JESUS, God, the Ordinal First and Last

[joelr]

That's not what Catherine Hayes says.the theology wasn't assimilated.Ignored. Spam. , I've found plenty of things that are incorrect in your sources. No sprinkling of purifying waters until ezekiel? That's so completely false. It's in leviticus... it's the red heffer!!! Everyone knows this. Except your so-called expert.

Purifying waters are in many places, I'm sure that the Yale PhD isn't "wrong". Write her an email and she will probably correct you. I invite you to. LOL. It's in Isaiah
End of the world, general resurrection, coming messiah, Persian. Yahweh, typical deity. Syncretic.


Francesca Stavrakopoulou PhD

9:00 nothing in the Bible is original, Yahweh is the same as all older Gods.




Francesca Stavrakopoulou Discusses Her Latest Book,

3:15 Yahweh is the same as older Greek gods. Anthropormorphic, dynamic, colorful, emotional, vivid, changeable, masculine, real body parts. In "God: An Anatomy" Francesca explains the Hebrew text is very explicit in this.

 

[joelr]

No, that's not a concenus. It might among your currated experts who are lifted up by the youtube atheist community
And yes, the persians had multiple messiahs, multiple gods, their theology is quite different, and if there was influence it merely galavanzed a pre-existing belief.the only thing similar is the english word "messiah"just the english word, that's the only thing in common.Judaism reject the persian theology.

Says the internet expert. Quite different? Wow. You need to tell all scholarship immediately!!!
Well anyway, Mary Boyce says:
Doctrines

fundamental doctrines became disseminated throughout the region, from Egypt to the Black Sea: namely that there is a supreme God who is the Creator; that an evil power exists which is opposed to him, and not under his control; that he has emanated many lesser divinities to help combat this power; that he has created this world for a purpose, and that in its present state it will have an end; that this end will be heralded by the coming of a cosmic Saviour, who will help to bring it about; that meantime heaven and hell exist, with an individual judgment to decide the fate of each soul at death; that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the dead and a Last Judgment, with annihilation of the wicked; and that thereafter the kingdom of God will come upon earth, and the righteous will enter into it as into a garden (a Persian word for which is 'paradise'), and be happy there in the presence of God for ever, immortal themselves in body as well as soul. These doctrines all came to be adopted by various Jewish schools in the post-Exilic period, for the Jews were one of the peoples, it seems, most open to Zoroastrian influences - a tiny minority, holding staunchly to their own beliefs, but evidently admiring their Persian benefactors, and finding congenial elements in their faith. Worship of the one supreme God, and belief in the coming of a Messiah or Saviour, together with adherence to a way of life which combined moral and spiritual aspirations with a strict code of behaviour (including purity laws) were all matters in which Judaism and Zoroastrianism were in harmony; and it was this harmony, it seems, reinforced by the respect of a subject people for a great protective power, which allowed Zoroastrian doctrines to exert their influence. The extent of this influence is best attested, however, by Jewish writings of the Parthian period, when Christianity and the Gnostic faiths, as well as northern Buddhism, all likewise bore witness to the profound effect: which Zoroaster's teachings had had throughout the lands of the Achaernenian empire.


Polytheism????? Wow, you know so much. And it totally supports the beliefs you already hold. What a stroke of coincidence!

Monotheism
presenting Zoroastrianism to Muslim Iran he was naturally happy to stress the theory of Zoroaster's rigid monotheism, without any taint even of theological dualism. 'The contest is only between the spirits of goodness and evil within us in the world .... Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, stand as the fundamental principles of the religion of Zarathustra. And this is a perennial source of glory and pride to Iran and the Iranians, that once in that land one of its sons gave this grand message to humanity, to keep themselves aloof even from bad thoughts' (pp. 48, 50-1). The Zoroastrians warmly welcomed Pur-Davud's efforts to win recognition for the nobility of their faith among those who had so long despised it as polytheism and fire-worship.

Salvation or hell



Zoroaster's teachings contained much to anger and trouble his people. In offering the hope of heaven to everyone who would follow him and seek righteousness, he was breaking, it seems, with an aristocratic and priestly tradition which consigned all lesser mortals .. to a subterranean life after death. Moreover, he not only extended the hope of salvation on high to the humble, but threatened the mighty with hell and ultimate extinction if they acted unjustly. His doctrines concerning the hereafter were thus doubly calculated to outrage the privileged; and to rich and poor alike his rejection of the Daevas must have seemed rash and dangerous, being calculated to draw down the wrath of those divine beings on the whole community. Further, the grand concepts of the one Creator, dualism and the great cosmic struggle, with the demand for continual moral endeavours, may well have been difficult to grasp, and, once grasped, too challenging for the ordinary easy-going polytheist.



Good vs evil and freewill



Harsh experience had evidently convinced the prophet that wisdom, justice and goodness were utterly separate by nature from wickedness and cruelty; and in vision he beheld, co-existing with Ahura Mazda, an Adversary, the 'Hostile Spirit', Angra Mainyu, equally uncreated, but ignorant and wholly malign. These two great Beings Zoroaster beheld with prophetic eye at their original, far-off encountering: 'Truly there are two primal Spirits, twins, renowned to be in conflict. In thought and word and act they are two, the good and the bad .... And when these two Spirits first encountered, they created life and not-life, and that at the end the worst existence shall be for the followers of falsehood (drug), but the best dwelling for those who possess righteousness (asha). Of the two Spirits, the one who follows falsehood chose doing the worst things, the Holiest Spirit, who is clad in the hardest stone [i.e. the sky] chose righteousness, and (so shall they all) who will satisfy Ahura Mazda continually '----1\n with just actions' (Y 30.3-5). essential element in this revelation is that the two primal Beings each made a deliberate choice (although each, it seems, according to his own proper nature) between good and evil, an act which prefigures the identical choice which every man must make for himself in this life . The exercise of choice changed the inherent antagonism between the two Spirits into an active one, which expressed itself, at a decision taken by Ahura Mazda, in creation and counter-creation, or, as the prophet put it, in the making of 'life' and 'not-life' (that is, death); for Ahura Mazda knew in his wisdom that if he became Creator and fashioned this world, then the Hostile Spirit would attack it, because it was good, and it would become a battleground for their two forces, and in the end he, God, would win the great struggle there and be able to destroy evil, and so achieve a universe which would be wholly good forever.


