Jesus in Heaven is not God

[Soapy]

Its your own lack of understanding. The hope was that the Jews would receive the long anticipated Son of God, but they rejected his Gospel and killed the Son! It was the will of the devil that the Son be rejected and killed NOT the Father!

If the Israelites would have received the Son and the original Gospel then they would be preaching it today from the Temple mount and the Son would have disposed of his mortal flesh in a manner of his own choosing and returned to his rightful place in heaven.

No!

God DESIRED the sacrificial death of a sinless, righteous, God-Fearing, unblemished MAN to atone for the sin of Adam.

Jesus knew that he was that SACRIFICIAL LAMB who must meekly carry out that task. Pontius Pilate was go smacked that Jesus did not try to save himself - He could have given Jesus a pardon and sent him back to the Jews. Jesus kept his mouth shut like an innocent lamb.

What do you think the regular sacrifices were about - even a pure unblemished animal could not atone for the sun but served only as a reminder:

• “Day after day every [temple] priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Jesus Christ] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,” (Hebrews 10:11-12)

If the Israelites would have received the Son and the original Gospel then they would be preaching it today from the Temple mount and the Son would have disposed of his mortal flesh in a manner of his own choosing and returned to his rightful place in heaven.

Then the prophesies would be not fulfilled.
God exchanged Jacob (synonymous here with Jesus Christ) for a ram.

Perhaps if the Jews had accepted Jesus, as Abraham (synonymous here with the nation of Jews) accepted the command of God, THEN PERHAPS God might have provided another sacrificial animal in the same manner.

BUT THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.

And, It is not up to the sacrificial lamb to decide how his body is sacrificed (Ha ha ha… Like in an episode of HitchHikers Guide To The Galaxy: Restaurant at the end of the universe, where a cow-like animal tells the diners which part of his body was best for eating!!)

 

[Colt]

No!

God DESIRED the sacrificial death of a sinless, righteous, God-Fearing, unblemished MAN to atone got the sin of Adam.

Jesus knew that he was that SACRIFICIAL LAMB who must meekly carry out that task. Pontius Pilate was go smacked that Jesus did not try to save himself - He could have given Jesus a pardon and sent him back to the Jews. Jesus kept his mouth shut like an innocent lamb.

What do you think the yearly sacrifices were about - even a pure unblemished animal could not atone for the sun but served only as a reminder:

Jesus never taught that he was a sacrificial lamb!

Blood sacrifices were adopted by the Israelites from Pagan religions.

The prophets tried to move Judaism away from sacrificing animals to please God.

Children of the Devil!

39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.

43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

Rejecting the message of Jesus and killing the Son of God was the will of the Devil! Claiming it was Gods will that his Son be killied so he could then see his blood and forgive you is obsurd and frankly selfish!

 

[Soapy]

Jesus never taught that he was a sacrificial lamb!

Blood sacrifices were adopted by the Israelites from Pagan religions.

The prophets tried to move Judaism away from sacrificing animals to please God.

Children of the Devil!

39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”

42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.

43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

Rejecting the message of Jesus and killing the Son of God was the will of the Devil! Claiming it was Gods will that his Son be killied so he could then see his blood and forgive you is obsurd and frankly selfish!

• “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.” (Mark 8:31)
• Jesus: “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.” (John 12:26)
• “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.” (John 12:32-33)

 

[Colt]

• “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.” (Mark 8:31)
• Jesus: “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.” (John 12:26)
• “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.” (John 12:32-33)

Nowhere in there does Jesus say that Gods forgiveness was conditional to Jesus dying! Jesus and the Father took the tragedy of rejection and turned it into a positive. The Son turned the other check, allowed his body to die a terrible death but then returned and rewarded the faith of believers.

Jesus didn't die for the cause of sin! Jesus lived for the cause of salvation! He revealed the loving and forgiving Father to all who heard his gospel preaching.

