megiddo, the architecture and the pottery shows signs of mesopotamian construction. If it was just the pottery then, made these were imports. But the pottery and the architecture is a little more convincing. If you accept the persian myths coming from an oral tradition, then you need to accept the Jewish myths from oral tradition as well.
The Origins of the Israelites


Dr. Aren Maeir


1213-1203 BCE - Merneptah Inscription (mentions people in Canaan)

No other evidence.
First of all, he's talking about Israel, the name. And I brought you 50 pages of other evidence.
11:08 most scholars reject any other evidence until after 1000 BCE
Buzzzzzz! MISQUOTE. MISQUOTE AGAIN. :rolleyes:
He's talking about a specific 2nd inscription. He says some scholars say it also speaks about Israel as a people. he says most scholars don't read it that way. But, it's not that important.

IOW, the one well known inscription is enough to conclude that Israelites were a people pre-1200bce. And that means this scholar does not agree with Baden.
18:18 - when you look at the material culture of the early Israelites, a lot of it is VERY SIMILAR to the Canaanites. A few possible non-local objects.
and again, if they were so similar, then, no one really knows who did what
By and large most of the early Israelite culture, religious and cultic objects, names, Gods, writing, etc.. - seem to be coming out of the Canaanite culture.
culture, common practice, sure.
19:00 The current status that Israelites come from Canaanites fits the evidence the fullest manner. Portions of the Israelites may have come from other nations, Egypt, Siria, Iran, Trans-Jordan.
great!
Same explanation as Joel Baden.
17ish-17:30. he describes a theory that sounds a lot like Bade's theory. And he says that this is not accepted by most. I notice you left that out of your comments. This scholar says that the idea that the Israelites created a new identity for themselves is not agreed on by most scholars. Isn't that the "story" Baden told in his video. I'm pretty sure it is...
Same as Dever.
Dever imagines things.
The Origins of the Ancient Israelite Religion | Canaanite Religions | Mythology
Yay! More video!
1:38 most of what we know about Israelite religion shows it was heavily influenced by Canaanite religion. El and Baal’s attributes and names are incorporated into the attributes and even the name of the Israelite God.
the common name is erroneous. These attributes need to be examined.
2:53, there is evidence of depictions of Israelite God, figurines, male and female. Although less than other cultures.
There you go! Some people did stuff not super kosher. Sounds perfectly normal to me. Not a large group. and the male figurines are extremely rare, and most if not all archeologists and historians dispute that they are idols.
3:33 in artifacts there seems to be more than one God. Yahweh and perhaps Ashera or another goddess.
Hee. Of course you cropped out the beginning of what he says. "here and there... in artifacts there seems to be..." So it's very rare. And it's a maybe. And you cropped out the end where he says... "according to some". So, it's not a concensus. That's what I've been saying.

So, yes, you're curated youtubes make it seem like a concensus. But the truth is, it's not. These are rare, they're a maybe, and only some people interpret it as Yahweh and a female partner.
Appears that polytheism and then monolatrist ideas were part of Israelite culture.


5:26 Egyptian God Aten may have been first monotheism.

5:45 monotheism may have started with the Persian theology, possible influence.


6:25 archaeology shows there were other beliefs besides monotheism in Israel.
So here, he's giving many different options, but he also says it's possible that monotheism was a belief held by a minority.
8:28 Up to end of Iron Age it’s often called Israelite religion, Judaism is from Persian period onward.
OK, its just a label.
12:35 The name “Israel”, the “El” ending is another God. Yahweh took on names and attributes of other Gods into his identity. Over time Yahweh became the important deity.
a similarity of names is erroneous because the canaanite tablets were decipherd using Hebrew.
13:20 our vision of Yahweh as a single God may be very much influenced by later understandings projected back into the Iron Age.
But, as stated, monolartist is probable. Which described as the other gods are so different and so insignificant that Yahweh is the only one like it. Strict monotheism came later? OK.
13:45 Is there a link between Persian religion and Israelite beliefs?

Persia controlled Israel and exiles.

Monotheism, good vs evil, …Persian traditions did come into contact with Israel but determining influence on these is difficult.

(Apocalyptic literature is Persian) -
Correct! He said the persian influence is very hard to determine, and it could have been happening in both directions. And, he's not talking about apocalyptic literature which is a genre. The theological links are extremely weak.

The ideas that are supposedly borrowed are only slightly alluded to in the original persian texts, and these are also slightly alluded to in Judaism. if one accepts the persian oral stories as credible, then one must also deem the Jewish oral stories as credible to be consistent.
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Nope. Funny how if something is unknown then it's automatically an Israelite creation. That is confirmation bias. Funny how you like to use "probably" when they are on things that you feel will back you up.
Well, there is more on monotheism - probably -
No.... you said:

We don't know when monotheism started.

And that means, it can't be assumed to have been borrowed from persians, if it pre-dated exposure to the persians in 550ish BCE.

Not only that, but now we have clear evidence from the Zoroastarian scripture, that they were not monotheists. So, and this is so simple,

If there was some monotheism among the ancient Israelites, and we don't know when it started, and the persians weren't monotheists, and the babylonians weren't monotheists, and the common Israelites were probably monolartist... then... monothesism wasn't borowed and you can remove that from the "borrow-list".
2:53, there is evidence of depictions of Israelite God, figurines, male and female. Although less than other cultures.

3:33 in artifacts there seems to be more than one God. Yahweh and perhaps Ashera or another goddess.

Appears that polytheism and then monolatrist ideas were part of Israelite culture.


5:26 Egyptian God Aten may have been first monotheism.

5:45 monotheism may have started with the Persian theology, possible influence.


6:25 archaeology shows there were other beliefs besides monotheism in Israel.


The Origins of the Ancient Israelite Religion | Canaanite Religions | Mythology


So, we have yet another false statement.
SPAM. Ignored. Already responded, you are cordially invited to reply to what I said.
Adler doesn't think there are no contradictions he has issue with figuring out who wrote what.
Right. Its the host of the video who has admitted that the documentary hypothesis has problems. And it does.

As Adler points out, who, what, and when of the Hebrew bible is completely conjecture. Opinion based on incomplete information.

And BTW, do you know how they date the bible? They look at some of the bible stories, and assume they're true, and historical. Kinda crazy, right?
As to apocalypticism, it's Persian and there is reasonable evidence that they influenced the Jewish writers.
It's a literary genre... who cares?
Apocalypticism | theology
apocalypticism, eschatological (end-time) views and movements that focus on cryptic revelations about a sudden, dramatic, and cataclysmic intervention of God in history; the judgment of all men; the salvation of the faithful elect; and the eventual rule of the elect with God in a renewed heaven and earth. Arising in Zoroastrianism, an Iranian religion founded by the 6th-century-BC prophet Zoroaster, apocalypticism was developed more fully in Judaic, Christian, and Islāmic eschatological speculation and movements.
Wait a minute, wait a minute... did you notice that????
"founded by the 6th-century-BC prophet Zoroaster" Joel, this source completely disagrees with Boyce. Isn't Boyce the one and only authority on this? Could it be, there isn't a concensus? :rolleyes:
The Origins of Jewish Apocalyptic Literature: Prophecy, Babylon, and 1 Enoch

the Book of Watchers, 1 Enoch 1-36, was written as a result of the Babylonian Exile and its authors syncretized the Hebrew prophetic books with Babylonian elements.

While there is ample evidence that Jewish apocalyptic literature draws from many wells from the cultural milieu of the ancient Mediterranean and Near East, the earliest, the Book of the Watchers (Enoch 1-36), seems to date from the Babylonian exile or shortly thereafter
pseudepigrapha.... irrelevant... again.
Dr Collins is the expert, David is considered to be in this genre.
and yet he makes a little boo-boo about the Hebrew bible... pretty much all your sources do. PHDs arent perfect. Idolizing them is a mistake. ;)
Old Testament Interpretation

Professor John J. Collins
Yay!!! More video!

8:50ish... the "expert" makes a mistake. He claims that there is no "baptism" in Judaism prior to this passage in Ezekiel.... Ummmmm Nope. The book of Leviticus speaks more than a few times instructing about a water of sprinkling. It's an extremely famous topic. The "red heffer", "parah adumah"? Maybe you've heard of it. Those who are impure are sprinkled with it? So what is Collins talking about? That's not a new idea.

12:10 a possible inspiration for Ezekiel treatment of dead (valley of bones) was Persian myth
Except... he's completely missing the point! They're Dry Bones. Dry! he just finished talking about how purity and water imagery is important to Ezekiel and then he misses the entire point that these are dry bones in deed of water and purification.

Instead he focuses on the "picked clean" imagery.
14:20 resurrection of dead in Ezekiel, incidentally resurrection of the dead is also attested in Zoroastrianism, the Persians had it before the Israelites. There was no precent for bodily resurrection in Israel before this time. No tradition of bodies getting up from the grave. The idea of borrowing can be suggested.
Except, that's not what your other source said...

"founded by the 6th-century-BC prophet Zoroaster" 6th century? That's not before Judaism. Now, maybe, maybe, if we look to the Yasht, which is in younger Avesta, and we take the early dating, then maybe they had it earlier. But, Collins simply doesn't know that a bodily ressurection is alluded to in the Exodus story.
In Ezekiel this is metaphorical.
Yup.
The only book that clearly refers to bodily resurrection is Daniel.
Fine, it's an outlier. But that doesn't mean the idea didn' exist pre-Daniel.
17:30 resurrection of individual and judgment in Daniel, 164 BC. Prior to this the afterlife was Sheol, now heaven/hell is introduced.
Is it a final Judgement? In Daniel it only says some will and some won't.
Resurrection of spirit. Some people are raised up to heaven, some to hell.
Well.... yes and no. It doesn't say Hell, does it. It's just a vision. It's not literal. But, yes, some will some won't. That's NOT a final judgement. And it doesn't match the persian end-time prophecy.

