Jesus is not God

[Trailblazer]

The OP is nonsense! Jesus is God. The burden of proof lies on those who dispute this fact.

The OP is true! Jesus is not God. The burden of proof lies on those who dispute this fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Stop proselitizing Bahaism.

I guess you ran out of arguments so you went for the juggler.

Baha'is believe that God sent Baha'u'llah so we believe God knows who He is.

There I fixed it.
How does that change anything?
If God sent Baha'u'llah, then God sent Baha'u'llah, and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.
You can call Him a false prophet and go on believing what you believe but that won't change anything.


I will be watching for all the Christian posts that don't say "I believe" in front of their beliefs.

Oh, I did not have to look very hard! @jimb did not say I believe that Jesus is God, he stated it as a FACT.

The OP is nonsense! Jesus is God. The burden of proof lies on those who dispute this fact. #2,159

 

[Sargonski]

I

The OP is nonsense! Jesus is God. The burden of proof lies on those who dispute this fact. #2,159

No TB .. assumed premise fallacy --- the burden of proof lies with those claiming that it is fact that Jesus was the God of Abraham .. "The Father" . The fact that you used the term proof .. in of itself tells a story but one step at a time.

Standing against your naked claim ... the claim you have yet to support never mind prove as Fact .. is evidence from the Bible .... in which Jesus himself states/infers the Father is someone other than himself .. "in clear unambiguous terms" - well over 10 times clearly and in context .. such as when he prays to "The Father -- who art in Heaven .. hallowed be thy name which is not Jesus" in the Garden begging his God not to make him go through with the plan .. ultimately deferring to the will of his God .. which turns out to be not the will of Jesus .. so even their will's are not in common .. never mind these being the same person .. and then Jesus crying out that his God has forsaken him .. this God doing not the will of Jesus .. but his will .. "my God my God .. why have you forsaken me" cannot be interpreted as Jesus calling out to himself ... Can it ?! Jesus calling out to himself while hanging on the Cross - does not make it past the giggle test .. the person saying something to the effect of "only a fundamentalist" .. which no serious scholar takes seriously .. .. but you were not going to argue that anyway ... Right !? You don't really believe that Jesus was calling out to himself while hanging on the cross in some kind of masochistic delerium .. forgetting that he is "The Father" ... Right !?

Against the backdrop of just a fraction of the times Jesus claims his God is not he .. let us now have your answer .. . and support for your defacto claim .. proof as opposed to evicence har har .. OK just evidence will do .. letting you out of the ridiculous bar you set ... Proof -- Homer

 

[Trailblazer]

No TB .. assumed premise fallacy --- the burden of proof lies with those claiming that it is fact that Jesus was the God of Abraham .. "The Father" . The fact that you used the term proof .. in of itself tells a story but one step at a time.

Standing against your naked claim ... the claim you have yet to support never mind prove as Fact .. is evidence from the Bible .... in which Jesus himself states/infers the Father is someone other than himself .. "in clear unambiguous terms" - well over 10 times clearly and in context .. such as when he prays to "The Father -- who art in Heaven .. hallowed be thy name which is not Jesus" in the Garden begging his God not to make him go through with the plan .. ultimately deferring to the will of his God .. which turns out to be not the will of Jesus .. so even their will's are not in common .. never mind these being the same person .. and then Jesus crying out that his God has forsaken him .. this God doing not the will of Jesus .. but his will .. "my God my God .. why have you forsaken me" cannot be interpreted as Jesus calling out to himself ... Can it ?! Jesus calling out to himself while hanging on the Cross - does not make it past the giggle test .. the person saying something to the effect of "only a fundamentalist" .. which no serious scholar takes seriously .. .. but you were not going to argue that anyway ... Right !? You don't really believe that Jesus was calling out to himself while hanging on the cross in some kind of masochistic delerium .. forgetting that he is "The Father" ... Right !?

Against the backdrop of just a fraction of the times Jesus claims his God is not he .. let us now have your answer .. . and support for your defacto claim .. proof as opposed to evicence har har .. OK just evidence will do .. letting you out of the ridiculous bar you set ... Proof -- Homer

The OP is nonsense! Jesus is God. The burden of proof lies on those who dispute this fact. #2,159

That was not my claim. It was the claim of @jimb in his post #2,159

I do not believe that Jesus is God, for all the reasons you stated, and many more.