Freewill, choice

the basic Zoroastrian doctrine of the existence of free-will, and the power of each individual to shape his own destiny through the exercise of choice.


Revealed word

the Medes and the Persians held whauhey believed to be the revealed word of God.

 

[joelr]

Yes, this is a repeat copy paste. Nothing about this resembles the Jewish Moshiach. I know I know you don;t care about details... or accuracy it seems.

Because Judaism isn't waiting for a Messiah to come and herald the end times where everyone resurrects and earth is a paradise? Dr Collins has presented some parallels from Persia

Right I hate accuracy, that's why I listen to the Yale Divinity speakers, mainly because they make stuff up at whim and are super inaccurate. In fact they don't even study the Hebrew Bible, they just go to atheist videos and take notes. Yeah thanks for exposing the bias with the atheist comment! In the non cognitive bias world these scholars are attempting to find the actual truth, not influenced by fundamentalist beliefs in mythology.



but yes, keep the attempts to frame sourcing scholarship as "copy paste" because that isn't transparent or anything (you say that as you post Seinfeld?) "Spam" is also good. Oh boo-hoo I can't use scholars because it's "spam". Is Spam the meat that clouds your intellect with beliefs so you cannot accept scholarship anymore if it contradicts an imagined narrative?

I was engaging with a fundamentalist when you stepped in. I said the Bible isn't literal, a female deity (Ashera) was worshipped and Genesis was Mesopotamian mythology reworked. This has been demonstrated 1000 times over. In the first response. The rest is nonsense, crank and snowing.

As Dr Carrier says, and why I try to stick to those IN the field:

In March of 2018 the NonSequitur show hosted a debate between two YouTubers: Godless Engineer, who runs the popular eponymous atheist channel, and Michael Jones, who runs the popular Christian apologetics channel Inspiring Philosophy. The topic was whether evidence establishes Jesus existed. The whole debate illustrates the problem with only asking amateurs to debate things like this (neither participant has a relevant advanced degree or any peer reviewed publications in the subject).

I think they both run good channels. Obviously I find a lot of what Jones argues on his channel to be face-palmingly bad, as all Christian apologetics is, but he does some of the best communicating of what are, honestly, common beliefs and assumptions among his peers. And Godless Engineer, with whom I obviously more often agree, likewise runs a sharp and entertaining channel and is even doing great work editing the CHRESTUS app developed to assist with debating the historicity of Jesus (with significant updates currently in the pipe), for which I’m a paid consultant, ensuring the quality of its content. But live, an issue like this needs expert discussion. Because when Jones makes claims any historian can easily poke holes in, Engineer won’t know he’s being snowed. Nor will the audience or the host. And this is a methodological issue, not a partisan one. Even if you’re rooting for the other team, you can say the same thing, the other way around: how do you know Michael Jones and the public isn’t being snowed by Godless Engineer? Both participants are disarmed; and both prone to error. So why run these “all amateur” debates? I see no sound reason to. It can only spread disinformation and miseducate the public.

I won’t fisk the whole debate or evaluate the technical performance of either side (you can watch it all online: Part 1 and Part 2). That’s irrelevant trivia—and at any rate, as you’ll soon see, Jones made such an enormous quantity of mistakes, even an expert would have lacked sufficient time to call them all out. Nor will I examine every detail of their debate. Instead, I’ve been hired as an actual expert—with both a Ph.D. in ancient history from Columbia University and numerous peer reviewed academic publications in the actual subject of the historicity of Jesus—to respond to 99 things Michael Jones said in this debate. The 99 items were chosen by my patron. As that’s already quite a lot of things, I’ll be as brief as sense allows, but already I have to split this into two parts, just as they did. But in every case, what I hope you’ll notice as a general theme is why Jones’ being an amateur leads to the audience getting snowed by what sound like solid arguments but actually don’t hold any water in real historical reasoning.

I’ve commented on this problem before, even coming from actual experts: see How to Successfully Argue Jesus Existed (or Anything Else in the World). That article covers a lot of important ground relevant to every point here following. But this Q&A illustrates a particular variety of—ironically, for those who get the pun—the non sequiturs of historicity apologetics. For each item I’ll provide a rough quote of Michael Jones, and in parentheses the video and block of minutes in which it appears, followed by my respo

 

[101G]

to all,
the ordinal Last, who died on the cross, a NATURAL DEATH, is the "LORD" God almighty of the OT in an ECHAD of ONE PERSON. no other culture, or religion makes this claim. for OT WRITTING points to a NT covenant that is EVERLASTING, meaning its binding, and cannot be broken by either party. so where is there evidence in any kind of writing that a NT of one's repentances and baptism is required for ETERNAL LIFE in any culture, or nation religion? many say some culture writings parallels the bible, if so, why
not parallel it with a BINDING NT? if there is please post it.

Case in point. the Forsaking of God the Ordinal Last on the Cross, that allowed the HOLY SPIRIT to indwells us in "POWER". was not this foretold of the Abraham and Issaic story? the RAM that was sacrificed instead of Abraham .... "ONLY" Son. so why a Ram? was not its "horns" caught in a thicket. dose not "horns" figuratively represent "POWER?"

by this forsaking on the cross released the full "POWER" of God in human Form.

do we not today have the FULL POWER of God in us today, via the Holy Spirit?

so, do any culture, or nation religion make this claim?

101G.

 

[joelr]

to all,
the ordinal Last, who died on the cross, a NATURAL DEATH, is the "LORD" God almighty of the OT in an ECHAD of ONE PERSON. no other culture, or religion makes this claim. for OT WRITTING points to a NT covenant that is EVERLASTING, meaning its binding, and cannot be broken by either party. so where is there evidence in any kind of writing that a NT of one's repentances and baptism is required for ETERNAL LIFE in any culture, or nation religion? many say some culture writings parallels the bible, if so, why
not parallel it with a BINDING NT? if there is please post it.