This whole apocalypse borrowing thing is a bust. It's a literary genre. No theology was borrowed. Not syncretic. That happens in pseudepigrapha, NT and Islam.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
  1. The gods smelled the sweet odour of the sacrificial animal and gathered like flies over the sacrifice. Gilamesh translation
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; a Noah translation

:rolleyes:

וירח יהוה את־ריח הניחח ויאמר יהוה אל־לבו לא אסף לקלל עוד את־האדמה בעבור האדם כי יצר לב האדם רע מנעריו ולא־אסף עוד להכות את־כל־חי כאשר עשיתי׃

Where's the word "sweet" in here^^? where's the word "savour" in here^^?
14:05 acceptance of mortality theme in Eden and Gilamesh story


25:15 Gilgamesh flood story, Sumerian flood story comparisons

26:21 - there are significant contrasts as well between the Mesopotamian flood story and it’s Israelite ADAPTATION. Israelite story is purposely rejecting certain motifs and giving the opposite or an improved version (nicer deity…)
Ignored. SPAM. repeats. Your are cordially invited to repond to the comments I made.
I don't care if you don't accept the concensus. Attempting to trivialize a few examples of something all scholars are beyond convinced of, especially when you haven't done a detailed study of this and do not have the skills to properly make the comparisons, it's just another apologist whining about how it's "not really that similar"
If it's wrong, it's wrong no matter who says it.

What you really need to do is stop copying a pasting, and actually make a list. What are all f these similarities. Then we can go through them one at a time.

And remember, similarities of names are erroneous. The canaanite myths come from ugarite tablets. And those tablets have no vowels, and they were deciphered using the Hebrew language. So names are going to be similar, it means nothing.

Do some thinking for yourself... step away from the youtubes. It'll be good for you.
If you are that dedicated to Yahweh dictating the story to Moses then confirmation bias your way to whatever truth you need to believe.
You don't know me, or my beliefs.

Remember that false claim about the Jpost reporter. And then to save face you found some christian website and copied their words and falsely claimed they were the reporters?

Yeah. That's a pretty good example of your lack of accuracy when judging people.
I have already demonstrated scholars who specialize in this material have zero doubt. I'm not going to find a word by word scholarly breakdown just so at the end you can switch from doubt to straight denial. It's already out of the bag.
You're inability to refute what I said about syncretism is noted. Your own source repeatedly refutes that Judaism is syncretic.
Remember all those times you rejected evidence because it wasn't a PhD. That was on purpose.
FALSE! I never did that. I reject false claims.
  1. Yahweh is not reffered to as bull
  2. Yahweh does not live in a tent on a mountain
  3. Yahweh is not the father of gods, not "the father"
  4. Yahweh is not in the council of a pantheon of gods
  5. El is not a god in Judaism, el is a preposition
  6. Singular of Elohim is Elohai
  7. Yahweh isn't even a storm god
  8. The baal cycle is nothing like the stories in Tanach
  9. LTN is not a sea monster
  10. Leviathan doesn't have 7 heads
  11. Baal doesn't defeat LTN
  12. The first words in Gen 1 are not "when God began creating..."
  13. Gen 1 and Gen 2 do not contradict
  14. Noahs flood doesn't contradict
  15. There is no contradiction in the Law
  16. Baptism wasn't introduced late in ezekiel
  17. Ruach is spirit in Genesis, it's not introduced late
"there is no question as far as Biblical scholars and Assyriologists are concerned that the Biblical text is much later than Mesopotamian text and it’s borrowing directly or subtly from Mesopotamia."
The mesopotamian text was deciphered using the biblical text. Almost 100 years later someone claims the biblical text is borrowing in the other direction. :rolleyes:
Flood Myths Older Than The Bible - Dr. Joshua Bowen


Assyriologist who specialized in Sumerian literary and liturgical compositions
You're repeat posting the same video as before. This was a fail before, it's a fail now.
1:25

OT scholars will say Genesis is using a Mesopotamian background and apologist will say
Nice claim.. and of course demonizing anyone who disagrees. If he had a strng argument, he wouldn't need to demonize.

That goes the same for you, Joel.
“Well no, there is no literary evidence that shows it borrowed, we cannot show literal evidence”…”it was in the air”….”how do you know it wasn’t true”…….somehow downplaying the Mesopotamian background…
All you have to do is bring actual evidence
2:57 Dr Josh Bowen - there is no question as far as Biblical scholars and Assyriologists are concerned that the Biblical text is much later than Mesopotamian text and it’s borrowing directly or subtly from Mesopotamia.
nice claim. How come I can't find anyone else talking about this intertexuality stuff? There doesn't seem to be any one else who shares this view. When people talk about the mesopotamian influence what do they talk about?

Look at how different the stories are, look at how different the themes are. The bible rejects the mesopotamian myths.
References monograph - Subtle Citation, Allusion and Translation in the Hebrew Bible by Z. Zevit. Explains intertexuality and what Hebrew Bible is doing. Not seen as plagiarism in the ancient world.
Yay! The same book. He doesn't quote any of it, does he? he doesn't bring any examples, does he? So, here we have the same 1 book, repeatedly referenced, as if repeating the same 1 thing over and over is supposed to be convincing.
21:00

Enuma Elish, Babylonian creation myth Genesis 1 borrows from, is recited every year at the New Years festival. Exiled Israelite kings were in captivity in Babylonia. Genesis was written after the Exile.
the Jewish people were exiled 100 miles away. The festival was in the city. That was the whole point of the reading. Babylon was Marduk's city. The few people who were in Babylon, the royals... they were prisoners. Do you think they would adopt the myths of their captures? Does any of this actually make sense?
And what's the actual places where it was borrowing? Where are the examples?

You skipped it. Why? Because it's 1 word. T'hohm. That's it. And a mistranslation of the the first word in Genesis.

And primordial water? Ummmm, in Genesis God created that water. And tohu v'bohu is a chaos and void. Not primordial water.
Genesis demythicizes the Babylonian stories.
It is a rejection of the babylonian myths.

And again, if you pay attention to what he's saying, the idea is, that everything in the story is the same but they make one change, that God is so much bigger and so much badder than the babylonian gods, that it's borrowed. And people are supposed to be able to notice this if theyre familiar with the babylonian myth.

Everything else has to be the same... it needs to be recognizable...

The enuma elish is so so so different, the comparisson doesn't work.

He sings a little song. That's supposed to be an example. But the tune, and melody, and the words, and everything about the song is the same except he changed Big John, to Big Josh. That's it? Sure, that makes sense, the little song is borrowed.

It needs to be MORE than similar.
23:22

“(Well we don’t know which came first), is nonsense, we do know. The textual tradition for the flood story is much much earlier than the Biblical text. Israel is NOT EVEN A……”
That's not true. 1) Israel was a people before 1200bce. the enuma elish is 1000-1300bce. 2) Who wrote it first is irrelevant.

And it doesn't matter if he demonizes the critics as apologists... it doesn't matter if you demomize critics as apologists.

If this is a n actual thing, then the examples need to be more than 1 or 2 words matching.

And... of course, the Jewish people weren't even in Babylon for this festival which is such an important part of the argument.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Definitely syncretic.
That's not what Catherine Hayes says.
Syncretism involves the merging or assimilation of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion,
the theology wasn't assimilated.
The Origins of the Ancient Israelite Religion | Canaanite Religions | Mythology




1:38 most of what we know about Israelite religion shows it was heavily influenced by Canaanite religion. El and Baal’s attributes and names are incorporated into the attributes and even the name of the Israelite God.


2:53, there is evidence of depictions of Israelite God, figurines, male and female. Although less than other cultures.

3:33 in artifacts there seems to be more than one God. Yahweh and perhaps Ashera or another goddess.

Appears that polytheism and then monolatrist ideas were part of Israelite culture.
2:35 The name “Israel”, the “El” ending is another God. Yahweh took on names and attributes of other Gods into his identity. Over time Yahweh became the important deity.


13:20 our vision of Yahweh as a single God may be very much influenced by later understandings projected back into the Iron Age.
Ignored. Spam. You are cordially invited to comment on what I said previously.
The eden myth, flood story, typical Near Eastern deity, probably a mix of El and Baal?
The eden myth is completely different. The flood story has similarities, but is also very different. The theology is opposite. Also, not a typical near eastern deity. The other gods were born, had families, had their own spheres of influence. The creation process is completely different. Yahweh is all-mighty over all the forces of nature.
Persian apocalyptism.
it's a literary genre, not a theology. The details for the apocalypse in persia come from texts at best 300CE. before that, there's only minor details. yes there's an end to sickness ( that's in Deuteronomy ). yes there's an end-of-days ( that's in genesis ), yes there's a ressurection ( that's alluded to in Exodus ).
Every scholar showing religious ideas were incorporated into the mix. That is syncretic.
No, there have been several scholars who detail these ideas, and the other theologies are rejected. That's not syncretic. That's the opposite of syncretic.
Yes Dever shows a crescent moon and then shows it in other cultures as well associated with the goddess. You think you caught Dever in a lie because you disagree with a photo? This is absurd?
No, he doesn't show a crescent moon. here's the picture.
Screenshot_20230129_121553.jpg


That is not a moon at all. It's not that i caught him in a lie. I caught him imagining things that aren't there. He admits it in the video and says "you have to take my word on it". He knows this is not a moon.