 

[Trailblazer]

Against the backdrop of just a fraction of the times Jesus claims his God is not he .. let us now have your answer .. . and support for your defacto claim .. proof as opposed to evicence har har .. OK just evidence will do .. letting you out of the ridiculous bar you set ... Proof -- Homer

@jimb cannot support his claim that Jesus is God. He has no evidence let alone proof.
He only has two verses that he 'believes' mean Jesus is God, and he badly misinterpreted those verses.

John 1:1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

 

[Sargonski]

The OP is nonsense! Jesus is God. The burden of proof lies on those who dispute this fact. #2,159

That was not my claim. It was the claim of @jimb in his post #2,159

I do not believe that Jesus is God, for all the reasons you stated, and many more.

My bad .. I clearly misread your post ..

 

[Trailblazer]

My bad .. I clearly misread your post ..

That's okay. We got it straightened out now.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

This at the time when many have turned away from the faith, the many do not realise that they have and that can just as easily be JW's as well.

These verses are more than likely applicable to those that embrace a "New Name", given of God as promised by Jesus Christ.

Regards Tony

Do you know why we as JW’s are quite sure we haven’t “turned away from the faith”, or strayed from it?

Because Jesus adroitly pinpointed what would ID His followers… to his apostles He said, “By this all will know that you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves.” — John 13:35

So right away, Jesus cut through all the dogma-searching, all the “debates about words” - 1Tim.6:3,4.

A person searching for (the Christian) God should look at a religious organization’s actions that are in line with Jesus’ instructions.

If a Christian-professing sect gives in to state pressure / nationalism and engages in warfare… how can they say they’re following Christ? If they’re killing their brothers of another country?
Grief, Jesus told his followers to even ‘love their enemy’! — Matthew 5:44

But Christendom is so messed up! They have been engaging in warfare since Constantine the Great! Since their inception!

Jesus Himself prophesied at Matthew 7:21-23 that there would be those calling themselves Christians, but Jesus would deny them, saying “Away from Me, you workers of evil!”

Here again, we see actions are what Jesus highlighted… “workers of evil”. Certainly, it’s the leaders of Christendom who are behind these “works”: encouraging their flocks to involve themselves in the world’s wars & kill others, simply due to ideology or geography.

Did not Jesus say to his followers, “You must be not of / no part of this world”? (John 15:19; John 17:14,16; see James 4:4) You can see why Christ would say this, having “no part” in the world’s affairs, which in turn many times leads to the world’s hatred…we could become disobedient to Christ by joining in conflicts.


And when it comes to the Bible…

it seems as if something was/is working behind the scenes, messing around with its statements.
The Author’s Name (Yahweh) is taken out in over 6,820 places (due to a crazy superstition), and replaced with Lord.
Then when Jesus came on the scene & people are (correctly) taught, “Jesus is Lord”, and they think, “Oh, that’s Jesus in the OT then!”
(No, that’s incorrect.)

(There’s so much more to say about this Triune Dogma concept! Christendom has had over 1600 yrs to twist & misapply passages.)


Then, we have the “hellfire” teaching… no such word in Greek! It has scared so many people! How heinous to think that God would do that!
In relation to that, is the earlier origin of the “immortal soul” tenet. (These ideas are related, because if people were first taught that the dead continue to live after death, then that could lead to the teaching that God is tormenting their dead loved ones in another realm!

However, the Bible states repeatedly, time after time, that the soul dies! And stays dead!

Most translations will use other words, like “creature”, or “body”, or “corpse”, or “living thing” in speaking about dying or death, but the word they are translating, many times, is “soul.”

I’d be glad to post the Scriptures! I did to Trailblazer, but she got upset.

The only hope for the dead to live again, is the Resurrection. — Acts 24:15.

Yes, more than any other religious book, the Bible — and its Author — have suffered the most attacks! And the meaning of words, hidden!


You probably won’t believe this, but it’s by design!

