Jesus sacrifice is completely pointless

[Demonslayer]

How could it possibly be pointless, when it happened?

I don't get this statement. Does everything that happens have a point? A lot of people die pointless deaths. A woman was standing on a sidewalk minding her own business when a brick chimney collapsed above, dropping bricks on her and killing her. Was there a point in hear death?

 

[Laika]

Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed to recognize him as the son of god?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "yes". Think about it. If you start talking about love, peace and goodwill to all men...

Spoiler

But if there's a public execution, [it's nothing graphic btw]

Spoiler

you get a good turnout.....

Sinners enjoy destroying the Saint. we all have our secrets and like to see others we consider self-righteous fail. we despise innocence and purity because it only reminds us of our own guilt and imperfection. hatred and violence is what we do to forget how empty, lonely and unhappy we are inside because we can't show who we truly are. No God is required to put Jesus on the cross. people hate messiahs, but people love martyrs because martyrs can't talk back and tell you "you're doing it wrong!".

Of course, if the annoying hippie rose from the grave, there's no where left to run is there? you can't win. you have to change your ways.

 

[cambridge79]

We will attack this from a different angle, just for you.

What made Jesus famous?

mostly the fact that he was presented as having divine nature and that he stood for the poors in a time where all other gods couldn't care less. in fact christ was celebrated by the lower classes of the societies and it spread so much cause lower classes were the majority even if their place in society was marginal. As i said if the death on the cross has such a pivotal role in his success you would have to wonder why Muhammad became so famous for example.

 

[wizanda]

As i said if the death on the cross has such a pivotal role in his success you would have to wonder why Muhammad became so famous for example.

Islam is built on the same foundations, of the Tanakh and Yeshua.... So when you've already got a best seller, people will pay to read the reviews.

 

[cambridge79]

Hi Cambridge,

The key is the love of God. The reason of Jesus’ suffering & crucifixion is not to follow Him for man has given a free-will. By God’s love, He saved us by using the most cruel and the gravest punishment to show that His love has no equality.

but that's exactly the point, it is exactly pointless.

Do you need your dad to cut his own arm in order to prove you he loves you? No, because there are many other ways he could do that. And if one day at christmas he gives you a box with his own arm in it telling you "this is to show you i love you" you would consider him to be gone mad.
tell me this: if you could already tell Jesus to be the son of God ( because of the miracles, the teachings, the wisdom and the prophecies ) and he did everything he has done in the gospels except the torture and the crucifixion would you go "well, you know, the guy didn't die for me, so i won't really care about him" or would you go "well, he is the son of god, he talks sense, i will follow him". Imagine at age 33 he simply had his last supper with his 12 followers and said "my role here is over, it's up to you now, i will go back to where i come from" and simply disappear in the sky. in wich way would it be different?
in wich way his message wouldn't be as meaningful?
If you will still stick to Jesus than i've proven his crucifixion is pointless,
if you won't still stick to jesus than you don't really believe his words.

on the other hand, let's consider his point of view, the perspective of God. He is basically cheating. He already knows he won't die, he already knows what is expecting him. It's like for me when the magician brings me up on the stage telling that he will cut me in half but in fact i know he will not actually cut me in half. Or when you watch a movie and the protagonist is in danger but you already know he will survive because you know how the movie will finish.
So this is pointless both from the point of view of the believer ( as i said many other prophets and wise men like muhammad or siddartha didn't have to die in a gruesome way to prove their point ) and from the point of view of god wich in fact does nothing special: he is actually not sacrificing his son at all, first because ultimately his son doesn't die, and secondly because for him death is not anything special at all.

John 3:16-17
16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

To free us from the slavery of sins
Rev. 1:5
5. and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

and i keep asking, why was the crucifixion and the torture needed? the fact that it could have been done in other ways makes it pointless.
i'm not saying jesus was a pointless person. I say that the fact that he has been crucifixed is pointless and totally unnecessary if not to fulfill a prophecy that he put himself in in first place.
Is like the difference between me telling you "i forgive you, let's be friend" and me telling you " i forgive you let's be friend, here's my son cadaver to prove i'm serious" I DON'T NEED IT!