And honestly, i should probably go back and watch the video again. He pulls stuff from all over, not from Israel. This may not even be from the region.
Ashera??? It's one of 3 fertility goddesses? So? I dropped the inscription because I'm tired of apologetic denial, I'm completely done with this nonsense. You haven't raised one single reasonable point, you just pat yourself on the back on crank?
You dropped it because you can't refute anything brought. All female goddesses are being lumped together, their names don't matter, their function doesn't matter, the forgeries don't matter, hebrew grammar doesn't matter, the location of the artifacts doesn't matter... none of it matters. The accuracy of the whole asherah thing is null.
Yes the inscription on the arrow said blessed by Yahweh and his Ashera.
FALSE. I showed you before. I'll show you again.

Screenshot_20230213_141700.jpg


Screenshot_20230213_141751.jpg



Source: Comments on the Rise of Secondary States in the Iron Age Levant on JSTOR

Screenshot_20230213_142056.jpg


Source: New Evidence for Belomancy in Ancient Palestine and Phoenicia on JSTOR
At a cemetary in Israel from the biblical Kingdom of Judah.
If this is from Francesca... she is lying to you. Go find this imaginary arrowhead from a cemetary. It doesn't exist. There's only 2 inscriptions with Yahweh and maybe "his" female deity. That's it, and they both appear to be foreries. One of them was purchased by Dever while he was at a bruial site. But the inscription wasn't actually found there.
The evidence DOES back that up. I'm just done with amateurs asserting scholarship is "wrong" and going in circles.
Go find this arrowhead. Go look for it. It should be famous. Anything having to woth a Yawheh inscription is famous. It... doesn't.... exist.
When things die down you go back to a subject and pretend like it was you who set it all straight.
Hey, I've found plenty of things that are incorrect in your sources. No sprinkling of purifying waters until ezekiel? That's so completely false. It's in leviticus... it's the red heffer!!! Everyone knows this. Except your so-called expert.
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
A feminine goddess is recognized by all these scholars. A look at all of the available evidence shows the inscription does say Ashera.
No, that's not a concenus. It might among your currated experts who are lifted up by the youtube atheist community.
And here we are back at this. Soon we will be back at Exodus and the few slaves who might have come up, even though Baden said the complete story is more complicated, the general story is what he explained. But still, that became a thing, even though he said NO EXODUS IN THE BIBLE IS TRUE.
Well, one of your sources described Baden's "story" about the Israelites conjuring up a new identity for themself something most scholars disagree with. So yeah. Baden's not this perfect source. And, his so-called contradictions in the bible are bogus. he also claimed that Psalm 82 was about a pantheon, and I called that one out from the beginning. it doesn't make sense, and i was right. Same thing with Deuteronomy 32, he says it didn't make sense until it was compared to some pagan myth? Baloney. It makes perfect sense.
Spin this stuff all day, I'm not interested.
Of course not, you have a religious-style belief. And came to RF to preach about it.
"Yahweh and His Asherah": The Goddess or Her Symbol?

Hebrew “his Ashera”




A New Analysis of YHWH’s asherah
Have you actually read this report? Do you understand what it's saying? Would you be able to identify a fault in it if it existed?
Conclusion

Through examining the various proposals that have been made for elucidating ʾšrth from KA and KQom we have been able to establish that it most likely has reference to a common noun denoting YHWH’s female partner: “his asherah.” This understanding of the phrase not only does no violence to the evidence that inscriptional asherah is a female deity paired with YHWH, but it also harmonizes best with the lexical-syntactic evidence that asherah is declined with a pronominal suffix with YHWH as the antecedent.

…we can begin by pointing out that the argument in favor of interpreting ʾšrth as a deity is in fact functional in nature and has fairly little to do with the lexical-semantic value of the term asherah as used in other NWS texts. The argument combines a number of factors both internal and external to the inscriptions, which can be listed in the order of their importance:


5) There is growing evidence for the worship of female deities in Iron Age Israel-Judah, including widespread use of pillar figurines, cultic dualism in the form of standing stones, and other pictorial imagery, such as an incised image of a god and goddess pair recovered from eighth-century Jerusalem (Kletter 1996; 2002; Uehlinger 1997; Köckert 1998; Keel and Uehlinger 1998; Johnston 2003; Dever 2005; 2014; Albertz 2008; Gilmour 2009; 2015; Bloch-Smith 2014; 2016; Römer 2015; L. Levine 2016; cf. Darby 2014; Stavrakopoulou 2016).


6) The lexeme asherah is often associated with female divinity in ancient Syria-Palestine, including in the Hebrew Bible (Day 1986: 385-408; 2002: 42-48; Wyatt 1999: 99-105; Merlo 2009a: 975-80).


Article sources over 200 peer-reviewed works
I asked you before, I'll ask you again. What is the assumed/required pronominal suffix, and how is that translated to "his" Asherah?

If you can't answer that, then you can't understand what's being said in this report.

The point being: there's issues here. There's better explanations. As one of the other RF'ers pointed out, Astarte is a much better fit. And I agree, in so many ways it's a better fit. Or maybe Yahweh and his guardian, is also a better fit.

But if we ignore all those other issues, and go with best case scenario, and assume the correct pronominal suffix, it's stil a 50/50 shot at being "his" Asherah.

That's it. At the end of the day it's 50/50. Dever even told you that the grammar doesn;t work. Supposedly there are exceptions, but, I cant find any. And, if you read the paper *and understand it* the author couldn't find any either. That's why he spends 1/3 of the very very long paper at the very beginning proving that the word in the inscription is actually a proper name. Then that way, the grammar problem is ignored.

So, what;s that suffix Joel? What is it? If you search for "hebrew pronominal suffix"... it won't be too hard to find. And then look at "his". Then look at this:

Screenshot_20230213_143836.jpg


Or maybe this:

Screenshot_20230129_151308.jpg


And then tell me what's missing... And given what's there is it actually "his"... as in masculine... ;)
Messiahs? Hmmm, did the Jews reject Jesus> Why was that? Because they are expecting a MESSIAH to come? Hmmm, didn't the Persians start that, why yes they did.
He was rejected because he sounded like a man possessed. That's the story. Also he broke the law. Also he wasn't annointed king.

And yes, the persians had multiple messiahs, multiple gods, their theology is quite different, and if there was influence it merely galavanzed a pre-existing belief.
Orthodox Judaism[edit]
Orthodox Judaism maintains the 13 Principles of Faith as formulated by Maimonides in his introduction to Chapter Helek of the Mishna Torah.[citation needed] Each principle starts with the words Ani Maamin (I believe). Number 12 is the main principle relating to Mashiach. Orthodox Jews strictly believe in a Messiah, life after death, and restoration of the Promised Land:[41][42]
the only thing similar is the english word "messiah"
Hasidic Judaism[edit]
Hasidic Jews tend to have a particularly strong and passionate belief in the immediacy of the Messiah's coming, and in the ability of their actions to hasten his arrival.
just the english word, that's the only thing in common.
And who occupied Israel from 500 BCE - 2ishBCE?
Judaism reject the persian theology.
Belief in a world Saviour

An important theological development during the dark ages of 'the faith concerned the growth of beliefs about the Saoshyant or coming Saviour. Passages in the Gathas suggest that Zoroaster was filled with a sense that the end of the world was imminent, and that Ahura Mazda had entrusted him with revealed truth in order to rouse mankind for their vital part in the final struggle. Yet he must have realized that he would not himself live to see Frasho-kereti; and he seems to have taught that after him there would come 'the man who is better than a good man' (Y 43.3), the Saoshyant. The literal meaning of Saoshyant is 'one who will bring benefit' ; and it is he who will lead humanity in the last battle against evil.c and so there is no betrayal, in this development of belief in the Saoshyant, of Zoroaster's own teachings about the part which mankind has to play in the great cosmic struggle. The Saoshyant is thought of as being accompanied, like kings and heroes, by Khvarenah, and it is in Yasht r 9 that the extant Avesta has most to tell of him. Khvarenah, it is said there (vv. 89, 92, 93), 'will accompany the victorious Saoshyant ... so that he may restore 9 existence .... When Astvat-ereta comes out from the Lake K;tsaoya, messenger of Mazda Ahura ... then he will drive the Drug out from the world of Asha.' This glorious moment was longed for by the faithful, and the hope of it was to be their strength and comfort in times of adversity.



it's almost like syncretism? Wait, what happens after the messiah comes? Is it a general resurrection and paradise on Earth in new bodies?

Revelations


but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously,
Yes, this is a repeat copy paste. Nothing about this resembles the Jewish Moshiach. I know I know you don;t care about details... or accuracy it seems.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Pahlavi text... again...OK. This is the Gbd. That's the Greater Bundahis. 900-1000CE. They mention a "Pahlavi text", that maybe pushes it back to 300CE. Common era.

Pahlavi texts

A collection of very rare titles written in or translated from Pahlavi, an Indo-Iranian language spoken and written in Persia from about the third to the tenth century A.D. Pahlavi is often restricted to the literary language of the Zoroastrian books.