The bible itself gives us some insight into this…
At Luke 4:5,6; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9, we’re informed of an Entity who has control of this world.

It explains a lot, as to the way things are… not just the attacks on the Bible, but how messed-up society is becoming.


Take care.

 

[jimb]

Do you know why we as JW’s are quite sure we haven’t “turned away from the faith”, or strayed from it?

Because Jesus adroitly pinpointed what would ID His followers… to his apostles He said, “By this all will know that you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves.” — John 13:35

So right away, Jesus cut through all the dogma-searching, all the “debates about words” - 1Tim.6:3,4.

A person searching for (the Christian) God should look at a religious organization’s actions that are in line with Jesus’ instructions.

If a Christian-professing sect gives in to state pressure / nationalism and engages in warfare… how can they say they’re following Christ? If they’re killing their brothers of another country?
Grief, Jesus told his followers to even ‘love their enemy’! — Matthew 5:44

But Christendom is so messed up! They have been engaging in warfare since Constantine the Great! Since their inception!

Jesus Himself prophesied at Matthew 7:21-23 that there would be those calling themselves Christians, but Jesus would deny them, saying “Away from Me, you workers of evil!”

Here again, we see actions are what Jesus highlighted… “workers of evil”. Certainly, it’s the leaders of Christendom who are behind these “works”: encouraging their flocks to involve themselves in the world’s wars & kill others, simply due to ideology or geography.

Did not Jesus say to his followers, “You must be not of / no part of this world”? (John 15:19; John 17:14,16; see James 4:4) You can see why Christ would say this, having “no part” in the world’s affairs, which in turn many times leads to the world’s hatred…we could become disobedient to Christ by joking in conflicts.


And when it comes to the Bible… it
seems as if something was/is working behind the scenes, messing around with its statements.
The Author’s Name (Yahweh) is taken out in over 6,820 places (due to a crazy superstition), and replaced with Lord.
Then when Jesus came on the scene & people are (correctly) taught, “Jesus is Lord”, and they think, “Oh, that’s Jesus in the OT then!”
(No, that’s incorrect.)

(There’s so much more to say about this Triune Dogma concept! Christendom has had over 1600 yrs to twist & misapply passages.)


Then, we have the “hellfire” teaching… no such word in Greek! It has scared so many people!
In relation to that, is the earlier origin of the “immortal soul” tenet. (These ideas are related, because if people were first taught that the dead continue to live after death, then that could lead to the teaching that God is tormenting their dead loved ones in another realm!

However, the Bible states repeatedly, time after time, that the soul dies! And stays dead!

Most translations will use other words, like “creature”, or “body”, or “corpse”, or “living thing” in speaking about dying or death, but the word they are translating, many times, is “soul.”

I’d be glad to post the Scriptures! I did to Trailblazer, but she got upset.

The only hope for the dead to live again, is the Resurrection. — Acts 24:15.

Yes, more than any other religious book, the Bible — and its Author — have suffered the most attacks! And the meaning of words, hidden!


You probably won’t believe this, but it’s by design!

The bible itself gives us some insight into this…
At Luke 4:5,6; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9, we’re informed of an Entity who has control of this world.

It explains a lot, as to the way things are… not just the attacks on the Bible, but how messed-up society is becoming.


Take care.

Is Jesus Christ God?

 

[Eli G]

Is Jesus Christ God?

What did Jesus say?

John 4:21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

... 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

... 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

Rev. 3:12 “‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.​

 

[Trailblazer]

And when it comes to the Bible… it
seems as if something was/is working behind the scenes, messing around with its statements.
The Author’s Name (Yahweh) is taken out in over 6,820 places (due to a crazy superstition), and replaced with Lord.
Then when Jesus came on the scene & people are (correctly) taught, “Jesus is Lord”, and they think, “Oh, that’s Jesus in the OT then!”
(No, that’s incorrect.)

No, that is not Jesus in the OT. Jesus is not the Lord, God is the Lord.

However, the Bible states repeatedly, time after time, that the soul dies! And stays dead!