Case in point. the Forsaking of God the Ordinal Last on the Cross, that allowed the HOLY SPIRIT to indwells us in "POWER". was not this foretold of the Abraham and Issaic story? the RAM that was sacrificed instead of Abraham .... "ONLY" Son. so why a Ram? was not its "horns" caught in a thicket. dose not "horns" figuratively represent "POWER?"

by this forsaking on the cross released the full "POWER" of God in human Form.

do we not today have the FULL POWER of God in us today, via the Holy Spirit?

so, do any culture, or nation religion make this claim?

101G.

Because someone writes a story doesn't make it true. No matter how many times it mentions ETERNAL LIFE or whatever else you capitalize.
But the basic ideas are not new at all. Christianity is a Jewish version of Greek myths already practiced at the time. Yes savior deities died fighting evil for their followers, before Jesus. Either way even if Jesus was the first, that doesn't make it true. Lord of the Rings was very new takes on mythology. It's not true.


Hellenistic Ideas of Salvation, Author(s): Paul Wendland
Source: The American Journal of Theology , Jul., 1913, Vol. 17, No. 3 (Jul., 1913), pp. 345-351
Published by: The University of Chicago Press Stable URL: Hellenistic Ideas of Salvation in the Light of Ancient Anthropology on JSTOR

"
Christian and Hellenistic ideas of redemption cannot be sharply separated.....
The deity's resurrection from the dead gives to the initiates, who see their own destiny prefigured in his adventures, hope of a life after death…. the soul, conscious of its divine origin, strives for redemption from its foreign and unrelated companion, the body. It seeks deliverance from things sinful, material, and mortal. But the fundamental motive in these various representations is the same; it is longing for elevation above the earthly world and its ruling powers, i.e., for deification. The end of redemption is a life of eternal blessedness. The redeemer is the deity to whose service one devotes his whole life in order to obtain his help and favor.
The consciousness of estranecment between man and God, and a longing to bridge this chasm, are fundamental to all religions of redemption. In the development of antiquity from the sixth century B.c. on, this type of thought, for which the way is already pared in the older elements of popular faith, confronts us a definite and vigorously increasing religious movement. Reformers, prophets, and puritans propagate a profounder piety, which often mystic in character. The ecstatic Dionysus religion becomes the most important factor in this development. In this religion t common people, the poor and the needy, directly attain a more profound and personal relation to the deity. The believer loses his individual consciousness in enthusiasm and receives the divinity into himself. In moments of orgiastic ecstasy he experiences the ultimate goal of his existence, abiding fellowship with the god, who, as redeemer and savior will free him through death from the finiteness, the suffering, and the exigencies of the earthly life. Orphism sets forth this religious experience in a mystic theology which exerts a strong influence upon Pindar and Empedocles, for example, and which suggested to Plato his magnificent treatise on the dest of the soul.

According to Posidonius the soul has a heavenly origin. It is an offshoot from the fiery breath of God held captive in the prison-house of the body through birth into the earthly world, but destined for return to its higher home. Only he who in life preserves the divine part from defilement will ascend after death above the lower spheres and rise to the divine source. Our reverence for the starry heaven above us and for the wonders of the cosmos proves the human soul's relation to the heavenly world, and this mystical consciousness of likeness with the divine begets an other-worldly ideal of life.

From the second century A.D. on we possess rich source materials regarding the mystery cults and the profusion of new religious developments which grow out of the syncretism of the time. These sources acquaint us with the prevailing religious tendencies of antiquity in its declining period. Purification and rebirth, mystical union of the believer with the deity and the hope of bliss in the future world, revelation and charismatic endowment which essentially constitute redemption-these are the motives dominating the rites, sacraments, faith, and teaching of this syncretism. As enjoined in the liturgy of the Phrygian mysteries.
But notions and expressions akin to Hellenistic mysticism are already present in, the Pauline doctrine of redemption. Sin is traced back to the flesh and to the natural man. According to Rom. 8:19-22 perishable, degenerate creation looks for deliverance from transitoriness and for the revelation of the sons of God. As the apostle fervently longed for freedom from the body of death (Rom. 7:24), so also redemption is for him deliverance from aiv e'VeCrd, (Gal. 1:4). This leaning toward a "physical" and cosmic extension of redemption is an approach to Hellenistic conceptions. Paul's representa- tion of the believer as living and suffering in Christ, as crucified, buried, and raised with him, recalls the similar way in which the Hellenistic mystery-religions relate the believer to the dead and risen god (Attis, Osiris, Adonis). Thus Paul actually appears to be indebted to Hellenistic mysticism for certain suggestions. As Plato used Orphism, so Paul appropriated forms of expression for his faith from the mysticism of the world to which he preached the gospel.

The relationship of Christianity to Hellenism appears closer in the Ephesian letter. Here Christ is the supreme power of the entire spirit-world, exalting believers above the bondage of the inferior spirits into his upper kingdom (1: 18-22). Christians must struggle with these spirits, among whom the sKoopoipdrope6 (astral spirits) are named. In like manner from the second century on Christ is more frequently extolled as a deliverer from the power of fate.' When Ignatius regards Christ's work as the communication of ryv^oaR and &0c9apria, and the Eucharist as food of immortality, he, like the author of the Fourth Gospel, shows the influence of Greek mysticism. Irenaeus' realistic doctrine of redemption also has, in common with Greek mysticism, the fundamental notions of deification, abolition of death, imperishability, and gnosis.

 

[joelr]

to all,
the ordinal Last, who died on the cross, a NATURAL DEATH, is the "LORD" God almighty of the OT in an ECHAD of ONE PERSON. no other culture, or religion makes this claim. for OT WRITTING points to a NT covenant that is EVERLASTING, meaning its binding, and cannot be broken by either party. so where is there evidence in any kind of writing that a NT of one's repentances and baptism is required for ETERNAL LIFE in any culture, or nation religion? many say some culture writings parallels the bible, if so, why
not parallel it with a BINDING NT? if there is please post it.

