sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Nope. Same concept. God is a community and a relationship -- not a being.
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Jesus is under subjection to God.
- Thread starter Sculelos
- Start date
Actually sojourner, Paul is talking about authority. Just as Christ is head of the congregation, he has authority over it, so the Christ is subject to God, who has authority over him. As to Christ referring to Jesus the human, how can you say that? Christ was already resurrected and in heaven by the time Paul wrote Corinthians. Paul was called by Christ to be an apostle, so your assertion is incorrect. IMO.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
He's talking about social convention, and we're not even sure that the statement is Paul; it's probably a later interpolation.
Because it's within Paul's style to do that. He's given to holding Jesus up as an example -- a human example -- for people to emulate. As a human, Jesus would have been subject to God -- it's something his audience can understand and relate to. Yet, at the same time, Jesus is also perfected as a Divine being due to the resurrection. It's a both/and thing, which is precisely what the doctrine of the Trinity says: Jesus is both fully human and fully Divine.
Right, which is why it's a both/and thing for Paul.
What does this have to do with the issue???
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you are saying that theology does not have to be based on reality. So does this mean Christians ought to be searching the sheep herds for Jesus simply because He is called the lamb of God? Reality says that Jesus was in human form.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What I'm saying is that theology does not have to have a factual base in order to work.
You have said that on a few occasions now, so could you then reconcile your reasoning with:
1/(American Standard Version)1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh,but made alive in the spirit;
• sojourner, is Jesus now a spirit (being what angels are), or is he physical, in other words flesh and blood?
2/ (King James Version) 1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
• if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, how do you say that the resurrected Jesus is both fully human, and fully divine?
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
! Corinthians 15:50 merely means that flesh and blood do not qualify one as a registered tenant in the kingdom that is of or from heaven. The word, kleronomeo (inherit), speaks not to a litteral placement of the person but of that person's right to enter so as to have residence. And man can only enter the kingdom of heaven by cleaning up his spirit so that his spirit is holy after the image of God. A man cannot qualify by means of flesh and blood as apart from a holy spirit his flesh remains corrupt.
Jesus referred to that principle, here: Matthew 23:26 "Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."
Be patient and one day they will understand that.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Jesus was given all the power in heaven and on earth, so, effectively, your OP can't be true.
/according to scripture..
/according to scripture..
moorea944
Well-Known Member
IT's not talking about heaven. The Kingdom or coming Kingdom is going to be on earth. (Too many verses to list on that one). There is not a single verse in the bible that tells us "that when we die we will go to heaven." Everything is on earth. Jesus comes back to earth, sets up a kingdom on earth. We will reign with him on earth, etc.
Flesh and blood is our sin nature. We enter into the Kingdom when we are granted immortality when Christ comes back. And only then, we will not be "flesh and blood".
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
That is curious because God would not need be given anything.
When one gets free from the bias of views from all sides, it is only then that they have a chance to really begin to see.
There are so very many examples of this, from that common interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:50 being literally that no flesh and blood can exist in the kingdom which is of or from heaven, to the very idea that we humans even have heavenly life wearing a literal spirit body to look forward to, a teaching that is completely foreign to the Old Testament.
Mark 9:47 clearly says, “And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into Gehenna's fire.”
To the contrary of what literal body type we would have, what the New Testament does tell us involves having our dominant spirit made holy which controls our bodies and all of ways so as to render us holy:
Matthew 5:20 “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 19:16-17 “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”
So then, what does this mean: John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
It means being reborn to a new spirit in ourselves as though having started over as children again: 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Matthew 18:3 “And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
The written word of God when transferred into our hearts makes us holy from the inside out: John 17:17 "Sanctify them [make them holy clean] through thy truth: thy word is truth."
1 Thessalonians 2:13 "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. ............Luke 8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." .............. James 1:25 "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." .............. 1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Many people obstinately resist these simple understandings, all due to having greater affection for beliefs made dear to them by other humans, like family or visible church organizations where they have made many friends.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
No, flesh and blood is but the shell which clothes a man. A man's spirit is charged of God to be in control of that vehicle that it be kept in it's proper place.
The very reason we have to make choices and are judged by those choices is that we make those choices with our minds thus demonstrating the spirit that we allow to prevail in us.
That is why we be renewed in the spirit of our mind:
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Your taking the word "spirit" out of context.
The spirit that we have in us can be a few different things. The spirit can be God's Spirit in us, or us having a "spirit" mind, which is having a spiritual mind of Christ, etc. But we are not 'given" a spirit, like some people think we are given a "soul". Which of course is not scriptual at all.
It's talking about after baptism. We put off the old man, we have to "think" differently now, we have to have a spiritual mind, etc....
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
You only think so because you don't yet understand.
I acknowledge you think you do understand, so we will go with that and put it to the test.
It is talking about the same thing as here: Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.." (read the entire rest of that chapter which explains it.)
Yes, of course it is after our baptism that this transformation takes place in us. Our baptism begins our submission to this bath in the water of the word of God in a fuller way. Prior to our baptism the word worked in us to establish our first faith. But baptism marks the beginning of submitting to being regenerated in our spirit by the word of God with the help of His Holy Spirit.
Our bodies are cleansed by the correcting of our spirit by the word: Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
And then we want to keep that seed which sown in our heart held tightly, just as 1 John 3:9 also pointed out: 2 Peter 2:22 "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Proverbs 20:27 "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly."
Psalms 51:10 "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
I should have told you that I am in full agreement with this part of what you said.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
What I see here is, (1) we need to speak about what that sin nature really is, and (2) we need to speak about what that word, "immortality", really means so that you might understand that our physical bodies in no way prevent God from blessing us with it.
We are not born having a sin nature as is so commonly taught. Our sin nature is the result of our corrupting ourselves as we learn and apply ungodly wisdom from our youth on up. Sin, by virtue of it's own nature corrupts our natural nature, bending our natural nature away from godliness and causing our souls to crave sinful things.
Cravings (or, lusts as they may also be called) are born in our souls: Revelation 18:14 "And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all." ..........Proverbs 27:7 "The full soul loatheth an honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet."
But we can change what our souls crave so that it craves as did David's soul: Psalms 63:1 "O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is..'
Psalms 84:2 "My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God."
What our souls manifests by our cravings is our inner spirit which must be cleaned up to cease ill cravings: Malachi 2:15 "And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth."
Our souls perform no act with they are motivated of some form of a spirit, whether good or bad.
Luke 4:28 "And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath.." Wrath is a bad spirit prevailing in our emotions and blinding our hearts. It is important to see what these things really are and how really simple they are to understand. For we are like swinging blindly into the air to seek God's help to correct what we refuse to understand.
Love is a spirit, in fact godly love is a spirit which constrains, (as in agitating us to have to act): 2 Corinthians 5:14 “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead..”
This is why Jesus said that he who loves him keeps his commandments whereas those who do not love him do not keep his commandments.
John 14:21 “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”
John 14:24 “He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
John 16:27 “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”
I yet need to address item number 2 but I will wait and take them one at a time.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not! We ARE born with a sin nature! We are prone to sin. If not, we would not sin. Jesus had the same nature as us. "Sin by it's own nature, corrupts our natural nature?" What is that all about..... Sin does not have it's own nature. Our natural nature is prone to sin. We have a sin nature, we are prone to sin. We sin.
.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Jesus didn't have the same nature as us. That is not even the narrative. Where does Jesus ''sin''?
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Because of the erroneous belief in an inherited sin nature (which is clearly not Biblical nor provable as such) many conclude that it is a lie that Jesus wore our flesh unless that be also true of him.
Inherited sin nature is but another doctrine of demons.