 

[Soapy]

Nowhere in there does Jesus say that Gods forgiveness was conditional to Jesus dying! Jesus and the Father took the tragedy of rejection and turned it into a positive. The Son turned the other check, allowed his body to die a terrible death but then returned and rewarded the faith of believers.

Jesus didn't die for the cause of sin! Jesus lived for the cause of salvation! He revealed the loving and forgiving Father to all who heard his gospel preaching.

And how was Jesus’ living meant to provide salvation from the sin of Adam: the sin that condemned all mankind to die irrespective of their lack of sin status?

And why then didn’t Jesus just answer to Pontius Pilate when Pilate tried to save him?

 

[Colt]

And how was Jesus’ living meant to provide salvation from the sin of Adam: the sin that condemned all mankind to die irrespective of their lack of sin status?

And why then didn’t Jesus just answer to Pontius Pilate when Pilate tried to save him?

We don't need salvation from Adams sin, Adam needed to address his own sin. Salvation is by faith and loyalty to the Father. Forgives is by repenting and receiving it which is real salvation. Atonement is theoretical.

My friend, Jesus wasn't on trial before Pilate, Pilate was on trial before Jesus!

 

[101G]

You need to go study the truth. This verse states that death comes to all mankind IRRESPECTIVE of their pious status… even those who do not sin will be destroyed in the spirit. The purpose of the sinless unblemished Messiah dying is to offset this death of all mankind:

• One sinless man dying for the salvation of all mankind

your original statement was, "Someone who is ‘in the world’ is one who is subject to sin and unrighteousness."
now that you changed it, did Melchisedec die?

101G.

 

[Soapy]

We don't need salvation from Adams sin, Adam needed to address his own sin. Salvation is by faith and loyalty to the Father. Forgives is by repenting and receiving it which is real salvation. Atonement is theoretical.

My friend, Jesus wasn't on trial before Pilate, Pilate was on trial before Jesus!

Salvation from the sin of Adam was one of the reasons Jesus came to be.

God demanded a pure blood sacrifice from a sinless righteous man - and Jesus fulfilled that role perfectly.

 

[Muffled]

It’s often said by Trinitarians that Jesus was a man on earth but resumed being God when he was raised up to Heaven. In fact the saying is that Jesus went BACK to being in Heaven.

Well, there are no claims by Jesus, himself, that he came from Heaven, only that he was ‘Going to the Father’, which is not a ‘RETURNING’.

Moreover, any suggestion that Jesus ‘RESUMED’ being God on being raised up to Heaven is debunked by the fact that ‘GOD’ is still greater than he:

• “In the sight of God, who gives life to everything (and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession) I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. ” (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

Jesus Christ’s RETURN TO EARTH… will be when GOD decides it’s the right time.

Recall that Jesus, himself, said, when asked about his return:

• “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36)

which proves the Father as being ‘God’, as the two verses selections align perfectly.

In addition, we know that ‘No one has seen the God at any time’ - which tallies with the last part of the previous quoted verse: 1 Tim 6:16, ‘… whom no one has seen or can see’.

Can anyone, in sincere honesty and righteousness, still claim that Jesus is ‘God’?

Yes.

 

[Eli G]

...

Well, there are no claims by Jesus, himself, that he came from Heaven, only that he was ‘Going to the Father’, which is not a ‘RETURNING’.

...

Mmmmh. Are you sure?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)
... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.
... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

About this topic, this passage is interesting:
Rev. 14:14 Then I saw, and look! a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary, calling with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: “Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 And the one seated on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped.
So, YES, it is God who decides the moment for His purpose to be fulfilled ... not Jesus.
Inhabitants of heaven do not consider Jesus as their God:
Rev. 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Even before 14:14-16 at Revelation 3:12, 21 we find the resurrected ascended-to heaven Jesus still sitting at God's right hand so to speak.
Resurrected-to-heaven Jesus presented himself before the person of God at Hebrews 9:24.
So, heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Death came specifically to Adam who was a Son of God. Adam and Eve were immortal until they sinned. But death or translation was already normal for mankind. Sin is a knowing choice, not an inheritance! The doctrine of original sin is false. The speculation that Jesus died as a sin sacrifice is Pagan speculation. Jesus taught salvation through faith.