Case in point. the Forsaking of God the Ordinal Last on the Cross, that allowed the HOLY SPIRIT to indwells us in "POWER". was not this foretold of the Abraham and Issaic story? the RAM that was sacrificed instead of Abraham .... "ONLY" Son. so why a Ram? was not its "horns" caught in a thicket. dose not "horns" figuratively represent "POWER?"

by this forsaking on the cross released the full "POWER" of God in human Form.

do we not today have the FULL POWER of God in us today, via the Holy Spirit?

so, do any culture, or nation religion make this claim?

101G.

The Relationship between Hellenistic Mystery Religions and Early Christianity:

A Case Study using Baptism and Eucharist
Jennifer Uzzell
February 2009

Baptism has been widely compared with initiation into the Mystery cults. In many of the Mysteries purification through ritual bathing was required as a prerequisite for initiation.

It is interesting to note that the early Christian writer Tertullian (c. 160-225CE) would not have agreed with this appraisal. Not only did he believe that certain of the Mysteries practiced baptism, but also that they did so in hope of attaining forgiveness of sins and a new birth. This was so striking a similarity that it clearly demanded some form of explanation. Not surprisingly, demonic imitation was the culprit.

Dying/rising demigods

In Pagan Hellenistic and Near Eastern thought, the motif of a “Dying and Rising God” existed for millennia before Christ and there had been stories of divine beings questing into the underworld and returning transformed in some way.
-The idea that a human could become one with God and share in his “risen” life is even more inconceivable. It is difficult to see how these ideas in particular could have entered the mind set of early Christians had they not, at the very least, been drawing on the ideas and symbols of the Pagan religions around them. The ignoble death of Jesus, executed as a common criminal, was a source of acute embarrassment to early Christianity which Celsus is quick to exploit.

Were he a god he should not have died, if only in order to convince others for good and all that he was no liar; but die he did-not only that but dies a death that can hardly be accounted an example to good men.



-It is interesting that the term which Paul uses to describe the sufferings of Christ, παθηματα, is also that which, according to Firmicus Maternus, was used in the rites of Osiris to describe the suffering of that deity which also leads to salvation, “Be of good cheer, neophytes, seeing that the god is saved, for we also, after our toils, shall find salvation.



Eucharist.

-Perhaps the clearest point of contact between the Mysteries and Christian Eucharist, and one of which the Church Fathers were painfully conscious, lay in a sacramental meal of bread or cakes and wine mixed with water in which initiates to the cult of Mithras participated.

They seek salvation from the debased material world through a spiritual ascent through the spheres. Mithras was expected to return to earth to lead his followers in a final cataclysmic battle between good and evil.

-The Mithraic sacramental meal almost certainly predates Christianity and cannot, therefore, be contingent upon it.

-It seems likely that there was dialogue, friendly or otherwise, between the groups which led to ideological growth and development in both; with Christianity increasingly appropriating the language and ritual of the Cults in what it eventually came to refer to as the μυστηριον (mystery) of the Eucharist.



It is beyond doubt that substantial similarities exist between the rituals of baptism and Eucharist and the various sacral meals and initiations practised within the Mystery religions. These similarities extend beyond the forms of the rituals themselves into the purpose, symbolism and function of the rituals.

Pagan commentators such as Celsus and Lucian also clearly regarded Christianity as one of the Mysteries; with Lucian making use of Mystery terminology referring to Christianity as a καινη τελετε (literally a ‘new initiation’).



-We know from Celsus that the gospels did not emerge fully formed but were constantly edited and redacted to suppress heresies such as docetism as they emerged and it seems reasonable that they would deal also with challenges and issues raised by the Mysteries. Firmicus Maternus, for example, is aware that both Jesus and Mithras are described using the images of light and bride groom and that this should happen purely by coincidence seems about as probable as Firmicus’ now familiar plea of demonic imitation. Paul’s adoption of the “dying and rising” understanding of baptism may not be universal but is certainly early and influential. There are numerous other examples from the gospels and from the Pauline Corpus which serve to demonstrate that the authors were operating in an intellectual climate coloured by the Mysteries and that they were responding to it.

-It appears then that the Mysteries asserted an influence over Christianity from the very earliest days and were a part of its development and evolution rather than being “tacked on” at a later date. There was never a “pure” form of Christianity which was later “corrupted” by the language and ritual of the Mystery Cults as Christianity was assimilated by the Greek world; rather Christianity grew up in a world where the language and motifs we associate with the Mysteries were a common intellectual currency. There is no reason to suppose that they did not form an integral part of Christianity from the very beginning despite its Jewish heritage. The two “sources” are not, as has often been supposed, mutually exclusive.

At this distance, and with the limited evidence available to us, it is impossible to reconstruct with any certainty the complex web of relationships and dependencies which undoubtedly existed between Christianity and the Mysteries. That they influenced each other is certain but exactly how and when is not.

 

[101G]

Because someone writes a story doesn't make it true. No matter how many times it mentions ETERNAL LIFE or whatever else you capitalize.

I, 101G capitalize? lol, lol, lol, Oh dear....

But the basic ideas are not new at all. Christianity is a Jewish version of Greek myths already practiced at the time.

second ERROR of the DAY.

Yes savior deities died fighting evil for their followers, before Jesus.

THIRD ERROR of the Day. the Lord Jesus is the "ONLY " TRUE and LIVING deity ever who is SAVIOUR. and side NOTE: he won...... (smile) ... YIKES!

Either way even if Jesus was the first, that doesn't make it true. Lord of the Rings was very new takes on mythology. It's not true.

Fourth ERROR of the day, Jesus is the FIRST, and he's no myth. understand 101G careless about any mythology, you can leave that in the garage, no better still in the garbage just where mythology is to be

Christian and Hellenistic ideas of redemption cannot be sharply separated.....