Jesus is also a man of charisma, this is why people followed Him as narrated by the Bible.

That is God’s plan, we cannot question God about His plan because He is God. He knows what He is doing. Without that sacrifice, people will not know how great is the love of God--to save us from the penalty of sin.

i think if god thinks we need to see his son whipped, humiliated, bloody, gory, crucifixed and insulted in order to understand he loves us there are two possible explanation:
- he is not that bright
- he thinks we are really dumb ( and considering that he made us this leads again to the fact that he is not that bright )

 

[cambridge79]

I don't get this statement. Does everything that happens have a point? A lot of people die pointless deaths. A woman was standing on a sidewalk minding her own business when a brick chimney collapsed above, dropping bricks on her and killing her. Was there a point in hear death?

don't stand under shaky chimneys?

 

[wizanda]

I say that the fact that he has been crucifixed is pointless and totally unnecessary if not to fulfill a prophecy that he put himself in in first place.

i think if god thinks we need to see his son whipped, humiliated, bloody, gory, crucifixed and insulted in order to understand he loves us there are two possible explanation:
- he is not that bright
- he thinks we are really dumb ( and considering that he made us this leads again to the fact that he is not that bright )

You're completely missing the point, you're taking on board the Christian interpretation of the Bible; when they're the ones who have been caught in its snare....

The idea is to see who the hypocrites are; there isn't any salvation from breaking many laws to achieve it.

Imagine the Bible is an IQ test, and most of this world has failed... It isn't to show love, it is to see how evil, and 'dumb' people are.

 

[outhouse]

mostly the fact that he was presented as having divine nature and that he stood for the poors in a time where all other gods couldn't care less.

But it did not make him famous, divine was something the living Emperor was also. Not as much value in that as you might think.

in fact christ was celebrated by the lower classes of the societies and it spread so much cause lower classes were the majority even if their place in society was marginal

he taught to lower class peasants in Galilee, but that did not make him famous. John was much more famous by all comparisons.

As i said if the death on the cross has such a pivotal role in his success you would have to wonder why Muhammad became so famous for example.

Your on to it here. Jesus became famous because of his actions in front of half a million people from all parts of the known world.

Its my opinion while alive no one really knew him. Its also one reason why he was not famous in Israel. He was only famous in the Diaspora.

 

[Demonslayer]

don't stand under shaky chimneys?

LOL, I guess there was a point!

 

[fantome profane]

Are you really asking if I'm a Christian that doesn't understand the necessity of the Crucifiction?

Yes, that was the question. Do you understand it?

 

[viole]

People may say nobody would have followed him without that sacrifice

.

What sacrifice?

Ciao

- viole

 

[prometheus11]

that was nothing but standing to the face of earthly authority....and getting condemned for it.

.

Sometimes people stand WITH the authorities and completely agree 100% and are still condemned.

Nothing new. Authority seeks power. They's what it does at all costs. Humanity is but grist for the mill.

 

[Sleeppy]

I don't get this statement. Does everything that happens have a point? A lot of people die pointless deaths. A woman was standing on a sidewalk minding her own business when a brick chimney collapsed above, dropping bricks on her and killing her. Was there a point in hear death?

Yes. Everything happens for a reason; several reasons, in fact.

 

[Demonslayer]

Yes. Everything happens for a reason; several reasons, in fact.

You believe there is a good reason that 86 babies per day are stillborn?

What possible reason could there be for that? Today 86 prospective parents suffered the heartbreak of having their child come out dead.

Tomorrow another 86. 600 before Christmas. 600 still born babies, and these numbers are in the United States alone. It's thousands a day world wide.

There is not a reason for everything, that's a romantic notion, nothing more.

 

[Thana]

Yes, that was the question. Do you understand it?

Yes.
I'm just surprised you don't think it's a stupid question.

 

[Sleeppy]

You believe there is a good reason that 86 babies per day are stillborn?