No, the Bible does not say that the soul dies and stays dead.
The soul is the human spirit. The human spirit never dies.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Wherever the Bible says that the soul can die or that the soul dies it means that soul does not attain eternal life.

Eternal life has nothing to do with physical life and that is where the Christians got it wrong. Jesus never said that eternal life means rising from the grave and living forever. In John 17:3 Jesus tells is clearly and plainly what eternal life is, which is exactly the same as what Baha'is believe.

John 17:3 NIV
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was to spiritual life, which comes by knowing God and Jesus.

The soul is eternal, the body perishes. That is why Jesus said:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

Most translations will use other words, like “creature”, or “body”, or “corpse”, or “living thing” in speaking about dying or death, but the word they are translating, many times, is “soul.”

I’d be glad to post the Scriptures! I did to Trailblazer, but she got upset.

I was not upset. I just saw no point in covering the same ground again and again and again, and getting nowhere.
If you post those scriptures I will explain what they mean.

The only hope for the dead to live again, is the Resurrection. — Acts 24:15.

No, the only hope to live again is to know Jesus and God.

John 17:3 NIV
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus never said anything about a body rising from the grave to attain everlasting life/eternal life, NEVER.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

There is nothing about a resurrection of the dead BODIES in that verse.
That verse refers to a spiritual resurrection, not a bodily one.
The spiritually dead would be brought back to spiritual life when Christ returns.

resurrection
the act of bringing something that had disappeared or ended back into use or existence

resurrection

1. the act of bringing something that had disappeared or ended back into use or…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[jimb]

Anyone who thinks that Jesus is not God has no understanding of God's truth, as expressed clearly and unequivocally in the Bible. That person should learn how to absorb what s/he has read by opening her/his mind. Nobody will ever learn the truth if their mind remains closed.

 

[Trailblazer]

Anyone who thinks that Jesus is not God has no understanding of God's truth, as expressed clearly and unequivocally in the Bible. That person should learn how to absorb what s/he has read by opening her/his mind. Nobody will ever learn the truth if their mind remains closed.

Anyone who thinks that Jesus is God has no understanding of God's truth, as expressed clearly and unequivocally in the Bible. That person should learn how to absorb what s/he has read by opening her/his mind. Nobody will ever learn the truth if their mind remains closed.

 

[Oeste]

I mean, for something so important as identifying who God is, the Bible should be filled with such clear & unambiguous statements like you just said. But where are they? They’re not there.

They're there. I'll give you one in a moment because it has to do with what we were discussing.

You have one, John 1:1, which in most translations (written by Trinitarians) says “…and the Word was God”. But next, John says, “This one was in beginning with God.” (Who can be “with” someone, and also be the same one?) And just a few verses later, John says, “No one has ever seen God.”

Why would the Apostle write something so ambiguous? Do all translations word John 1:1 that way? No…
John 1:1 is not ambiguous at all, if you’re a Unitarian & use E. Goodspeed’s Translation,

Once we remove the obfuscation Unitarians use to surround the text it's not ambiguous at all.

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5)​

As the only begotten Son of God, John recognizes Jesus is making himself to be equal with God, just as the Jews who attempted to stone him did.

We also have the ruler asking Jesus:

Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God.​

So is Jesus any good? So far, some of our JW friends have suggested Jesus is not all that good, or perhaps engaging in a false humility by claiming he wasn't all that good in order to show he was humble to the Father. A shocking accusation if it were true. However, I believe this is more of an attempt to protect WT dogma then it is a defense of biblical truth.

So what does the bible really teach?

Jesus answers that himself:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11​

Jesus is not only our good teacher, but our good shepherd, and he cannot be called good teacher or good shepherd unless he is God, because as Jesus stated, and our unitarian friends are fond to remind us, "only God is good". (Mark 10 17-22)

 

[YoursTrue]

No, I figured that out a long time ago.
We are on the same page when it comes to Jesus is not God.

When Jesus said there is only one True God, he was not referring to himself, of course. And when he asked someone who called him "good," he replied, "Why call ME good?" Because to me it is clear he learned all goodness from his heavenly Father and gave his Father credit for everything that he learned and knew and taught.

 

[YoursTrue]

They're there. I'll give you one in a moment because it has to do with what we were discussing.