Fifth ERROR of the Day, God's Redemptions has nothing with any man made doctrine......

The deity's resurrection from the dead gives to the initiates, who see their own destiny prefigured in his adventures, hope of a life after death…. the soul, conscious of its divine origin, strives for redemption from its foreign and unrelated companion, the body. It seeks deliverance from things sinful, material, and mortal. But the fundamental motive in these various representations is the same; it is longing for elevation above the earthly world and its ruling powers, i.e., for deification. The end of redemption is a life of eternal blessedness. The redeemer is the deity to whose service one devotes his whole life in order to obtain his help and favor.

personal opinion? or as with the rest of your post, who told you that lie?

it's just amazing, people will do anything for a for a klondike bar

101G.

 

[101G]

The Relationship between Hellenistic Mystery Religions and Early Christianity:

Fifth ERROR of the Day. Mystery Religions? 101G careless about.

Baptism has been widely compared with initiation into the Mystery cults. In many of the Mysteries purification through ritual bathing was required as a prerequisite for initiation.

Sixth ERROR of the Day. again 101G can careless about any cults or and any Mysteries purification, or bathing rituals, so please don't let it be a seventh ERROR.

At this distance, and with the limited evidence available to us, it is impossible to reconstruct with any certainty the complex web of relationships and dependencies which undoubtedly existed between Christianity and the Mysteries. That they influenced each other is certain but exactly how and when is not.

101G tried to give the benefit of the doubt in the rest of your post, your conclusion made that impossible.
so, ERROR #7 of the Day.

now if you want to discuss, JESUS, who as the Ordinal First and Last according to the Bible as CREATOR and MAKER of ALL THINGS, and as REDEEMER, and SAVIOUR of all things, then 101G is Game.

else all that nonsense of mythology and mystery religions, you can take and squawk about them on facebook, and twitter,

your choice,

101G

 

[joelr]

I, 101G capitalize? lol, lol, lol, Oh dear..../

Not really a response or comment?

second ERROR of the DAY./

calling something an "error" isn't a response. Unless "I know you are but what am I" is something you find to be a good response.

present evidence. I can.

THIRD ERROR of the Day. the Lord Jesus is the "ONLY " TRUE and LIVING deity ever who is SAVIOUR. and side NOTE: he won...... (smile) ... YIKES!/

Yes Jesus is another savior deity in a story. Believed by critical historians to be a myth. So what is your evidence?

Fourth ERROR of the day, Jesus is the FIRST, and he's no myth. understand 101G careless about any mythology, you can leave that in the garage, no better still in the garbage just where mythology is to be/

So your evidence that Jesus isn't a myth is literally saying ...."he's no myth"..........? Wow, good rhetoric. Did you know this is a debate forum and not Instagram posts?

Fifth ERROR of the Day, God's Redemptions has nothing with any man made doctrine....../

Wow it's almost like a pattern or something?

personal opinion? or as with the rest of your post, who told you that lie?

it's just amazing, people will do anything for a for a klondike bar

101G.

This is mainstream scholarship opinion. I said that , you changed it to personal opinion, which is strange. And you haven't demonstrated any of these known facts are lies.

As I stated it's from a journal paper -
Hellenistic Ideas of Salvation in the Light of Ancient Anthropology Author(s): Paul Wendland

Source: The American Journal of Theology , Jul., 1913, Vol. 17, No. 3 (Jul., 1913), pp. 345-351

Published by: The University of Chicago Press Stable URL: Hellenistic Ideas of Salvation in the Light of Ancient Anthropology on JSTOR



important points:

-Christian and Hellenistic ideas of redemption cannot be sharply separated.

-The deity's resurrection from the dead gives to the initiates, who see their own destiny prefigured in his adventures, hope of a life after death.


-The consciousness of estranecment between man and God, and a longing to bridge this chasm, are fundamental to all religions of redemption. In the development of antiquity from the sixth century B.c. on, this type of thought, for which the way is already pared in the older elements of popular faith, confronts us a definite and vigorously increasing religious movement. Reformers, prophets, and puritans propagate a profounder piety, which often mystic in character. The ecstatic Dionysus religion becomes the most important factor in this development. In this religion t common people, the poor and the needy, directly attain a more profound and personal relation to the deity. The believer loses his individual consciousness in enthusiasm and receives the divinity into himself. In moments of orgiastic ecstasy he experiences the ultimate goal of his existence, abiding fellowship with the god, who, as redeemer and savior will free him through death from the finiteness, the suffering, and the exigencies of the earthly life. Orphism sets forth this religious experience in a mystic theology which exerts a strong influence upon Pindar and Empedocles, for example, and which suggested to Plato his magnificent treatise on the dest of the soul.

- According to Posidonius the soul has a heavenly origin. It is an offshoot from the fiery breath of God held captive in the prison-house of the body through birth into the earthly world, but destined for return to its higher home. Only he who in life preserves the divine part from defilement will ascend after death above the lower spheres and rise to the divine source. Our reverence for the starry heaven above us and for the wonders of the cosmos proves the human soul's relation to the heavenly world, and this mystical consciousness of likeness with the divine begets an other-worldly ideal of life.

-From the second century A.D. on we possess rich source materials regarding the mystery cults and the profusion of new religious developments which grow out of the syncretism of the time. These sources acquaint us with the prevailing religious tendencies of antiquity in its declining period. Purification and rebirth, mystical union of the believer with the deity and the hope of bliss in the future world, revelation and charismatic endowment which essentially constitute redemption-these are the motives dominating the rites, sacraments, faith, and teaching of this syncretism. As enjoined in the liturgy of the Phrygian mysteries.

-The deity's resurrection from the dead gives to the initiates, who see their own destiny prefigured in his adventures, hope of a life after death…. the soul, conscious of its divine origin, strives for redemption from its foreign and unrelated companion, the body. It seeks deliverance from things sinful, material, and mortal. But the fundamental motive in these various representations is the same; it is longing for elevation above the earthly world and its ruling powers, i.e., for deification. The end of redemption is a life of eternal blessedness. The redeemer is the deity to whose service one devotes his whole life in order to obtain his help and favor.