Pahlavi texts | Brill

So, these names exist in the Gathas, but the end-time prophecy, does not exist in detail. There are 2 verses that mention it. Just 2. And there's really no detail. The concept exists, sure, but it's only alluded to in the Gathas.

16. To five do I belong, to five others do I not; of the good thought am I, of the evil am I not; of the good word am I, of the evil am I not; of the good deed am I, and of the evil, not.
To Obedience am I given, and to deaf disobedience, not; to the saint do I belong, and to the wicked, not; and so from this on till the ending shall be the spirits' parting. (The two shall here divide.)

And this:

10. Then truly on the (world of) Lie shall come the destruction of delight; but they who get themselves good name shall be partakers in the promised reward in the fair abode of Good Thought, of Mazda, and of Right.

The scholar crops out the last part of the verse, and only quotes the beginning. I can see that. Depending on the punctuation, it could be talking about the destruction of the "Lie". Then "Of delight but they wh get themselves good name..."​

There is no "white haoma" in the Gathas. There is a "Haoma", but its the name of a person. The 'white haoma' is mentioned in the Bundahishn. Thats 900 CE, common era.

Near to that tree the white Haoma, the healing and undefiled, has grown at the source of the water of Aredvisur; every one who eats it becomes immortal, and they call it the Gaokerena tree, as it is said that Haoma is expelling death; also in the renovation of the universe they prepare its immortality therefrom; and it is the chief of plants.​

The Gatha's certainly talk about immortality. But so do the Egyptians, so do the Chinese. But this specific story, it's not in there.OK. That's a lot of story... I can't find any of this in the Gathas... And there it is again. To find it in writing, one has to go the Pahlavi text. At best that's 300 Common Era. Pahl.Riv.dd, I think that's the Denkard... I think. That's where "Frashegird" is mentioned. It's 1000CE. There is no Frashegird nor Ohrrnazd in the Gathas. But if you want, we can call it a Pahlavi text, which is 300CE at the earliest, that's fine.Ah! There it is. Another uncreated entity. So it's not really that there is 1 god at all.Bam! THEY CREATED. Plural. Two creators. Yes! All of this is in the Gathas. But this isn't Judaism, you know that, right? Judaism rejects these ideas.But, did Ahura Mazda create "not-life"? No. Maybe Ahura Mazda created "life", but it's not clear.

And when these twain Spirits came together in the beginning, they created Life and Not-Life, and that at the last Worst Existence shall be to the followers of the Lie, but the Best Existence to him that follows Right.
And, Ahura Mazda is just 1 of the Ahuras, plural.

If Asha is to be invoked and Mazda and the other Ahuras and Ashi and Armaiti, do thou seek for me, O Vohu Manah, the mighty Dominion, by the increase of which we might vanquish the Lie.
What's an Ahura?

Ahura - Wikipedia

In the Gathas, the oldest hymns of Zoroastrianism and thought to have been composed by Zoroaster, followers are exhorted to pay reverence to only the ahuras and to rebuff the daevas and others who act "at Lie's command". That should not, however, be construed to reflect a view of a primordial opposition. Although the daevas would, in later Zoroastrian tradition, appear as malign creatures, in the Gathas the daevas are (collectively) gods that are to be rejected.

The Gathas do not specify which of the divinities other than Ahura Mazda are considered to be ahuras but does mention other ahuras in the collective sense.

In the Younger Avesta, three divinities of the Zoroastrian pantheon are repeatedly identified as ahuric. These three are Ahura Mazda, Mithra, and Apam Napat, the "Ahuric triad". Other divinities with whom the term "Ahuric" is associated include the six Amesha Spentas, and (notable among the yazatas) Anahita of the Waters and Ashi of Reward and Recompense.
So, there's a pantheon. And somehow this i suppsed to be something which was adopted, borrowed, by Judaism? Pah-lease. :rolleyes: So, we should ignore these younger writings about the pantheon, but only focus on the younger writings of the end-times, which don't match Jewish theology anyway. And if we read the Gathas there's worship of the sun, moon, starts, plants, animals, the works. But we should ignore that too...
[/quote][/quote][/quote][/QUOTE]




There is too much opposing information about the Persians. The expert according to all scholars who mention it is Mary Boyce.
I have one of her works and it's also online

http://www.dnzt.org/images/BOOKS-PH...Religious-Beliefs-and-Practices-MaryBoyce.pdf
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That's not what Catherine Hayes says.the theology wasn't assimilated.Ignored. Spam. You are cordially invited to comment on what I said previously.The eden myth is completely different. The flood story has similarities, but is also very different. The theology is opposite.


The Mesopotamian origins the Genesis stories are responding to is consensus. I don't care if an unqualified internet amateur disagrees. I have proven my point long ago.
Even the Eden myth:
The Hebrew Bible in Its Ancient Near Eastern Setting: Genesis 1-4 in Context




41:20 tree of life, common myth in this part of the world at the time. Bible is telling a variation or new interpretation of story.


Also, not a typical near eastern deity. The other gods were born, had families, had their own spheres of influence. The creation process is completely different. Yahweh is all-mighty over all the forces of nature. it's a literary genre, not a theology. The details for the apocalypse in persia come from texts at best 300CE. before that, there's only minor details. yes there's an end to sickness ( that's in Deuteronomy ). yes there's an end-of-days ( that's in genesis ), yes there's a ressurection ( that's alluded to in Exodus ).No, there have been several scholars who detail these ideas, and the other theologies are rejected. That's not syncretic. That's the opposite of syncretic.No, he doesn't show a crescent moon. here's the picture.

The Persian God was also supreme and uncreated.
"
God

t Zoroaster went much further, and in a startling departure from accepted beliefs proclaimed Ahura Mazda to be the one uncreated God, existing eternally, and Creator of all else that is good, including all other beneficent divinities. " Boyce


Original Israelite religion shows Yahweh was a member of a council of deities. Typical. Inana also was almighty and controlled everything. Yet again, an amateur who hasn't ever studies other Gods declares a Dr in Hebrew Bible and older religions to be wrong. Yes, most apologists just deny, deny, I do not care. I have demonstrated my point. Telling a master in Near Eastern religion what and what isn't a crescent moon in comparison is just hilarious. Just come out and say Satan made him say that.

"To run, to escape, to quiet and to pacify are yours, Inana. To rove around, to rush, to rise up, to fall down and to ...... a companion are yours, Inana. To open up roads and paths, a place of peace for the journey, a companion for the weak, are yours, Inana. To keep paths and ways in good order, to shatter earth and to make it firm are yours, Inana. To destroy, to build up, to tear out and to settle are yours, Inana. To turn a man into a woman and a woman into a man are yours, Inana. Desirability and arousal, goods and property are yours, Inana. Gain, profit, great wealth and greater wealth are yours, Inana. Gaining wealth and having success in wealth, financial loss and reduced wealth are yours, Inana. Observation (1 ms. has instead: Everything), choice, offering, inspection and approval are yours, Inana. Assigning virility, dignity, guardian angels, protective deities and cult centres are yours, Inana.

Acnan ...... august dais ....... Ickur who roars from the sky ....... His thick clouds ....... When ...... the great divine powers of heaven and earth, Inana, your victory is terrifying ....... The Anuna gods bow down in prostration, they abase themselves. You ride on seven great beasts as you come forth from heaven. Great An feared your precinct and was frightened of your dwelling-place. He let you take a seat in the dwelling-place of great An and then feared you no more, saying: "I will hand over to you the august royal rites and the great divine rites."

.. she performs a song. This song ...... its established plan, weeping, the food and milk of death. Whoever eats ...... Inana's food and milk of death will not last. Gall will give a burning pain to those she gives it to eat, ...... in their mouth ....... In her joyful heart she performs the song of death on the plain. She performs the song of her heart. She washes their weapons with blood and gore, ....... Axes smash heads, spears penetrate and maces are covered in blood. Their evil mouths ...... the warriors ....... On their first offerings she pours blood, filling them with blood.

49-59On the wide and silent plain, darkening the bright daylight, she turns midday into darkness. People look upon each other in anger, they look for combat. Their shouting disturbs the plain, it weighs on the pasture and the waste land. Her howling is like Ickur's and makes the flesh of all the lands tremble. No one can oppose her murderous battle -- who rivals her? No one can look at her fierce fighting, the carnage, the ....... Engulfing (?) water, raging, sweeping over the earth, she leaves nothing behind. The mistress, a breaking plough opening hard ground, ....... The braggarts do not lift their necks, ....... Her great heart performs her bidding, the mistress who alone fashions (?) ....... Exalted in the assembly, she occupies the seat of honour, ...... to the right and left.

60-72Humbling huge mountains as if they were piles of litter, she immobilises ....... She brings about the destruction of the mountain lands from east to west. Inana ...... wall ...... gulgul stones, she obtains victory. She ...... the kalaga stone ...... as if it were an earthenware bowl, she makes it like sheep's fat. The proud mistress holds a dagger in her hand, a radiance which covers the Land; her suspended net piles up fish in the deep, ....... As if she were a clever fowler no bird escapes the mesh of her suspended net. The place she has pulverised ......., ...... the divine plans of heaven and earth. The intention of her word does not ...... to An. The context of her confusing advice in the great gods' assembly is not known.