What possible reason could there be for that? Today 86 prospective parents suffered the heartbreak of having their child come out dead.

Tomorrow another 86. 600 before Christmas. 600 still born babies, and these numbers are in the United States alone. It's thousands a day world wide.

There is not a reason for everything, that's a romantic notion, nothing more.

There are good reasons, bad reasons, and everything inbetween. Cause and effect is both scientifically observable, and observable to the common man. Oftentimes, it's not very romantic.

We don't place enough attention towards certain issues, of which stillborn births are included. Everything takes a backseat to military spending, here in the US. That's one of many reasons, we haven't solved this issue.

 

[bain-druie]

'Pointless' is a relative term, I think. Personally, I agree with the OP. The death of Yeshua of Nazareth 2000+ years ago has zero relevance to me; that said, I agree with Saint Frankenstein that the best value in myth is often in metaphor, however. There are many myths of dying gods who are reborn; the origin of this mythos is steeped in the cycle of the year. There is a deep truth to be found in the story of Jesus metaphorically, since he represents the temporal cycle of life, death, and rebirth that surrounds us in nature.

The aspect of suffering is another consistent metaphor in many faiths; the skeptic in me finds it unlikely that there is really any intrinsic value in suffering, but that humans consistently strive to make it valuable because it is unavoidable. However, since it is inevitable, I think it's all the better to try finding something of value from it. Like the Phoenix (another myth of resurrection after suffering), when we find our lives have burnt in a conflagration of disaster or tragedy, the best we can do is search for the gems that are left in the ashes. When we decide to search, we usually find a few. Personally, the myth of the Phoenix has enlightened and comforted me far more than that of Jesus.

Apart from that, the myth of Jesus Christ in particular has unfortunately become something that is often militantly exclusivist, which makes it obnoxious. The attitude that 'only OUR resurrection myth is right! All YOURS are abominations/ lies from Satan/ pagan counterfeits to steal Christ's glory/ etc.' robs it of all potential value too often.

 

[Demonslayer]

There are good reasons, bad reasons, and everything inbetween. Cause and effect is both scientifically observable, and observable to the common man. Oftentimes, it's not very romantic.

There is a difference between cause and effect, and a "reason." When people talk about their "reason for living" they don't mean, because their parents procreated and had a successful birth. They mean why are they here?

I think when religious people talk about the "reason" we are here, they mean something more than simple cause and effect. I guess that's what I was trying to get at. The "reason" in a cause an effect sense that we see stillbirths are known and observable, you're right. But when someone says there is a reason for everything, I think that means something different. Like when someone dies they say "everything happens for a reason"...I don't think the meaning of the word 'reason' in that sentence would be "because he stepped in front of a speeding bus."

 

[Sleeppy]

There is a difference between cause and effect, and a "reason." When people talk about their "reason for living" they don't mean, because their parents procreated and had a successful birth. They mean why are they here?

I think when religious people talk about the "reason" we are here, they mean something more than simple cause and effect. I guess that's what I was trying to get at. The "reason" in a cause an effect sense that we see stillbirths are known and observable, you're right. But when someone says there is a reason for everything, I think that means something different. Like when someone dies they say "everything happens for a reason"...I don't think the meaning of the word 'reason' in that sentence would be "because he stepped in front of a speeding bus."

There's no difference between reason and cause. That general question of "why" includes all reasons or causes. So for example, the appropriate question would be: "Why am I here, apart from this reason or that reason."

It's a mistake to differentiate between "reason" and "cause". It results in answers that are naturally incomplete, and in many cases insufficient for the purpose of their answering. So, while there may be reasons for a persons death, other than the fact that the person stepped into oncoming traffic, it doesn't help to omit that information.

 

[fantome profane]

Yes.

Thank you.

I'm just surprised you don't think it's a stupid question.

I didn't think it was a stupid question at all. In your post you said that some people understand it and some don't. And in fact I have met numerous Christians who admit to not understanding it. Some of whom still believe it eventhough the don't understand it. In fact I am usually surprised when I meet someone who says they do understand it.

But thank you for answering the question.