-But notions and expressions akin to Hellenistic mysticism are already present in, the Pauline doctrine of redemption. Sin is traced back to the flesh and to the natural man. According to Rom. 8:19-22 perishable, degenerate creation looks for deliverance from transitoriness and for the revelation of the sons of God. As the apostle fervently longed for freedom from the body of death (Rom. 7:24), so also redemption is for him deliverance from aiv e'VeCrd, (Gal. 1:4). This leaning toward a "physical" and cosmic extension of redemption is an approach to Hellenistic conceptions. Paul's representa- tion of the believer as living and suffering in Christ, as crucified, buried, and raised with him, recalls the similar way in which the Hellenistic mystery-religions relate the believer to the dead and risen god (Attis, Osiris, Adonis). Thus Paul actually appears to be indebted to Hellenistic mysticism for certain suggestions. As Plato used Orphism, so Paul appropriated forms of expression for his faith from the mysticism of the world to which he preached the gospel.

-The relationship of Christianity to Hellenism appears closer in the Ephesian letter. Here Christ is the supreme power of the entire spirit-world, exalting believers above the bondage of the inferior spirits into his upper kingdom (1: 18-22). Christians must struggle with these spirits, among whom the sKoopoipdrope6 (astral spirits) are named. In like manner from the second century on Christ is more frequently extolled as a deliverer from the power of fate.' When Ignatius regards Christ's work as the communication of ryv^oaR and &0c9apria, and the Eucharist as food of immortality, he, like the author of the Fourth Gospel, shows the influence of Greek mysticism. Irenaeus' realistic doctrine of redemption also has, in common with Greek mysticism, the fundamental notions of deification, abolition of death, imperishability, and gnosis.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[joelr]

Fifth ERROR of the Day. Mystery Religions? 101G careless about.

Yes there is solid evidence Christianity is borrowed mythology from other mystery religions. Saying the word "ERROR" doesn't change the evidence. It just means you can't explain it and have no interest in what is actually true.

Sixth ERROR of the Day. again 101G can careless about any cults or and any Mysteries purification, or bathing rituals, so please don't let it be a seventh ERROR.

Well that is where the gospel writers took their theology from it looks like.

101G tried to give the benefit of the doubt in the rest of your post, your conclusion made that impossible.
so, ERROR #7 of the Day.

As I noted last post, it's from a religion journal that accepts papers from scholars. All of the historical scholarship goes on like this, there is no doubt this is Greek and Persian mythology made inyo a Jewish religion.

now if you want to discuss, JESUS, who as the Ordinal First and Last according to the Bible as CREATOR and MAKER of ALL THINGS, and as REDEEMER, and SAVIOUR of all things, then 101G is Game.

Yes, according to the Bible. And according to other religions another demigod is the creator of all things. If you are content believing a story in a book and want to ignore historical evidence then you seem to have that down.
However, I am discussing Jesus. Historical evidence shows he is a Jewish version of Greek.Persian theology.

else all that nonsense of mythology and mystery religions, you can take and squawk about them on facebook, and twitter,

your choice,

101G

Wow, the attitude continues. I thought we discussed this but I guess humility isn't your thing. It is not my "choice". If you engage me I will point out the historical evidence that is agreed upon across all historical scholarship. HERE. Your 2nd attempt to remove me and send me to Facebook , Twitter is now showing you cannot debate whatsoever and feel the need to bully people and censor material beyond your grasp to argue against.
But since you said that, I'll now say this, on this forum, not on Facebook, not on Twitter, in response to your post:
Your religion is a man-made mythology borrowing ideas from Greek, Persian and Roman religions. The evidence on this is solid and I know no response is coming except a few capital letter words and emojis.

 

[101G]

Not really a response or comment?




calling something an "error" isn't a response. Unless "I know you are but what am I" is something you find to be a good response.

present evidence. I can.



Yes Jesus is another savior deity in a story. Believed by critical historians to be a myth. So what is your evidence?




So your evidence that Jesus isn't a myth is literally saying ...."he's no myth"..........? Wow, good rhetoric. Did you know this is a debate forum and not Instagram posts?



Wow it's almost like a pattern or something?


This is mainstream scholarship opinion. I said that , you changed it to personal opinion, which is strange. And you haven't demonstrated any of these known facts are lies.

As I stated it's from a journal paper -
Hellenistic Ideas of Salvation in the Light of Ancient Anthropology Author(s): Paul Wendland

Source: The American Journal of Theology , Jul., 1913, Vol. 17, No. 3 (Jul., 1913), pp. 345-351

Published by: The University of Chicago Press Stable URL: Hellenistic Ideas of Salvation in the Light of Ancient Anthropology on JSTOR



important points:

-Christian and Hellenistic ideas of redemption cannot be sharply separated.

-The deity's resurrection from the dead gives to the initiates, who see their own destiny prefigured in his adventures, hope of a life after death.


-The consciousness of estranecment between man and God, and a longing to bridge this chasm, are fundamental to all religions of redemption. In the development of antiquity from the sixth century B.c. on, this type of thought, for which the way is already pared in the older elements of popular faith, confronts us a definite and vigorously increasing religious movement. Reformers, prophets, and puritans propagate a profounder piety, which often mystic in character. The ecstatic Dionysus religion becomes the most important factor in this development. In this religion t common people, the poor and the needy, directly attain a more profound and personal relation to the deity. The believer loses his individual consciousness in enthusiasm and receives the divinity into himself. In moments of orgiastic ecstasy he experiences the ultimate goal of his existence, abiding fellowship with the god, who, as redeemer and savior will free him through death from the finiteness, the suffering, and the exigencies of the earthly life. Orphism sets forth this religious experience in a mystic theology which exerts a strong influence upon Pindar and Empedocles, for example, and which suggested to Plato his magnificent treatise on the dest of the soul.