. mercy and pity are yours, Inana. ...... are yours, Inana. To cause the ...... heart to tremble, ...... illnesses are yours, Inana. To have a wife, ......, to love ...... are yours, Inana. To rejoice, to control (?), ...... are yours, Inana. Neglect and care, raising and bowing down are yours, Inana. To build a house, to create a woman's chamber, to possess implements, to kiss a child's lips are yours, Inana. To run, to race, to desire and to succeed are yours, Inana. To interchange the brute and the strong and the weak and the powerless is yours, Inana. To interchange the heights and valleys and the ...... and the plains (?) is yours, Inana. To give the crown, the throne and the royal sceptre is yours, Inana.
Your divinity shines in the pure heavens like Nanna or Utu. Your torch lights up the corners of heaven, turning darkness into light. ...... with fire. Your ...... refining ...... walks like Utu in front of you. No one can lay a hand on your precious divine powers; all your divine powers ....... You exercise full ladyship over heaven and earth; you hold everything in your hand. Mistress, you are magnificent, no one can walk before you. You dwell with great An in the holy resting-place. Which god is like you in gathering together ...... in heaven and earth? You are magnificent, your name is praised, you alone are magnificent!
A hymn to Inana (Inana C): translation

That is not a moon at all. It's not that i caught him in a lie. I caught him imagining things that aren't there. He admits it in the video and says "you have to take my word on it". He knows this is not a moon.

And honestly, i should probably go back and watch the video again. He pulls stuff from all over, not from Israel. This may not even be from the region.
You dropped it because you can't refute anything brought. All female goddesses are being lumped together, their names don't matter, their function doesn't matter, the forgeries don't matter, hebrew grammar doesn't matter, the location of the artifacts doesn't matter... none of it matters. The accuracy of the whole asherah thing is null.FALSE. I showed you before. I'll show you again.

I dropped it because I'm done with an apologist who denies references from people with anything less than a PhD and then tries to correct masters based on photographs of a subject you have zero knowledge in. AT BEST an amateur could say, hmmm, I don't see a moon (I do) but since I know nothing about the subject and he does I'll need to find out what these moons look like on other temples. He does show other moons, they are the same.
However the details are not important. The point is the Israelites were not what the Bible says. They were polytheistic, did use goddess figurines and everything Dever says is basically correct. All other scholars confirm the general idea is true.



Source: New Evidence for Belomancy in Ancient Palestine and Phoenicia on JSTORIf this is from Francesca... she is lying to you. Go find this imaginary arrowhead from a cemetary. It doesn't exist. There's only 2 inscriptions with Yahweh and maybe "his" female deity. That's it, and they both appear to be foreries. One of them was purchased by Dever while he was at a bruial site. But the inscription wasn't actually found there.Go find this arrowhead. Go look for it. It should be famous. Anything having to woth a Yawheh inscription is famous. It... doesn't.... exist.Hey, I've found plenty of things that are incorrect in your sources. No sprinkling of purifying waters until ezekiel? That's so completely false. It's in leviticus... it's the red heffer!!! Everyone knows this. Except your so-called expert.

No that is not Fransesca.
There are several inscriptions that mention Yahweh and Ashera. Two are mentioned here at 1:00 in this brief summary -

There are 5 inscriptions that mention Yahweh and Ashera, all are investigated here:
A New Analysis of YHWH’s asherah
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Nice story. Is it in the Gatha's? No.
BUZZZZZZ! That's a misleading statement.

U

The Gathas and the Younger Avesta: by Dr. Pallan R. Ichaporia

The claim is that full theology was written and destroyed. Maybe that happened. The same stories exist in Judaism. So, again, if one is going to be consistent, if the oral tradition is considered viable in Zoroastarian mythology, then the oral tradition in Jewish mythology also needs to be considred viable.which means "glory" or "fortune" It's not an individual in the Gathas. OK... not in the Gathas, confirmed. It's a Yasht 1000-600BCE.
Great, a later text details it.OK. That comes from Zamyad Yasht. 1000-600BCE.OK.

... became magnified as centuried passed.OK.

So, originally there were multiple saviours but no real details. And end-time was alluded to. No bodily ressurection anywhere. Early dating on this is 1700BCE. Then comes an idea of an individual savior and bodily ressurection. Early dating on that is 1000BCE. And then all the other details come from writing which at its earliest seems to be 300 CE.

Was the Zoroastarian mythology fully detailed at the time of contact with the Jewish people? No not fully developed. It was influx all the way up to the common era at least. Did they have a saviour concept? Sure. Did they have a ressurection concept? Sure. When was that developed? Early estimates has it before contact with the Jewish people. Late estimates has it at the same time as the contact with the Jewish people.

Wow, fantastic, you find a CEO of marketing and think you now know everything. Yet criticize my sources as if they are hobbyists. This is confirmation bias at the highest level.

Dr. Pallan R. Ichaporia has BA in Avesta/Pahlavi from Bombay University and attended Columbia University for Post Graduate Study in Iranian Languages under James Russell. He obtained doctorate in Business Administration from Oklahoma. He is currently CEO of Pharmaceutical Marketing Inc.

Yeah, I've noticed a lot of mis-information as well. Again, the expert is Boyce, and now you have one of her books.
http://www.dnzt.org/images/BOOKS-PH...Religious-Beliefs-and-Practices-MaryBoyce.pdf


In 1944, Boyce joined the faculty of the Royal Holloway College, University of London, where she taught Anglo-Saxon literature and archaeology until 1946. Simultaneously she continued her studies, this time in Persian languages,[3] under the guidance of Vladimir Minorsky at the School of Oriental and African Studies from 1945 to 1947. There she met her future mentor, Walter Bruno Henning, under whose tutelage she began to study Middle Iranian languages.

In 1948, Boyce was appointed lecturer of Iranian Studies at SOAS, specialising in Manichaean, Zoroastrian Middle Persian and Parthian texts. In 1952, she was awarded a doctorate in Oriental Studies from the University of Cambridge. At SOAS, she was promoted to Reader (1958–1961) and subsequently awarded the University of London's professorship in Iranian Studies following Henning's transfer to the University of California at Berkeley.

Boyce remained professor at SOAS until her retirement in 1982, continuing as Professor Emerita and a professorial research associate until her death in 2006. Her speciality remained the religions of speakers of Eastern Iranian languages, in particular Manichaeanism and Zoroastrianism.

In 1963–64, Boyce spent a research year among orthodox Zoroastrians of the 24 villages of Yazd, Iran. The results of her research there were formative to her understanding of Zoroastrianism and she discovered that much of the previously established scholarship on the ancient faith was terribly misguided. In 1975, Boyce presented the results of her research at her Ratanbai Katrak lecture series at Oxford University. In the same year she published the first volume of her magnum opus, The History of Zoroastrianism, which appeared in the monograph series Handbuch der Orientalistik (Leiden:Brill). Her Ratanbai Katrak lecture series were published in 1977 as A Persian Stronghold of Zoroastrianism.

In 1979, Boyce published Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, which not only summarised her previous publications (in particular volume 1 of History), but anthologised the role of Zoroastrianism during subsequent eras as well. This was followed by volume 2 of History of Zoroastrianism in 1982 (also as a part of the Orientalistik monograph series), and volume 3 in 1991 which she co-authored with Frantz Grenet. In 1992, she published Zoroastrianism: Its Antiquity and Constant Vigour as part of the Columbia Lectures on Iranian Studies which she had delivered there in 1985.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
And yet, Angel's have names before the so-called apocalypic writing in the Hebrew bible. Remember the story of Jacob wrestling with the angel? Jacob asks it's name. Remember the story of the angel visiting Manoah in Judges? They ask its name. So This notion that the Hebrew bible borrowed the idea of Angels having names late in cannon is false. The notion that the Hebrew bible changed the way angels are portrayed at some point in the Hebrew bible is false.

Wow, you correct the Yale Divinity lecturer, not. Write a paper, get it published and reviewed.
And yet, Angel's have names before the so-called apocalypic writing in the Hebrew bible.

The experts in the field are looking at the overall picture and this is the determination. Persian influence. Remember, garbage in garbage out. Your outright denial of contradictions in Genesis show you will just make things up if you have to. Not interested. I'm interested in peer-reviewed scholarship.


"
apocalypse is a mediated revelation usually from an angel (vision or actual) or transportation to heaven or hell mediated by angel. Uses symbolic language as well."

Apocalypticism | theology

-apocalypticism, eschatological (end-time) views and movements that focus on cryptic revelations about a sudden, dramatic, and cataclysmic intervention of God in history; the judgment of all men; the salvation of the faithful elect; and the eventual rule of the elect with God in a renewed heaven and earth. Arising in Zoroastrianism, an Iranian religion founded by the 6th-century-BC prophet Zoroaster, apocalypticism was developed more fully in Judaic, Christian, and Islāmic eschatological speculation and movements.


The Origins of Jewish Apocalyptic Literature: Prophecy, Babylon, and 1 Enoch

the Book of Watchers, 1 Enoch 1-36, was written as a result of the Babylonian Exile and its authors syncretized the Hebrew prophetic books with Babylonian elements.

While there is ample evidence that Jewish apocalyptic literature draws from many wells from the cultural milieu of the ancient Mediterranean and Near East, the earliest, the Book of the Watchers (Enoch 1-36), seems to date from the Babylonian exile or shortly thereafter


Old Testament Interpretation

Professor John J. Collins


12:10 a possible inspiration for Ezekiel treatment of dead (valley of bones) was Persian myth


14:20 resurrection of dead in Ezekiel, incidentally resurrection of the dead is also attested in Zoroastrianism, the Persians had it before the Israelites. There was no precent for bodily resurrection in Israel before this time. No tradition of bodies getting up from the grave. The idea of borrowing can be suggested.

