Jesus insisted that he had lived in heaven before being born as a human

[Eli G]

In the following dialogue with the Jews, Jesus Christ made it implicit that he had seen Abraham personally.

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

If Jesus' words are considered true, then we should accept that he taught about his pre-existence before he was born as a human being.

 

[Spice]

In the following dialogue with the Jews, Jesus Christ made it implicit that he had seen Abraham personally.

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

If Jesus' words are considered true, then we should accept that he taught about his pre-existence before he was born as a human being.

I found this passage to be supportive of my belief that the spiritual essence that was in the vessel of "Jesus" was once in the vessel of "Melchizedek," King and High Priest of Salem in Abraham's times.

 

[Eli G]

@Spice I posted this thread in Biblical Debates for a reason. I am talking about what the Bible says.
The Bible says nothing about "spiritual essence" or "vessels" so I guess you are in the wrong subform.

 

[Eli G]

In the gospel that John wrote under inspiration around the year 98 AD we find many references to Jesus' statements about his pre-existence as a real and conscious person in heaven before being born as a human being.

John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)

... 6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

... 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

... 17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

 

[Spice]

@Spice I posted this thread in Biblical Debates for a reason. I am talking about what the Bible says.
The Bible says nothing about "spiritual essence" or "vessels" so I guess you are in the wrong subform.

Think if JtB could be Elijah as described in Mark 9, then certainly Jesus could be Melchizedek, especially with the support of the passage you've submitted, along with Jer 1:5, and Heb 5:5,6. So, it is biblical, but perhaps not in your studies or conception. That's fine. It'll be interesting to see how the thread progresses.

 

[Eli G]

Think on these words of Jesus:

John 8:38 I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.” (...) 40 But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

He is saying that he was really at God's side before he was a human. He was talking to him, listening attentively about his mission and how he should fulfill it, what teachings to give to his disciples, etc.

He is saying he was literally with God as His companion before coming into this world.

 

[Jimmy]

Right. He was here before. He’s here now. And he’ll be here again. And again and again and again imo.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the following dialogue with the Jews, Jesus Christ made it implicit that he had seen Abraham personally.

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

If Jesus' words are considered true, then we should accept that he taught about his pre-existence before he was born as a human being.

According to my Baha'i beliefs, the soul of Jesus, which is His person, was pre-existent in the spiritual world (heaven) before the body of Jesus was born in this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Jesus could have seen Abraham in the spiritual world because Abraham died long before Jesus lived on this earth, and when Abraham died the soul of Abraham ascended to the spiritual world, where the soul of Jesus was at that time.

Jesus said that He existed before Abraham was born because the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world long before Abraham was born into this world. I believe that Jesus was with God in the spiritual world, but I don't know if Jesus was in the spiritual world from the beginning.

 

[Eli G]

Jesus said the same many times:

John 7:28 (...) the One who sent me is real, and you do not know him. 29 I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me.

That is why he said that to know Jehovah they really had to listen to him, his envoy, because the relationship between them is personal, not learned from others.

Matt. 11:27 (...) no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.

From those words of Jesus we understand that no human has experienced a personal knowledge of God like the one Jesus had/has.

If Jesus was a man barely baptized and anointed less than three years before, that close and real personal relationship of which he speaks would not have been possible, or could have been equaled by any other human who wished to loyally serve God. But Jesus was the Son of God since he was literally in heaven next to Him.

 

[dybmh]

If Jesus' words are considered true, then we should accept that he taught about his pre-existence before he was born as a human being.

I vote: yes and obviously.

 

[Colt]

In the following dialogue with the Jews, Jesus Christ made it implicit that he had seen Abraham personally.

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

If Jesus' words are considered true, then we should accept that he taught about his pre-existence before he was born as a human being.

Yes, Jesus came down from Heaven and lived the mortal life.

 

[dybmh]

as a real and conscious person

Interesting. A real conscious person? I don't see that in any of the verses which you have brought. The pre-existence is certainly there. The *form* of that existence is not described as a real conscious person.

John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man. (...) 31 The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others. (...)

Here, Jesus is referring to Bnei Adam, the Son-Of-Man. The Son-Of-Man is not described here. All that is written is the yeridah l'ma'an aliyah, the descent for the sake of ascension and it's supremacy over the converse, ascension for the sake of descent. Nothing here indicates the pre-existence is in the form of "a real conscious person".

6:33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” (...) 38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

Again, nothing here is describing a pre-existent "real conscious person". In fact I am asking myself whether an individual lacking any will of their own can be considered "a real conscious person". That is describing an angel, not a real conscious human being.