I'd like to take the liberty to say Adam and Eve were 'mortal' even before they sinned.
Their everlasting life on Earth depended on obedience - Gen. 2:17.
Even the angelic heavenly sons of God are mortals, just mortals living in Heaven instead of Earth.
If those fallen angels were immortal then Jesus would not be able to destroy angelic Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
ALL who are wicked ( heavenly and earthly ) will be destroyed forever - Isaiah 11:3-4; Psalms 37:38; 92:7; 104:35

 

[Eli G]

Before Jesus left earth, he told his disciples that he was going to ask his Father on their behalf. He even said a prayer that is recorded where he asks Jehovah to protect them, because he was no longer going to be by their side here.

John 17:11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.
20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

 

[Colt]

I'd like to take the liberty to say Adam and Eve were 'mortal' even before they sinned.
Their everlasting life on Earth depended on obedience - Gen. 2:17.
Even the angelic heavenly sons of God are mortals, just mortals living in Heaven instead of Earth.
If those fallen angels were immortal then Jesus would not be able to destroy angelic Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B
ALL who are wicked ( heavenly and earthly ) will be destroyed forever - Isaiah 11:3-4; Psalms 37:38; 92:7; 104:35

Adam and Eve came from heaven and were given human bodies. Having duel circulatory systems they were able to partake of the special “tree of life” and live on indefinitely, at least up until the sin when they lost the use of the tree. They then aged like humans age.

Death or translation is normal for mortals. IMOP

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..................do you think that the spirit that leaves the body at the moment of death is aware of its environment and interacts with it in a consciously way?

I find a genderless "IT" does Not interact in a conscious way because "it" is a neuter - Ecclesiastes 12:7 B (it)
One's spirit ' has No gender but more as an energy.
Once a light bulb dies out it does not go anywhere and remains a neuter 'it'.
A high school pep rally is designed to create ' school spirit ' which is Not a person but designed to create energy.
Even a high-spirited horse is an energetic horse but not having a separate spirit.
So, at the moment of death the spirit that leaves the body (Ecc. 12:7 B) is Not a spirit person but an "it".
Like a foreclosed house it does Not move or go anywhere but it remains in the hands of the owner.
Thus, any future for the house now lies in the owner's hands.
Any coming future life for the dead now lies in Jesus' hands - John 6:40,44; Acts 24:15

 

[Eli G]

Well said.

In the Scriptures we read that at the moment of expiring his last breath, Jesus said to God: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46). If that was any other invisible person going to heavens then the account is just nonsenses, cause his body stoped functioning, his spirit was in God's hands, and his so-called "soul" was in Sheol (Acts 2:31). So, how many Jesuses would be that? 3 jesuses?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Adam and Eve came from heaven and were given human bodies. Having duel circulatory systems they were able to partake of the special “tree of life” and live on indefinitely, at least up until the sin when they lost the use of the tree. They then aged like humans age.
Death or translation is normal for mortals. IMOP

I find in the Bible that Adam was formed or fashioned from the already existing dust of the ground - Gen. 2:7
I find in the Bible that Eve came from Adam's rib and Not from heaven.
Adam and Eve lost the 'tree of life ' for us, and Jesus came so we could discover (re-discover) that coming 'tree of life' - see Rev. 22:2 ; Ezekiel 47:12
If death was normal we would welcome death and Not seek medical help.
Death is Not a friend but our "enemy" according to 1st Corinthians 15:26.
If earthly death was normal then Jesus would Not tell us that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Matt. 5:5 from Psalm 37:9-11; Psalm 22:26

 

[wellwisher]

Why is the call to be followers of ‘Christ’ (The anointed one!) and not followers of ‘God’ (the Anointer)?

John 6-46: “No man has seen The Father, except he who is from God; he himself sees The Father.” ... The only one who has seen the Father is the one who has come from him; Son.