In Ezekiel this is metaphorical.

The only book that clearly refers to bodily resurrection is Daniel.

17:30 resurrection of individual and judgment in Daniel, 164 BC. Prior to this the afterlife was Sheol, now heaven/hell is introduced.

Resurrection of spirit. Some people are raised up to heaven, some to hell.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It's not dishonest, I'm showing the actual words of the stories and showing how they don't match the examples that were given in the video.

And it's not my fault, you can't remember the examples given in the video. Yes! they talk about the seinfeld episode. And, it's not funny, it's a great example. The seinfeld episode clearly borrows from the movie JFK. Since you can't remember and instead make false allegations. ( Like you did with the Jpost reporter ), I'll have to show you. Which is fine.

So you need to distinguish between intertexuality, borrowing a motif, and influenced in a way that bolsters their divergent world-view.


Wow, suddenly you have a PhD in intertextuality? Oh, you don't? You are just an amateur making grandiose claims? Stinks for me because this is a huge waste of time.

Thanks for the expose on Seinfeld which I skipped. And the sleight of hand backpeddling. Yes, your claims were absurd. All that work and you still can't even show the thing that matches. I'll do it again I guess?

Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathin the coiling serpent

Litan the fleeing serpent Litan the twisting serpent.

Also it's the consensus.
Michael Zank, Professor of Religion, Jewish Studies, and Medieval Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences at Boston Universit

PhD in Near Eastern and Judaic Studies from Brandeis University

Enuma Elish and Genesis

Let us ask just one question about Genesis 1-11 in comparison with the Akkadian creation epic: how do human beings appear in these two stories?

To ask this question, we do not need to decide in advance whether the authors of Genesis deliberately produced a counter-narrative that took Enuma Elish as its negative foil or Vorlage. There are indications that this was so, but it may be just as well to consider Genesis as having been written by scholars who were aware of the need to produce something like Enuma Elish for the b’ney ha-golah (the exiles), something that articulated and preserved the values of Judahites and Israelites in a foreign land who were wrestling with the experiences of loss of sovereignty, deportation, displacement, and an uncertain future.

The story about the tower of Babel alone indicates that those authors served a community impressed by, as well as skeptical of, Babylonian achievements. Exposed to a far more populous and powerful civilization, the future “Jews” found the language to diminish what was before their eyes and put it in its place in ways that still ring profound and true today.

How did they do it? What is it in the language of Genesis 1-11 that achieves these results? These results could not have been achieved had the authors of Genesis been entirely ignorant or completely silent on Babylonian matters. Only by responding in their own idiom to the ancient and well-known Akkadian creation myth and, in the flood story, also to elements of Gilgamesh, were they able to create a story of creation that was to substitute for that of their more powerful Babylonian hosts. In the long term, the creation of Genesis rather than the ancient Akkadian epic served as the touchstone of civilizations that inherited the Bible and disseminated it across the globe.

The ancient myths that prompted the authors of Genesis to write as they did never vanished completely. One might even say that it was Genesis itself, with its subtle allusions to alternate ways of conceiving of the beginning, which prepared the ground for the eventual retrieval of its intertextual other.

Just as we now know, thanks to the archaeological and epigraphic retrieval of Ancient Near Eastern texts and traditions, that Genesis did not appear in splendid isolation but was shaped out of its preconditions and from within particular contexts, we can also observe that Genesis did not act in splendid isolation when it advanced to the status of the foundational story of other communities, even nations and empires, who read those ancient Israelite and Judahite texts in new situations and with new eyes, for they also read these texts with their old eyes.
So let us ask ourselves that one question. What is the role of the human being in Enuma Elish and what is the role of the human being in Genesis 1-11?

When it comes to the answer to this question, the difference between these texts could not be more pronounced. That difference would be meaningless if the texts could not be compared, if these texts had no relation to one another, if there was no “intertextuality” that linked them just enough to see where they align and where they depart from one another.

To answer briefly, while in Enuma Elish the creation of human beings is an afterthought and their purpose is to serve as an accouterment to the lifestyle of the gods, the creation of Genesis puts human beings in the place of the gods. It is not by accident when the Psalmist muses, “You made him only slightly less than God” (Psalm 8:5).

Genesis 1 barely conceals the existence of the divine retinue, of lesser gods and angels, but it reduces them to spectators and a silent chorus. (See Gen 1:26) Only later, in rabbinic midrash are the spectators and silent chorus given words that are unabashedly[1] assumed to have been spoken before the creation of the human being.[2] Like the Christians, the Jews of late antiquity imagined God as part of a pleroma, a fullness rather than an emptiness.

So the difference of Genesis is not that there are no lesser gods or divine beings but that it is almost completely silent about them. This includes a barely acknowledged silence, a may-he-who-has-ears-to-hear-get-the-hint of something barely remembered, or rather well remembered but now barely alluded to, namely, the great combat myth that was indelibly linked with the reputation of Marduk, god of cities, that is meant to be ignored, though not entirely forgotten. This, too, later readers remembered well. Not only those mindful of the vanquished saltwater chaos dragon, that monstrous goddess Tiamat slain in the beginning to save the gods and from whose carcass the habitable world was created, but others, too, who believed that YHWH Elohim slew Rahab and captured the Leviathan whose flesh will be the feast of the righteous at the end of days. (Rahab: see Job 9:13 and Job 26:12, Ps 89:10, Isa 59:9; Leviathan: see Job 3:8, 41:1.12, Psalm 74:14, 104:26, Isa 27:1) These lively images of primordial threat to existence contained by heroic divine intervention returned in stories about the battles of Christ and the saints against Satan and his lot.

Again, the creation of Genesis contains all this but barely hints to it. Instead it trains its spotlight on the human being. All other questions are rendered irrelevant: where was God’s wind before it hovered over the deep/tehom? Why and for what purpose did he fashion what he spoke into being? Why, in his majestic cohortative soliloquy, does He create human beings “in our likeness”? Did not Ea fashion Marduk after his likeness? Isn’t Christ the true likeness of God, the one who is even called by his name, a veritable “son of the sun” or, as in the Orthodox creed, “light from light?”

In Genesis, sonship or slightly-lesser-than-Godship, is conferred on human beings. In Enuma Elish, on the other hand, humans are created from the blood of Kingu, an evil figure, and hence their eternal enslavement to the gods is more than skin-deep. It is a condition that cannot be shed. It is their fate to serve the gods.

The story that the Babylonians read and reenact every fall during the season of the New Year is about divine kingship, the kingship of Marduk and the kingship and priesthood of few, their right to rule over the many: humans are meant to feed the gods. Without the gods and their protection, diligently mediated by the priest-king, they had nothing to eat themselves. The eternal merit of the gods rests on their providing the conditions of life, while life remains under the fragile protection of the gods. Stop feeding the gods and see what happens. Change their rites and you will fail. Disturb their temples and deprive them of their proper sacrifices and you will perish.

It is no accident that Babylonian Jewry, and Jews ever since, recall creation and divine kingship in the fall, the season when the world was created. Like the Babylonian New Year, Jewish festivities are drawn out from the first of the month of Tishrey (the names of the Jewish months are Babylonian) to the tenth of the month, the solemn day of atonement, followed by eight days of seasonal festivities recalling the Israelites’ sojourn in the desert. While there is no overt reference to Babylonian religion, the manner in which Jews recall creation and associate it with divine enthronement echoes the sequence of events in Enuma Elish. Creation and divine enthronement are meaningfully associated only if creation involves an assertion of supreme power over non-creation, chaos, perdition. As in Enuma Elish, though not so obviously in Genesis. Not if one reads it with the diminished range of overtones that were still audible to those in whose ears rang those other tunes.

It seems to me that these later readers of Genesis, themselves steeped in Babylonian, Egyptian, Syriac, Greek, and Roman traditions approached the text from contexts and with connotations that resembled those represented in Enuma Elish. They did not object, on principle, to the notion that the world was “full of gods,” as the Stoics taught, or that worlds came and went and were prone to destruction and regeneration. Theirs was a much more colorful universe than what we might imagine if we approach the Bible with the mental asceticism and puritan austerity of Calvinists. The ancient readers were hardly iconoclasts. Theirs was a world of divine beings, messengers, powers ruling the air, and a Supreme Being ruling all. That Supreme Being, the God hidden to the eyes of men, was not residing in splendid isolation but surrounded by a court and happy in that he had a son created in his likeness who was obedient to the point of sacrificing his own happiness to please his father. In other words, theirs was the world of Enuma Elish, or one very much like it.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Yes, let's believe what ever we hear and not engage our brains at all... :rolleyes:

wrong is wrong regardless of who says it.

Is it a crescent moon? Still waiting on that answer. Is it a lion throne? Still waiting on that answer.

.

An amateur (not even), a novice in Near Eastern temple religious art, with an agenda to show Judaism as original, thinks he owns the knowledge and authority to even challenge a symbol which Dever has been investigating his entire career and into retirement. Find a biblical archaeologist who believes these are not crescent moons and you will at least have an opposing opinion.
But it doesn't really matter. It isn't even a point. Crescent moon or no, the female goddess is the consensus.

Yes it's not clear what the figurines were used for because it was a different time, however the consensus among scholars is that it represents a goddess similar to Yahweh.