- According to Posidonius the soul has a heavenly origin. It is an offshoot from the fiery breath of God held captive in the prison-house of the body through birth into the earthly world, but destined for return to its higher home. Only he who in life preserves the divine part from defilement will ascend after death above the lower spheres and rise to the divine source. Our reverence for the starry heaven above us and for the wonders of the cosmos proves the human soul's relation to the heavenly world, and this mystical consciousness of likeness with the divine begets an other-worldly ideal of life.

-From the second century A.D. on we possess rich source materials regarding the mystery cults and the profusion of new religious developments which grow out of the syncretism of the time. These sources acquaint us with the prevailing religious tendencies of antiquity in its declining period. Purification and rebirth, mystical union of the believer with the deity and the hope of bliss in the future world, revelation and charismatic endowment which essentially constitute redemption-these are the motives dominating the rites, sacraments, faith, and teaching of this syncretism. As enjoined in the liturgy of the Phrygian mysteries.

-The deity's resurrection from the dead gives to the initiates, who see their own destiny prefigured in his adventures, hope of a life after death…. the soul, conscious of its divine origin, strives for redemption from its foreign and unrelated companion, the body. It seeks deliverance from things sinful, material, and mortal. But the fundamental motive in these various representations is the same; it is longing for elevation above the earthly world and its ruling powers, i.e., for deification. The end of redemption is a life of eternal blessedness. The redeemer is the deity to whose service one devotes his whole life in order to obtain his help and favor.

-But notions and expressions akin to Hellenistic mysticism are already present in, the Pauline doctrine of redemption. Sin is traced back to the flesh and to the natural man. According to Rom. 8:19-22 perishable, degenerate creation looks for deliverance from transitoriness and for the revelation of the sons of God. As the apostle fervently longed for freedom from the body of death (Rom. 7:24), so also redemption is for him deliverance from aiv e'VeCrd, (Gal. 1:4). This leaning toward a "physical" and cosmic extension of redemption is an approach to Hellenistic conceptions. Paul's representa- tion of the believer as living and suffering in Christ, as crucified, buried, and raised with him, recalls the similar way in which the Hellenistic mystery-religions relate the believer to the dead and risen god (Attis, Osiris, Adonis). Thus Paul actually appears to be indebted to Hellenistic mysticism for certain suggestions. As Plato used Orphism, so Paul appropriated forms of expression for his faith from the mysticism of the world to which he preached the gospel.

-The relationship of Christianity to Hellenism appears closer in the Ephesian letter. Here Christ is the supreme power of the entire spirit-world, exalting believers above the bondage of the inferior spirits into his upper kingdom (1: 18-22). Christians must struggle with these spirits, among whom the sKoopoipdrope6 (astral spirits) are named. In like manner from the second century on Christ is more frequently extolled as a deliverer from the power of fate.' When Ignatius regards Christ's work as the communication of ryv^oaR and &0c9apria, and the Eucharist as food of immortality, he, like the author of the Fourth Gospel, shows the influence of Greek mysticism. Irenaeus' realistic doctrine of redemption also has, in common with Greek mysticism, the fundamental notions of deification, abolition of death, imperishability, and gnosis.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
First thanks for the reply, second, you and them are in ERRor, we suggest you and them read post #291 and 292 of the subject "Does the Apostle Paul claim that Jesus Christ, the holy anointed man, is Almighty God?

101G.

 

[101G]

Yes there is solid evidence Christianity is borrowed mythology from other mystery religions. Saying the word "ERROR" doesn't change the evidence. It just means you can't explain it and have no interest in what is actually true.


Well that is where the gospel writers took their theology from it looks like.



As I noted last post, it's from a religion journal that accepts papers from scholars. All of the historical scholarship goes on like this, there is no doubt this is Greek and Persian mythology made inyo a Jewish religion.



Yes, according to the Bible. And according to other religions another demigod is the creator of all things. If you are content believing a story in a book and want to ignore historical evidence then you seem to have that down.
However, I am discussing Jesus. Historical evidence shows he is a Jewish version of Greek.Persian theology.




Wow, the attitude continues. I thought we discussed this but I guess humility isn't your thing. It is not my "choice". If you engage me I will point out the historical evidence that is agreed upon across all historical scholarship. HERE. Your 2nd attempt to remove me and send me to Facebook , Twitter is now showing you cannot debate whatsoever and feel the need to bully people and censor material beyond your grasp to argue against.
But since you said that, I'll now say this, on this forum, not on Facebook, not on Twitter, in response to your post:
Your religion is a man-made mythology borrowing ideas from Greek, Persian and Roman religions. The evidence on this is solid and I know no response is coming except a few capital letter words and emojis.

thanks for the reply, second. see my reply from kast post

101G.

 

[joelr]

First thanks for the reply, second, you and them are in ERRor, we suggest you and them read post #291 and 292 of the subject "Does the Apostle Paul claim that Jesus Christ, the holy anointed man, is Almighty God?

101G.

Paul is a man. A man who claims to see a ghost Jesus. You need evidence to demonstrate this highly unlikely story is true.
You are free to believe claims people make about visions of spirits but just like I don't buy Muhammads story about seeing an angel and Joe Smith about seeing another angel, I don't buy any of those tales.
No person should without sufficient evidence. "Because he said so" isn't sufficient evidence.

 

[joelr]

thanks for the reply, second. see my reply from kast post

101G.

No, you have to explain why Christian theology isn't just a re-working of Helenism and Persian myth. It sure looks that way.
If your answer is "because a book says something" then you have failed to produce a reasonable response.

 

[101G]

aul is a man. A man who claims to see a ghost Jesus.

no claim, did see the Lord Jesus in Spirit form.

You need evidence to demonstrate this highly unlikely story is true.

why?

You are free to believe claims people make about visions of spirits but just like I don't buy Muhammads story about seeing an angel and Joe Smith about seeing another angel, I don't buy any of those tales.

do you see the stars in the heavens? what is your evidence that you have seen the stares?