Once we remove the obfuscation Unitarians use to surround the text it's not ambiguous at all.

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5)​

As the only begotten Son of God, John recognizes Jesus is making himself to be equal with God, just as the Jews who attempted to stone him did.

We also have the ruler asking Jesus:

Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God.​

So is Jesus any good? So far, some of our JW friends have suggested Jesus is not all that good, or perhaps engaging in a false humility by claiming he wasn't all that good in order to show he was humble to the Father. A shocking accusation if it were true. However, I believe this is more of an attempt to protect WT dogma then it is a defense of biblical truth.

So what does the bible really teach?

Jesus answers that himself:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11​

Jesus is not only our good teacher, but our good shepherd, and he cannot be called good teacher or good shepherd unless he is God, because as Jesus stated, and our unitarian friends are fond to remind us, "only God is good". (Mark 10 17-22)

Yes Jesus is the good teacher (taken in harmony with the rest of the Scriptures) and interestingly, he was born to the Jews. Also, we must keep in mind that Jesus learned all goodness from his heavenly Father. As such he directed such glory to his heavenly Father, who is good in the supreme sense. Proverbs 11:2 expresses this. Unlike many other teachers, Jesus humbly leaves the setting of standards to his Father.

 

[Oeste]

Yes Jesus is the good teacher (taken in harmony with the rest of the Scriptures)

Like you, I see no other harmony.

When Jesus was called "Good Teacher" Jesus specifically pointed out to the ruler that only God is good.

We can have many teachers, but if only God is our good teacher, what does that tell us about Jesus?

As such he directed such glory to his heavenly Father, who is good in the supreme sense

"Good in the Supreme sense" ?

So who is our good teacher in a non-supreme sense, and where can we find more about these lesser "gradations of good" that were attached to Jesus.


Also, this brings up another problem. Not for Trinitarians of course, but for Unitarians.

The suggestion is that "Good" is on some sort of sliding scale. Eli G, another JW, gave a good example of this when he stated:

Is Jesus good? Yes, but he says he is not good to the same degree that God, his Father, is good. That was not the only time he talked about it.

I'm not seeing where Jesus "is not good to the same degree that God, his Father, is good".

In fact, I see Jesus is exactly the same "good" because he reflects the Father perfectly:

"He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being" (Hebrews 1:3 NWT)

So either Jesus is reflecting God's glory and making an EXACT representation of God's "very being", or he is not.

Our JW friends are pretty much on board saying Jesus does no such thing, and that Jesus' representation is a bit on the shaky or shady side.

So we either have a shaky Jesus, or we have apostles who speak in hyperbole when talking about Jesus, or perhaps what the JW's say is true and the fault is not Jesus, but God's, because Jesus is simply reflecting what God is generating.

Can one of our unitarian friends tell us which Jesus is really Jesus?

Is he the exact representation of God, who is good, or is he reflecting something else, that is perhaps less good?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Is Jesus Christ God?

Why should I answer your question since you won’t answer mine: Who did Jesus worship

 

[Oeste]

Proverbs 11:2 expresses this. Unlike many other teachers, Jesus humbly leaves the setting of standards to his Father.

Bonus questions:

1. You suggest "good" has differing standards that are set by the Father. When God created everything and pronounced it "good", was it really "good" in the "supreme sense" of His standards, or was His creation a bit off? Perhaps it was "good" but only in a worldly sense?

2. If not good in a supreme or worldly sense, then in what other sense are we to judge the word "good"?

3. Could this teaching explain why both Adam, Eve, and some angels sinned? IOW, they were never really good in a Godly, supreme sense, but only good in a "worldly" (Adam and Eve) or "heavenly" (in the case of fallen angels) sense?

 

[Oeste]

Why should I answer your question since you won’t answer mine: Who did Jesus worship

Probably because this was answered earlier.

Jesus has a dual nature. He is fully man and fully God.

As the Son of Man he worships God because all men properly worship God. There is no reason for man not to worship God.

But Jesus eternally pre-existed as the Son of God prior to his incarnation as the Son of Man. As God, he receives but does not give worship.