One expert scholar has a book saying YES.

The Cult of Asherah in Ancient Israel and Judah: Evidence for a Hebrew Goddess
Judith M. Hadley


Recent archaeological discoveries have encouraged scholars to reinvestigate the Israelite religion. In this book, Judith Hadley uses these discoveries, alongside biblical material and non-biblical inscriptions, to examine the evidence for the worship of Asherah as the partner of God in the Bible. By investigating the Khirbet el-Qom and Kuntillet Ajrud inscriptions, for example, where the phrase ‘Yahweh (and) his asherah’ is frequently in evidence, the author asks what the ancient Israelites meant by this, how they construed the relationship between Yahweh and Asherah, and whether in fact the term referred to an object of worship rather than to a goddess. The iconography of Asherah is also discussed, alongside female figurines from the Bronze and Iron Ages thought to represent her. As well as exploring the etymology and origins of Asherah, the author evaluates more recent scholarship to substantiate her conclusions. This is a detailed and brilliant study which promises to make a significant contribution to the ongoing debate about the exact nature of Asherah and her significance in pre-exilic Israel and Judah.

is Associate Professor of Hebrew Bible and Archae- ology, in the Theology and Religious Studies Department

And the leading expert in Israelite figurines say although unknown, the most held opinion in scholarship is they are a goddess and likely pair with Yahweh.

Dr Erin Darby, expert in Hebrew Bible, early Judaism, biblical archaeology, religion and Judean pillar figurines

https://www.coursera.org/lecture/bible-history/darby-interview-gZbL6

:50 Temele figurines found at temple sites in Israel

3:29, number one interpretation is it’s a major goddess, Ashera, Astatre


6:40 figurines only found within the boundaries of Judah, betrays the sense of identity (that is portrayed in scripture). 8th century, continue all the way to the destruction of temple. Use of figurines is unknown
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
What's weird is, here you say one thing. And then here you say the opposite.

Let's make this really obvious.




Total contradiction.
And I responded to this. Again I'l respond. You can't seem to address the points.

1) These are not cosmic enemies in the Hebrew bible. Death is not a god that gets destroyed. Leviathan is not a god that gets destroyed. The sea is not a god that gets destroyed.
2) The stories don't even match up correctly.
  • Leviathan is a sea monster, LTN isn't
  • LTN breathes fire, Leviathan doesn't
  • LTN has 7 heads, Leviathan doesn't
  • Yahweh defeats Leviathan, Baal doesn't
  • Death is destroyed forever in Isaiah, Death is destined to return in the Baal Cycle
.


Yes there are differences. The apologist in the video they are debunking does the same and the 2 PhDs explain that the intertextuality is heavy between the 2.
The example is good, it's the same line used and Yahweh inherits these enemies. The experts in intertextuality say it's 100%.
Were this a Hindu and Persian text I'm. sure you would have no problem and assume they understand THEIR FIELD.

In the video they explain making literal comparisons will be misleading. I don't know enough about the subject, however they do. Every textbook written by experts also agrees, as I demonstrated.
Write a paper and get it peer-reviewed. I am interested in scholarship, not amateur crank and snowballing. If you don't care about what experts say, that is your choice. I care about what is true.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Another lack of attention to detail.

You clipped the end off that said it was probably monolartist. Soft montheism. I didn't say that you clipped off probably. It's right there in front of you.

View attachment 71651


Not on intertexuality, not on persian influence, not on syncretism...
OK Good. Now we can talk about something different. Instead of repeating he same old, copying and pasting cherry picked nonsense. and then claiming all you care about is a strawman argument. We can talk about something real.

Psalm 82 does not talk about a pantheon. The last verse doesnt make sense.

In order to show you this, I have to go way back. Its become doctrine, and no one seems to question it. And, we need to get a Jewish scholar, talking to a Jewish audience, because otherwise, no one is going to notice the problem.

Now, this author, agrees that Psalm 82 is a pantheon. Of course I disagree. But the point is, this is not an apologist. This is a scholar from the Reform Movement, writing to a liberal Jewish audience. That means, they're scholars, they respect secular academics. They're not bible thumping true believers.

View attachment 71652

Now, what is going on here...

The author just finished giving their translation and interpretation of the psalm as Yahweh in a council in a pantheon.

But, he had to change a word in the last verse.

The last verse doesn't actually say YHVH in it. That's a change. The actual verse says Elohim. If Elohim are supposed to be a pantheon of gods, then, the last verse makes no sense.

How does this Jewish scholar address this, in order to make the case that this is, actually, a psalm about a pantheon? He has to change the last verse, and then claim that a redactor went thought these psalms and changed it, and that it originally was supposed to be Elohim, but the other places where it says Elohim is fine. So he has to change ot back, in order to support the claim that this is a council of a pantheon.

It's a completely convoluted, nutty, way to look at the psalm, and this is how the documentary hypothesis works. Someone assumes there's an elohist, who is changing things all over the place, and then we change it back. it's a mess.

If we're going to start changing words around, and claiming scribal errors and such, which happens at the end of the document. Then, I can easily change a vowel on the first line, and suddenly it's not the council of El, it's "divine testimony". It's just one vowel different.

So there's that. Confirmation that the psalm doesnt make sense as a council of gods, because the last verse conflicts, and the only way to make it correct, is to change the verse, removing the conflict. I doubt you'll want to read the document, but I'll attach it in case anyone else might want to read it. Note, the highlighting isn't mine. That's part of the scan.

Now, you asked for a historical scholar that agrees with me that this is NOT a council of a pantheon? Sure!

Here you go: Death of the אלהים in Psalm 82 on JSTOR

This goes through extremely carefully and in extreme detail, knocks down the council of a pantheon. The idea is, the Psalm is condemning Kings who believe they are god-like. It makes perfect sense. For those who actually want to read it, the important background is that Jewish ( and other ) commentators for a 1000 years, or maybe more, have been translating the psalm to be talking about Judges judging unfairly. I still think that's a perfectly fine way to read it. That's the way it's normally translated in Jewish collections of the Psalms. This scholar looks at it differently. And while hes doing it, completely refutes the whole pantheon argument. He even uses other ugaritic myths to make the case saying that these other myths are better matches if one wants to look to those for context.

View attachment 71654

View attachment 71655



yes, you misquote. And no, I'm not bending words. The entire lecture is about how NOT syncretic Judaism is.

Ad hom. And yes you do need a strong argument, unless you think it's true cause they say it's true.Your own sources say that Judaism isn' syncretic. That's where the debate is now
You cannot refute what I've said. All you have it, ad hom, and faith.Show me the Yahweh figurine. Indicate where that is in the videos. And you definitely get points for proving me wrong.Oh good grief, this is SPAM.
I went thru the whole video and commented on it. You couldn't refute anything I said, just adhom.

I cordially invite to actually address the issues presented:

Post#543
Post#544
Post#545

refusing to do so is preaching
repeat posting without addressing any of the arguments presented is spam
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

It says there are few Psalms that have such high disagreement on interpretation. Ok? So? There are a lot of interpretations? I'll address this? James M. Trotter is Lecturer in Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, Murdoch University, Perth, Western Australia.

Wow, you are really freaking out about this Psalm. There are many other indicators that Yahweh was part of a divine council. This wasn't even one of the main examples. The lectures covered some examples.
There is an early Deuteronomy variant and other scriptures.
Some was covered in the links below.
But this doesn't say anything about Yahweh not being in a divine assembly? In fact, look at his other publications, he is clearly aware of this polytheism being discussed, just not in Psalm. -

  • “The Transition from Polytheism to Monotheism in Ancient Israel and Judah,” International Society of Biblical Literature Annual Conference, Edinburgh, Scotland, July 2006.
  • “Polytheism in Monarchic Period Judah,”Australia New Zealand Society for Theological Studies Annual Conference, Perth, July 2005.
  • “Persian Imperial Influence in the Construction of the Second Jerusalem Temple,” American Schools of Oriental Research Annual Conference, Orlando, November 1998.
  • “Reading within the Lines: The Function of the Superscription and Postscript of the Book of Hosea,” Society of Biblical Literature Annual Conference, San Francisco, November 1997.
Yahweh and Ashera


Professor Joel Baden PhD

5:45

No doubt there were people in ancient Israel that thought Yahweh had a consort Ashera

8:54

Yahweh is a mix of all sorts of stuff
Original Yahweh - he is a storm God from the south

W

Then there is all this stuff Israel borrowed from Canaanite religion



Then there is stuff Israel borrowed from Egyptian religion and Mesopotamian religion in various ways.



Parts of the Bible Yahweh appears to be part of a pantheon, just as Canaanite Gods.



and
Lecture 2. The Hebrew Bible in Its Ancient Near Eastern Setting


0:22 - Bible shares cultural heritage of Near Eastern mythology but has it’s own take.

Bible written by elites (7th to 4th century) had a specific radical new worldview and imposed it on the earlier Israelite religion - monotheism.
38:30 Same as Dever, Israelite/Judean religion was not what is portrayed in Bible. Bible is written later and re-tells story of Israel.

39:42 in all likelihood, going by archaeology and scripture, Hebrews of an older time were not much different than it’s Near Eastern neighbors. Archaeology would suggest this.

Worship of household idols, fertility deities, engaged in various syncretistic practices, PROBABLY

40:49 Yahweh was probably very similar to the other gods of Canaanite religion - evidence suggests


40:52 continuities with Canaanite AND ancient Near Eastern religions are apparent in the worship practices and cult objects of ancient Judah and Israel as they are described in biblical stories and as we find in archaeological finds.

