Jesus' "Sacrifice"

[1137]

So first is a point many have heard. Assuming for this thread that Christian belief is true, how great was Jesus' sacrifice really? I mean he knew that he was going to be completely fine and move onto a better place. How is that even worthy of praise? Who would't suffer a few days for eternal peace.

Second, many Christians I talk with try to be very spiritual, very anti-materialism. Yet, Jesus' body supposedly rose, not just the soul. This logically infers a material afterlife, leading to a paradox. Is it about the body or soul? Matter or spirit?

Third, I always hear Jesus died for my sins. Well, I never asked him to and never would. Does this story teach us to allow others to take the fall for us? It teaches that we do not need to be responsible for our actions, other people can be. This is in line with us being held responsible for Adam and Eve's sin, but it contradicts the idea that OUR sins lead US to hell.

Discuss.

 

[Evandr]

So first is a point many have heard. Assuming for this thread that Christian belief is true, how great was Jesus' sacrifice really? I mean he knew that he was going to be completely fine and move onto a better place. How is that even worthy of praise? Who would't suffer a few days for eternal peace.

Second, many Christians I talk with try to be very spiritual, very anti-materialism. Yet, Jesus' body supposedly rose, not just the soul. This logically infers a material afterlife, leading to a paradox. Is it about the body or soul? Matter or spirit?

Third, I always hear Jesus died for my sins. Well, I never asked him to and never would. Does this story teach us to allow others to take the fall for us? It teaches that we do not need to be responsible for our actions, other people can be. This is in line with us being held responsible for Adam and Eve's sin, but it contradicts the idea that OUR sins lead US to hell.

Discuss.

Your queries assume that you know the details of what you are talking about, you do not, no man does so there can be no definitive answer to your questions. We have been given only that which is sufficient for our comprehension that these things were done for us because they are necessary and we are not able to do them for ourselves. You have not the foggiest idea what it meant to suffer sufficiently to engender the compassion of all creation and that which would demand justice so that Christ could fashion a second path around sin that would satisfy both the demands of justice and the concept of mercy.

As for materialism, it is not about the spirit vs. the body, it is about what it takes to be as happy as we can be and it is my understanding that a union of both the body and the spirit is better than either alone, it is why ALL mankind will be resurrected and reunited with their bodies, some to eternal glory and some to eternal misery because of what they chose to do with what they were given. In any case all will be greater than Satan and his followers because they have no physical bodies and never will.

As for your third point, you know nothing of what you would ask Christ to do for you if you understood the consequences that would await you had He not done what only He could do; once we are given to know all that we will someday know, we will understand why it is said that every knee will bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ and worthy of our eternal worship.

 

[tinyeshe]

first we have to think, what if jesus never existed in the first place?

see CNN report about "The Jesus debate: Man vs. myth"
By John Blake, CNN

 

[Storm]

So first is a point many have heard. Assuming for this thread that Christian belief is true, how great was Jesus' sacrifice really? I mean he knew that he was going to be completely fine and move onto a better place. How is that even worthy of praise? Who would't suffer a few days for eternal peace.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. It wasn't Jesus, who sacrificed so much as Jesus THE sacrifice.

Second, many Christians I talk with try to be very spiritual, very anti-materialism. Yet, Jesus' body supposedly rose, not just the soul. This logically infers a material afterlife, leading to a paradox. Is it about the body or soul? Matter or spirit?

Well, that was part of the Passion, the ultimate miracle. It doesn't imply to me that the Christian afterlife is a physical one.

 

[1137]

Your queries assume that you know the details of what you are talking about, you do not, no man does so there can be no definitive answer to your questions. We have been given only that which is sufficient for our comprehension that these things were done for us because they are necessary and we are not able to do them for ourselves. You have not the foggiest idea what it meant to suffer sufficiently to engender the compassion of all creation and that which would demand justice so that Christ could fashion a second path around sin that would satisfy both the demands of justice and the concept of mercy.

Ok, so if we have no idea what we are talking about that implies that the scripture tells us nothing. Also, if we cannot know the truth, all the truth you lay bare here is false, as if it cannot be understood you do not understand it. I know what it is to suffer, and I know that the majority of people suffer far more than I do. 3 days of suffering for guaranteed resurrection and eternal peace is not suffering.

As for materialism, it is not about the spirit vs. the body, it is about what it takes to be as happy as we can be and it is my understanding that a union of both the body and the spirit is better than either alone, it is why ALL mankind will be resurrected and reunited with their bodies, some to eternal glory and some to eternal misery because of what they chose to do with what they were given. In any case all will be greater than Satan and his followers because they have no physical bodies and never will.

So you admit that Christianity is partly materialistic. That is what I was figuring, it just doesn't make sense for such a supposedly spiritual path. I suppose that religion and spirituality are different things though, and Christianity is religion after all.

As for your third point, you know nothing of what you would ask Christ to do for you if you understood the consequences that would await you had He not done what only He could do; once we are given to know all that we will someday know, we will understand why it is said that every knee will bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ and worthy of our eternal worship.

I know that I would not ask anyone to take the fall for my own sins. I also know that logically, the thing you fear after life does not exist, at least not from what I can tell. Perhaps you are right that I cannot understand this, I kind of agree now. I am a spiritual person with little care for the temporal and material, so we are coming from very different angles.

first we have to think, what if jesus never existed in the first place?

see CNN report about "The Jesus debate: Man vs. myth"
By John Blake, CNN

Ok, well I am not disagreeing that the actual Christ is simply based of of a man with mythology applied. But, on this forum (I see you are new) paying attention to the OP is very important. I specifically said that we are assuming that Christian mythology is true for the sake of this debate.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

So first is a point many have heard. Assuming for this thread that Christian belief is true, how great was Jesus' sacrifice really? I mean he knew that he was going to be completely fine and move onto a better place. How is that even worthy of praise? Who would't suffer a few days for eternal peace.

Well, even though he knew he sacrificed a lot more than any other man would, he definitely went for it, didn't try to escape, as another man would.

Second, many Christians I talk with try to be very spiritual, very anti-materialism. Yet, Jesus' body supposedly rose, not just the soul. This logically infers a material afterlife, leading to a paradox. Is it about the body or soul? Matter or spirit?

No, Jesus is the only materialistic incarnation in the Heavens.

Third, I always hear Jesus died for my sins. Well, I never asked him to and never would. Does this story teach us to allow others to take the fall for us? It teaches that we do not need to be responsible for our actions, other people can be. This is in line with us being held responsible for Adam and Eve's sin, but it contradicts the idea that OUR sins lead US to hell.

It doesn't mean that at all, sin was nearly impossible for a man to overcome without Jesus. Sure we should do things on our own, but if a man absolutely needs our help, he really should get a hand, and I'm saying this as a Capitalist.

Adam and Eve, metaphorically taken, resemble ALL men and women on earth, hence Adam meaning Man and Eve meaning Woman.