No person should without sufficient evidence. "Because he said so" isn't sufficient evidence.

so, answer the question above with evidence.

101G.

 

[101G]

No, you have to explain why Christian theology isn't just a re-working of Helenism and Persian myth. It sure looks that way.
If your answer is "because a book says something" then you have failed to produce a reasonable response.

what law demands that 101G have to explain anything?

101G.

 

[rational experiences]

A human man the theist for all human sciences quotes.

I Tried to humanise science as just human and not sexuality genesis gene types owning penis vagina.

Messed with our heads by claiming O a circle was a number. Lied.

No circle existed is his other thought anywhere.

Ignored a theist is a man liar a pretend man god a human and not a man. The theist term destroyer mind.

How humans sexuality is now mind disturbed as a non ability to use conscious self genetalia identity.

The medical healers science assessment wasn't science. It was a review of science. Why no man can realise biblical interpretations.

Science as a man's choice named as life's destroyer. As man wanted God destroyed is very basic advice.

He pretends he invented God himself then he destroys what he says was God. O by circle that never existed.

As pressure he says hold the body not a circle.

So one man themed gods sciences as all over the highest man known aware created present substances.

Life's gifts of God present are all one self body types.

Body presence all ones are substances by ordinal numbers as lots of one types of bodies.

So the all became Al...chemical.

How AI emerged out of the all as against the all.

Reason why.

No sun UFO cross was first.

Earth owned natural light. Gods clear immaculate gas body burning.... yet the dust released free energy in space fuel was maintained by vacuum void....to not burn up all our heavens gases.

Star mass extra dust not owned by earths space laws natural light.

Knew men.

So to depict how a man by agreed men became science mind possessed. Is an analogy of what science had caused as sciences end was the UFO cross.

As just a small dust mass burning unnaturally as the small amount he's aware of by just his mind as immaculate is in evening sky. Now seen as lights.

Colours. Gas burning effects.

So man said even changed to eve is man's Sacrificed life mind body now as the scientist man. His lack of consciousness.

The father type who destroyed life biology mind states.

As he says man..small life body owner in life is by light as small amount fuel mass burning as light in immaculate.

I came from UFO is now man only science mind.

His aware healer medical brother said it now possesses your thoughts falsely.

It's causes changed humans mind as you tried to identify a human without owning genetalia and were lying.

And you claim you own the UFO as a man.

Wise men healer said daylight sits in vacuum void it does not cross into gods body mass.

You live survive in an alight immaculate mass only not sacrificed at all. How he cons himself now...falsely idealising the immaculate is sacrificed by science terms...his.

The sun once Sacrificed it owns light once.

He already is possessed by his terms a false mother eve.

Just as taught man did it to himself.

Man made one third stars fall to earth for breaking stones law held fused laws cold and unmoving in space. Some hit earth some miss.

As only a sun had shifted it's mass into planetary orbits.

His lying con. The sun shifted a cold earth to orbit ark. Spirit release. Light now moved.

The star mass he caused to hit earth brought a new star ark. Light remains.

Isn't natural earths own history.

As moon stopped it's travel it proved stone was frozen twice held by space. As moon planetoids were attacking blowing apart planets.

UFO ark is not frozen anymore.

How the mind of science of man became possessed.

 

[101G]

The Diversity or the Oneness of God in the ECHAD of being the EQUAL SHARE as a single person in TIME PLACE, Order or RANK.

God is "ONE" as a EQUAL SHARE of his OWN-SELF.

Scriptural Example. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
One: H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

the source of this definition, Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments

Now this, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
BEGINNING: H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218

the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
a, alike, alone, altogether, and, anything, apiece, a certain
A numeral from 'achad; properly, united, i.e. One; or (as an ordinal) first -- a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together,

now the term God,
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

the plural of H233,
H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m.
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.
Root(s): H410

Notice H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') is "OF" H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah).

there is the REVELATION, "of" and not "from" which destroys any unity of two separate or more, or any separation of "persons".

101G.

 

[joelr]

no claim, did see the Lord Jesus in Spirit form.

based on what evidence? A story is just a claim. Do you believe in Big Foot, Roswell aliens and every story ever?

why?

Because people enjoy embellishing tales. Especially when religion is involved. There are 36 other Christian gospels known, not used in the canon, considered heretical (lies). There are 7 Epistles considered to be forgeries (lies), there is countless Apocrypha in Christianity considered heretical like the Jesus child stories where he uses his powers to scare adults. Considered lies.
Without further evidence any supernatural claim should not be believed.

do you see the stars in the heavens? what is your evidence that you have seen the stares?

so, answer the question above with evidence.

101G.

It's simple. I make a claim that I saw stars in the sky. Other people are free to go out and look in the sky to check for stars. You can also go out and look for stars.
You can take a photo and video and send them to me. I can take a photo and video. We can also ask if anyone doesn't see stars in the sky and investigate these situations. We can see there is photographs from amateur and professional astronomers. We can see there is a field of science who studies these stars.
Then we can determine the evidence is reasonable to believe stars are real, or our current understanding of stars is true.

With Jesus you have one story. The other gospels used Mark as a source and there is evidence Mark used Paul. There is also excellent evidence dying rising savior deities were happening in nearby religions already established, so now we have a source and motive (it was very popular for obvious reasons). This story is a Jewish version of the Greek/Persian savior demigod, evidence suggests.

No other evidence exists. No historian of the day knows anything except that there were people who followed the gospel stories.

I'm sure you do not believe the evidence for stars is as good as evidence for Krishna or other savior demigods like Osirus. Krishna, Osirus and Jesus all have equal evidence for being demigods.

 

[joelr]

what law demands that 101G have to explain anything?

101G.

No law. It's a debtae forum. Coming to a debate forum and making a claim would mean you then back it up. Why would you go to a debate forum then question the fact that you are expected to actually debate? Did you think you would just make claims and people would be like "wow, tell us more claims without evidence"........?
Do you know what "debate" means?