I would assume this means there is a chain of command, with Jesus seeing/reporting to God and humans by having seen Jesus, reporting to Jesus, who can then report to God. An underling in a big company does not just walk in on the CEO, but reports to his immediate supervisor, who then can report up the chain of command.

Another practical reason one can not report directly to God, is because God created the heaven and earth in six days and on the seventh day, God rested; Divine Sabbath rest. During the earth Sabbath, which is an image of the Divine Sabbath Day, ones is not supposed to conduct business but pray and rest with family. This would explain why only the Son saw God; he was family and it was still the Divine Sabbath.

God rested on the seventh day. There is nowhere in the New and Old Testament that says how long God rested or whether he is still resting. It says one day, but one heaven day may not be one earth day. The best clue that God rested during both the Old Testament and New Testament, is the after epic scale creation of the first 6 days; create the universe, sun, planets, life, animals, humans, etc., there is nothing as epic in the entire Bible, until late Revelations. Moses did some impressive miracles, but he did not create stuff like oceans or new planet. He was more about breaking things. But at the end of the Revelations, the old heavens and earth disappear, and God is back in business, making a new heavens and earth, from scratch.

Revelation 21: Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bridebeautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

This sort of make me thinks of a second Divine Sabbath, with God surrounded by the children of God.

 

[Colt]

I find in the Bible that Adam was formed or fashioned from the already existing dust of the ground - Gen. 2:7
I find in the Bible that Eve came from Adam's rib and Not from heaven.
Adam and Eve lost the 'tree of life ' for us, and Jesus came so we could discover (re-discover) that coming 'tree of life' - see Rev. 22:2 ; Ezekiel 47:12
If death was normal we would welcome death and Not seek medical help.
Death is Not a friend but our "enemy" according to 1st Corinthians 15:26.
If earthly death was normal then Jesus would Not tell us that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Matt. 5:5 from Psalm 37:9-11; Psalm 22:26

If death wasn’t normal then the earth would be quite crowded.

The “Crafty Beast”was already fallen, already evil, already sinful when he approached Eve.

Cain feared people out in the world, God even agreed with him and out a mark on him.

When the Israelites gathered up the fragmented history from Mesopotamian lore they assumed Adam was the first man. We have been digging up the remains of humans that lived hundreds of thousands of years ago.

The Bible is a very recent, inaccurate history.

 

[Soapy]

Mmmmh. Are you sure?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
... 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)
... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.
... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Sorry it’s been done time since you posted.

All the things you mentioned in your post claiming Jesus came from Heaven are untrue scriptures.

They are modifications from the original or inventions (added) to try to claim that Jesus was pre-existent.

The trinitarian translators ‘FORGOT’ to make s claim of Jesus saying that he was ‘RETURNING’ to Heaven. There is not s single claim - not even anecdotal or by prophesy or by the disciples / apostles. Jesus ONLY EVER says that he is ‘GOING’… not ‘RETURNING’.

And, in any case, since Jesus is a man, flesh and bone, who, following his resurrection, was given a spiritual body, he could leave his body and his spirit would still be active and ‘conscious’. You notice, I hope, that Jesus has to ‘Present himself’ to the Father following his resurrection. If he had been in Heaven before then there would be no need to present himself to the Father.

And, you see Jesus being made to sit NEXT TO God, on His right hand. Jesus did not ‘RETURN TO THE PLACE HE WAS BEFORE’ as one verse claims.

I emphasise again, GOD IS SEATED ON HIS THRONE. There is only one throne in Heaven at this time (See the same in the book of Revelation) Jesus is PLACED BY GOD in the SEAT OF HONOUR just as King Saul placed David in the seat of honour which is at the right hand side of the king.

At this point, Trinitarians say that Jesus RESUMED BEING GOD (absenting his humanness) which I am sure you should agree is a nonsense….

(Where do they get these fallacious ideas from?)

Oh, can I ask quickly… are you a subscriber to Jehovah Witness ideology?