Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[e.r.m.]

I have agreed wholeheartedly with you before on this point and I still do.


That would all be true and I'd be wrong if the Apostles instantly grasped the whole truth in on fell swing. But, as I've said repeatedly, that is not how life and people work. In this case, Paul had not even written one word, so all he did wright later would be new information. Everything recorded in the scriptures did happen, but not everything was what God intended to happen.

When the apostles (including Paul) did grasp the whole truth, why didn't they go back and correct what they had specifically said earlier about baptism in water in Jesus's name? e.g. - Acts 2:38-39, 10:47-48, and what Ananias had said Acts 22:16?
Could it be no correction was made because they got that right the first time?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Acts 2:38 tells us to repent and be baptized and we will receive the Holy Ghost. Jesus did not need to repent for he was without sin. But he was baptized and the spirit came upon him. Jesus was giving us an example. We must repent and be baptized and then we will receive the Holy Spirit. Jesus was howing what we must do.

 

[Nova2216]

No. Jesus will raise all the babies that ever died and will judge them according to their works. Since a baby can't do too much harm, I can't imagine Jesus condemning them to the second death of Revelation.


I didn't vacillate. There is no vacillation in saying that if one believes for healing they will be healed and saying, that due to unconsciousness or inability to reason, someone else can believe for that person.

If you were very sick but still able to think, you would believe for your own healing. But if you were in a coma, you obviously could not believe anything. God didn't let you suffer because of that. Instead He made a provision for someone to believe for you. I quoted two verses that said just that. I think I also quoted a verse or two that shows you are responsible for your own believing as long as you are aware enough to do so. No vacillation. Two different scenarios altogether.

So where is the disharmony in what I just said?

* Do you think about these things before you post?

What "WORKS" does a BABY DO?



You Vacillate here, there and everywhere.

 

[Nova2216]

HI Nova2216 I think I asked before but would you give your opinion on "that which is born of the spirit IS spirit"? And exactly what do you believe it means to be born again? When and how does it occur? I am following a lot of what you say but need clarification on these points.

We have two elements in (Jn 3:3-5).

1. Water (refering to baptism for the remeission of sins) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)

2. Born of Spirit - men being instructed by the words of the Spirit on how to be baptized correctly.

The Kingdom is spiritual (not literal).

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. {within you: or, among you }


Most people make the same mistake the Jews made and think the kingdom is going to be a literal kingdom. Jesus tried to get people to understand His kingdom is NOT LITERAL but spiritual.

(Jn 18:36) - My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Since the kingdom which was established in (Acts 2) is SPIRITUAL and NOT LITERAL many people think the kingdom was NOT established at all in the first century.

They are wrong.

The kingdom = The church (Mt.16:18,19)

In (Acts 2:38,47) some were placed into the kingdom (or Church).

In (Col.1:13) some were translated into the kingdom in the first century.

How can this be if the kingdom (or church) had not yet been established?






Read the lesson here.

Baptism and the New Birth

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.



Thanks for asking.

 

[Nova2216]

THE BIBLE:

ITS OWN BEST INTERPRETER ON THE NEW BIRTH

(excerpt)

The account of Jesus’ encounter with Nicodemus has certainly spawned a great deal of resistance to the role of water baptism in God’s scheme of redemption. While the bulk of Christendom for most of the last 2,000 years has recognized that “water” in John 3:5 is an allusion to water baptism (Shepherd, 1894, pp. 320-338), in the last few decades, many have attempted to assign a different meaning to the word—everything from “blood,” “sperm,” and the “Spirit” to the “water” that accompanies the physical birth of a child (i.e., amniotic fluid). However, once again, the Bible is its own best interpreter.

The context yields three useful factors. In the first place, Nicodemus thought being “born again” entailed physical birth (vs. 4). Jesus would not have followed up that misunderstanding by confirming it! If “water” in verse five refers to physical birth, then the flow of thought was that when Nicodemus asked if Jesus was referring to physical birth, Jesus responded that He was: “Do I have to be born physically a second time from my mother’s womb?” “Yes, you must be born of water….” In the second place, Jesus would not have told Nicodemus that one of the prerequisites for getting into the spiritual kingdom is physical birth. That would have Jesus making the redundant and ridiculous statement: “Before you can get into My kingdom, you first have to become a human being.” To frame such a statement would not only make Jesus appear oblivious to the fact that Nicodemus was already a human being, but also would put Jesus in the absurd position of thinking He needed to inform all non-humans (i.e., the animals) that they are not permitted entrance into the kingdom.