Bible contains sources of polytheism. Genesis 6, Nephilim - divine beings who descend to Earth and mate with humans.

Psalms - descriptions of meetings and conversations between multiple gods.


43:08 literate and monotheistic circles within Israelite society put a monotheistic framework onto the stories and traditions of the nation. They molded them into a foundation myth to shape Jewish identity. Possible start at 8th century. Projected their monotheism onto an earlier time. Monotheism is represented as beginning with Abraham - historically speaking it most likely began MUCH LATER. Probably as a minority movement. This creates the impression of the Biblical religion.


44:54 apologetics forces scripture to be monotheistic, the text is actually contradictory and inconsistent


45:27 - Creation story added to Pentateuch in one of the last rounds of editing, probably 6th century.


46:00 Genesis used and adapted themes from Near Eastern mythology
 

joelr

Well-Known Member

garbage in garbage out is YOUR standard. You put it into use.


You think it sounds rational to say, "differences show borrowing". But can't explain a single reason why.

Right, (lie), Dr Joel Baden, Dr Bowen, Dr Hayes, Dr Collins and so on, are not reasons at all?

Then, even funnier, you go and base an entire post on one paper and the opinion in that paper. Of course if I used that you would be all over the "highly different interpretations", but it's great that you have a completely different set of standards for you. Use scholars when it helps, disregard scholars when it helps, misdirect Yale Lectures as if it's "youtube" when it helps.
Please, continue digging deeper.



So, yes, you're curated youtubes make it seem like a concensus. But the truth is, it's not.


no youtube isn't a consensus. Dr Baden, Dr Bowen, Dr Hayes, Dr Collins and all experts saying it's consensus is what makes it a consensus.
Demonstrating textbooks saying it's true by top scholars makes it consensus.
Experts saying all historians agree makes it consensus. I've made my case. I do not care if you choose to ignore scholarship.


16:00 John Collins, Introduction to the Hebrew Bible 3rd ed.


“Biblical creation stories draw motifs from Mesopotamia, Much of the language and imagery of the Bible was culture specific and deeply embedded in the traditions of the Near East.



16:28 2nd ed. The Old Testament, Davies and Rogerson


“We know from the history of the composition of Gilamesh that ancient writers did adapt and re-use older stories……


It is safer to content ourselves with comparing the motifs and themes of Genesis with those of other ancient Near East texts.


In this way we acknowledge our belief that the biblical writers adapted existing stories, while we confess our ignorance about the form and content of the actual stories that the Biblical writers used.”


17:24 - The Old Testament, A Historical and Literary Introduction to the Hebrew Scriptures, M. Coogan


“Genesis employs and alludes to mythical concepts and phrasing, but at the same time it also adapts transforms and rejected them”


17:55 God in Translation, Smith


“…the Bibles authors fashioned whatever they may have inherited of the Mesopotamian literary tradition on their own terms”


18:19 THE OT Text and Content, Matthews, Moyer


“….a great deal of material contained in the primeval epics in Genesis is borrowed and adapted from the ancient cultures of that region.”


19:30 Subtle Citation, Allusion, and Translation in the Hebrew Bible, Zevit


Methods for identifying intersexuality and understanding borrowing


The Formation of Genesis 1-11, Carr


“The previous discussion has made clear how this story in Genesis represents a complex juxtaposition of multiple traditions often found separately in the Mesopotamian literary world….”



30:15 specific criteria that can be used to form a methodology for identifying intertexuality (availability, volume, shared language, )


41:00 The Priestly Vision of Genesis, Smith


“….storm God and cosmic enemies passed into Israelite tradition. The biblical God is not only generally similar to Baal as a storm god, but God inherited the names of Baal’s cosmic enemies, with names such as Leviathan, Sea, Death and Tanninim.”
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
And remember, similarities of names are erroneous. The canaanite myths come from ugarite tablets. And those tablets have no vowels, and they were deciphered using the Hebrew language. So names are going to be similar, it means nothing.

Here the amateur who knows more than the consensus in the field sets the rules. The same rules the apologist did in the video debunked by 2 PhDs in biblical historicity. And now you are an expert in Canaan and Ugarite and can say what means nothing. Even though you are not trained! Wow, amazing. Anyways, enjoy your make believe world.


Do some thinking for yourself... step away from the youtubes. It'll be good for you.You don't know me, or my beliefs.

Actually after this I do.


Remember that false claim about the Jpost reporter. And then to save face you found some christian website and copied their words and falsely claimed they were the reporters?

Yeah. That's a pretty good example of your lack of accuracy when judging people.You're inability to refute what I said about syncretism is noted. Your own source repeatedly refutes that Judaism is syncretic.FALSE! I never did that. I reject false claims.

No you don't. You reject claims that don't support beliefs you hold. This is incredibly obvious. I understand, I don't care. I demonstrated my position is backed by scholarship. It's over.






The mesopotamian text was deciphered using the biblical text. Almost 100 years later someone claims the biblical text is borrowing in the other direction. :rolleyes:
You're repeat posting the same video as before. This was a fail before, it's a fail now.Nice claim.. and of course demonizing anyone who disagrees. If he had a strng argument, he wouldn't need to demonize.

That goes the same for you, Joel.
All you have to do is bring actual evidencenice claim. How come I can't find anyone else talking about this intertexuality stuff? There doesn't seem to be any one else who shares this view. When people talk about the mesopotamian influence what do they talk about?

HA, see, next post you prove me correct! Denial, then denial of the top scholars and then an unsupported opinion about Mesopotamian myths and Genesis. That isn't what happened but I no longer care about this because you will just use denial if all else fails.
Oh, I did post another scholar posting about intertextuality.

Enuma Elish and Genesis | Michael Zank
Intertextuality is the technique used to demonstrate and determine that myths are related, rather than superficial reading.

"When it comes to the answer to this question, the difference between these texts could not be more pronounced. That difference would be meaningless if the texts could not be compared, if these texts had no relation to one another, if there was no “intertextuality” that linked them just enough to see where they align and where they depart from one another."

Michael Zank, Professor of Religion, Jewish Studies, and Medieval Studies in the College of Arts and Sciences at Boston Universit

PhD in Near Eastern and Judaic Studies from Brandeis University

Look at how different the stories are, look at how different the themes are. The bible rejects the mesopotamian myths.

Good, you admit they sources Mesopotamian myths and re-wrote them to make a better story. That is the entire point. It wasn't a revelation from Yahweh. It was people writing stories.



Yay! The same book. He doesn't quote any of it, does he? he doesn't bring any examples, does he? So, here we have the same 1 book, repeatedly referenced, as if repeating the same 1 thing over and over is supposed to be convincing.the Jewish people were exiled 100 miles away. The festival was in the city. That was the whole point of the reading. Babylon was Marduk's city. The few people who were in Babylon, the royals... they were prisoners. Do you think they would adopt the myths of their captures? Does any of this actually make sense?

Apparently they would take them and create a different version, changing their idea of God to be a bit nicer. This is the entire point. It's man made and sourced from older myth. Maybe they made up a better deity, maybe they blended ideas about some Canaanite deities who were also nicer than the Mesopotamian Gods?
Scholars suggest this as well
The Origins of the Ancient Israelite Religion | Canaanite Religions | Mythology




1:38 most of what we know about Israelite religion shows it was heavily influenced by Canaanite religion. El and Baal’s attributes and names are incorporated into the attributes and even the name of the Israelite God.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
:rolleyes:

וירח יהוה את־ריח הניחח ויאמר יהוה אל־לבו לא אסף לקלל עוד את־האדמה בעבור האדם כי יצר לב האדם רע מנעריו ולא־אסף עוד להכות את־כל־חי כאשר עשיתי׃

Where's the word "sweet" in here^^? where's the word "savour" in here^^?
Ignored. SPAM. repeats. Your are cordially invited to repond to the comments I made.If it's wrong, it's wrong no matter who says it.
it's not always the exact word. you are not going to change the consensus.

Epic of Gilgamesh XI
Ancient Near East
When a seventh day arrived I sent forth a dove and released it. The dove went off, but came back to me; no perch was visible so it circled back to me. I sent forth a swallow and released it. The swallow went off, but came back to me; no perch was visible so it circled back to me. I sent forth a raven and released it. The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back. It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me. Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed (a sheep). I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat. Seven and seven cult vessels I put in place, and (into the fire) underneath (or: into their bowls) I poured reeds, cedar, and myrtle. The gods smelled the savor, the gods smelled the sweet savor, and collected like flies over a (sheep) sacrifice. Just then Beletili arrived. She lifted up the large flies (beads) which Anu had made for his enjoyment: You gods, as surely as I shall not forget this lapis lazuli around my neck, may I be mindful of these days, and never forget them! The gods may come to the incense offering, but Enlil may not come to the incense offering, because without considering he brought about the Flood and consigned my people to annihilation.


Genesis 8:21
Hebrew Bible
20 Noah built an altar to the Lord. He then took some of every kind of clean animal and clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the Lord smelled the soothing aroma and said to himself, “I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, even though the inclination of their minds is evil from childhood on. I will never again destroy everything that lives, as I have just done. 22 “While the earth continues to exist, planting time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, and day and night will not cease.”


where is intertextuality?

intertextual.bible | Biblical Intertextuality | Genesis

Ancient Near East

 
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