8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. 24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” (...) 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

Notice, there is no contact, conversation, connection between Abraham and Jesus in this passage. The details that are given are:

1) Jesus precedes Abraham
2) Jesus is from a realm which is distinct and above.

That's all. There is still nothing describing the form in which this pre-existence occured.

17:1 Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, (...) 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Here Jesus is requesting a return of "the glory" from the pre-existent state. Nothing here is describing a "real conscious person" pre-existing.

It's interesting that you've brought *only* verses from the Book of John. Does this mean there is only 1 textual witness testifying to Jesus' pre-existence? And. Are these the best examples that, in theory, support the assertion of Jesus pre-existing as a "real conscious person"?

... his pre-existence as a real and conscious person in heaven before being born as a human being.

Maybe it would be helpful to explain what it means to be a real conscious person while not being born as a human being?

What does that mean? What is a person which is not human?

 

[Eli G]

Interesting. A real conscious person? I don't see that in any of the verses which you have brought. The pre-existence is certainly there. The *form* of that existence is not described as a real conscious person.
...

So, tell us: If with these words Jesus is not talking about a conscious pre-existence, what kind of pre-existence are you talking about?

John 8:38 I speak the things I have seen while with my Father (...) 40 But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.

 

[Soapy]

“…But now you are seeking to kill me, A MAN who has told you the truth that I heard from God.”

Jesus is a MAN who was taught by God.

God was alone before he created the angels and then all the world … and finally, MAN.

Jesus was not pre-existent. The fact that you guys are arguing over what kind of existence / form the fictitious pre-Jesus was supposed to have had… and that nothing exists in scriptures about a pre-existent MAN ‘who came down from Heaven’… shows that there was no such thing.

Jesus says only that he is going ‘TO THE FATHER’… not ‘going BACK TO… ‘.

Jesus was ‘RAISED UP TO HEAVEN’ by GOD. He was sat NEXT TO GOD in the seat of glory which is a privilege given to the closest SERVANT of the king.

And he was GIVEN POWER and AUTHORITY TO RULE for a period of time after which he HANDS BACK the power and authority TO GOD. At no time is Jesus higher nor EQUAL to GOD in all aspects: ‘BUT FOR MY THRONE YOU ARE TO BE GOD!’.

God is the OWNER of the seat of power. He NEVER EVER relinquishes it to anyone - Jesus rules ON HIS OWN SEAT…!

Then Jesus returns to take rulership over what GOD created - and then rules the created world eternally from the ethereal throne of his great ancestor, King David - a HUMAN THRONE for a HUMAN RULER.

• “…thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor 15:57)

 

[dybmh]

So, tell us: If with these words Jesus is not talking about a conscious pre-existence, what kind of pre-existence are you talking about?

Let's look.

John 8:38 I speak the things I have seen while with my Father (...) 40 But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.

In isolation this verse, when I read it, is describing seeing without eyes and hearing without ears. It's describing a dream, or prophecy or vision. It's an inner wholly ( holy ) spiritual consciousness. Not as a physical, "real", person though. I recall the sequence in John 1. The sequence is important, here.

John 1:1​

​

Ἐν ἀρχῇ... ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν ...​

In [the] beginning... the word was with God ...​

​

John 1:14​

​

... καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν.​

.... and the word became flesh and dwelt among us.​

​

These verses indicate a sequence. In the beginning the word was with God, AND THEN, "καὶ", the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Going back to the verse you brought:

​

​

John 8:38​

​

... ἃ ἐγὼ ἑώρακα παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ...​

I speak the things I have seen while with my Father​

John 1:1​

​

Ἐν ἀρχῇ... ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν ...​

In [the] beginning... the word was with God ...​

​

When was Jesus with God? In the beginning. In what form was Jesus at that time ( assuming time exists in that realm )? In the beginning "the word" was with God, not the flesh. That's what is written in the Greek scripture. Therefore, not a "person" in the way it is conventionally considered. There is no flesh "there". ( In quotes because, "there" is out of context when considering an omni-present deity ).

what kind of pre-existence are you talking about?

To be clear, it's not me. I am reading your words and the Greek scripture and reporting what they and you are saying.

The pre-existence which is being described by the verses brought are "with God", "In the beginning", in the form of "the word". It is a pre-existence with-in, and completely possessed by the divine intellect. It is a consciousness with-in the "God-head". It is like the consciousness of a character of a novel, before the author has written the book. It is a word before it has been spoken.

 

[Eli G]

Let's look. (...) when I read it, is describing seeing without eyes and hearing without ears. It's describing a dream, or prophecy or vision. It's an inner wholly ( holy ) spiritual consciousness. Not as a physical, "real", person though.
(...) It is a pre-existence with-in, and completely possessed by the divine intellect. It is a consciousness with-in the "God-head". It is like the consciousness of a character of a novel, before the author has written the book. It is a word before it has been spoken.

That kind of pre-existence you're talking about is very entertaining, but since you have not provided any evidence that it really is as you say, it doesn't seem more than a pretext created by someone's imagination to twist what Jesus Christ said, but not a reality.

Let's continue analyzing what the Bible says.

John 16:
27(...)
ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε __ you for me had affection
καὶ πεπιστεύκατε __ and you have believed
ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ [τοῦ] θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον. __ that I came from the side of God.
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς __ I came from the side of the Father
καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον· __ and have come into the world.
πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον __ Now I am leaving the world
καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα. __ and am going toward the Father.

It doesn't seem like Jesus is referring to something imaginary like you think, since he says that he is going to return to the place where he came from.

If Jesus was non-existent as you say and he says that he will return to the place where he came from, do you think Jesus is saying that he will return to non-existence?

 

[Eli G]

It is very interesting when by studying and knowing in depth all the things that Jesus said, we can better understand what he taught.

Compare the following two cases: in the first case he talks about what he saw before being human at the Father's side, while in the second he mentions the things he will see when he returns to Him.

John 8:38a
ἃ ἐγὼ ἑώρακα __ Things that I've seen
παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ __ by the side of the Father
λαλῶ· __ I speak.

John 5:20
ὁ γὰρ πατὴρ φιλεῖ τὸν υἱὸν __ For the Father has affection for the Son
καὶ πάντα δείκνυσιν αὐτῷ ἃ αὐτὸς ποιεῖ, __ and shows him all the things he himself does,
καὶ μείζονα τούτων δείξει αὐτῷ ἔργα, __ and he will show him works greater than these,
ἵνα ὑμεῖς θαυμάζητε. __ so that you may marvel.

 

[Trailblazer]

If Jesus was non-existent as you say and he says that he will return to the place where he came from, do you think Jesus is saying that he will return to non-existence?

I don't know the Bible very well but didn't Jesus say that He came from the Father and He will return to the Father?

That is what I believe, that Jesus was with the Father in heaven before He was born in this world, and He returned to the Father when He ascended to heaven.

 

[Eli G]

At least two forum members on this topic have attempted to deny that Jesus was a real person in heaven before he was born as a human. It is evident that not all who call themselves "Christians" believe the things that Jesus said about himself.

John 6:38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

Perhaps they are confused because they have not meditated on the fact that the heavens are full of life, beings in spirit form that were created long before human beings on this planet. These beings are sons of God long before Adam when he was created.

Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth? (...) 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

The names of two of them are mentioned in the Bible: Michael and Gabriel. So there is no doubt that all those millions of children of God in heaven each have a personal name and their own identity (2 Chron. 18:18-22; Job 1:6; 2:1; Dan. 7:9,10; Psal. 103:20).

When one has learned that reality, then it is not difficult to understand why Jesus taught that he came from the heavenly realms.

John 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.

 

[Soapy]

I don't know the Bible very well but didn't Jesus say that He came from the Father and He will return to the Father?

That is what I believe, that Jesus was with the Father in heaven before He was born in this world, and He returned to the Father when He ascended to heaven.

So how do you account for the fact that God was alone before He create the angels and then human Beings as sentient, intelligent, spirited beings?

• ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.’ (Gen 1:1)

Does ‘alone’ mean ‘With The Son … alone, by Himself’?

And also, God foreknew the messiah before the creation of the world… does this mean that the Son was pre-existent? Of course not!!

But if it’s suggested, nay, STATED and believed that he was pre-existent … then what if this verse:

• ‘For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love’ (Eph 1:4)

Does that verse STATE that those chosen by God were pre-existent WITH GOD before the creation of the world?

And where does scripture tell us other than in Ephesians 1:4?

Isn’t it simply that a foreknowledge is similar if not exactly like a PROPHESY OF a person, thing, event, or time when something will certainly occur?

Similar to Abraham receiving FOREKNOWLEDGE about one his distance offspring BEING THE MESSIAH… and he was glad to forsee that day when the messiah was to come into fruition?