In the third place, while multiple occurrences of the same word in the same context can have different meanings, attendant extenuating circumstances would be necessary in order to realize the distinction. No such factors are evident, especially since, eighteen verses later, the writer informs us that John the baptizer “was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there” (John 3:23, emp. added). Was John baptizing in that location because there was much amniotic fluid there? Or because there was much blood there? Or because the Holy Spirit was there? The Bible is indeed its own best interpreter!
THE BIBLE:

Read more here.

The Bible is its Own Best Interpreter

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

We have two elements in (Jn 3:3-5).

1. Water (refering to baptism for the remeission of sins) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)

2. Born of Spirit - men being instructed by the words of the Spirit on how to be baptized correctly.

The Kingdom is spiritual (not literal).

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. {within you: or, among you }


Most people make the same mistake the Jews made and think the kingdom is going to be a literal kingdom. Jesus tried to get people to understand His kingdom is NOT LITERAL but spiritual.

(Jn 18:36) - My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Since the kingdom which was established in (Acts 2) is SPIRITUAL and NOT LITERAL many people think the kingdom was NOT established at all in the first century.

They are wrong.

The kingdom = The church (Mt.16:18,19)

In (Acts 2:38,47) some were placed into the kingdom (or Church).

In (Col.1:13) some were translated into the kingdom in the first century.

How can this be if the kingdom (or church) had not yet been established?






Read the lesson here.

Baptism and the New Birth

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.



Thanks for asking.

I will just make two comments for now. You say born of the spirit means being instructed by the spirit. When a child goes to school and is instructed by his teacher, would you say the child was born of the teacher? I am not sure I see the connection. Second, Mathew 16:18 is where Jesus tells Peter about the beginning of the church. I do not see where the kingdom is related to the church. As an added note, I believe God's church is not built on any man but on Jesus who is called the Rock many times. Thanks for your reply and I hope we can discuss more of this.

 

[e.r.m.]

Acts 2:38 tells us to repent and be baptized and we will receive the Holy Ghost. Jesus did not need to repent for he was without sin. But he was baptized and the spirit came upon him. Jesus was giving us an example. We must repent and be baptized and then we will receive the Holy Spirit. Jesus was howing what we must do.

rrobs and I were coming from somewhere else with this conversation.
I'll address yours as stated.
Acts 2:38 did not command a sinless Jesus to get baptized, it commanded other people (with sin) to get baptized. It says ee must repent and be baptized in Jesus's name for the forgiveness of sins and we will receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was giving us an example.
Jesus was howing what we must do.

There is no scripture that says Jesus's baptism in water was related to anyone else's baptism in water after his death in any way.
No one ever says to get baptized in water because Jesus got baptized in water. No one in the Bible ever says to follow Jesus's example in getting baptized in water. It was not a teaching. It's become a tradition teaching since them, but there's no basis in the Bible connecting his baptism in water with what was commanded from Matthew 28:19 onward.

 

[Nova2216]

In Zechariah, you are mixing up Jews with the Church of the Body (Eph 1:22-23). Zechariah is talking about Jesus 2nd coming when God will fulfill all the promises He made to Israel. The church has nothing to do with that. Different time and different people.

In 1 Cor 13:8-10 we learn that when that which is perfect is come, we will no longer need that which is part. Again, that is only when Jesus returns and he will write God's laws in our hearts. There will no longer be two Christians that can not agree on the same verses or 10,000+ different denominations. Clearly all Christians lack perfection as evidenced by the sins we all commit (1 John 1:8). Something is lacking!

Maybe this will help;

1 Cor 13:12,

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
​

Until we see Jesus face to face we are in the "now" and we are looking through a dark glass. Again, hardly a sign of perfection.

Eph 4:13,

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
​

Looks like until we can all agree on everything, we need the gift ministries. Once Jesus returns there will be no need for apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers. I always find it amusing to hear a pastor teach we have arrived at the perfection spoken of in verse 12. If what he was saying were true, he'd be out of a job! He wouldn't be teaching anything at all, since we would all be perfect. It amazes me they never see the irony in what they say. But then again, I understand nobody can go beyond what they are taught.

Not sure why you would use Acts 6:6 to say miracles ceased. Maybe a typo, you meant some other verse?

The same with Acts 18. That is just saying the power of God can't be bought. It doesn't deny the existence of the power in any way, shape, or form.

Nor does Acts 19 deny the power. It is a case of what I said a above, i.e., nobody can go beyond what they are taught. All the Corinthians had been taught was baptism in water. Verse 2 says they hadn't even heard of holy spirit. Paul educated them, like I'm trying to do with you. Paul told them about holy spirit, they, unlike you, believed what he said, and viola, they spoke in tongues which is one of the nine ways the invisible holy spirit can manifest itself in the material world.

BTW, why would you believe TV over God's word? I knew a guy who used to say, "I don't care if it never comes to pass, it is still God's word!" That is exactly what all those mentioned in Hebrews 11 thought. Abraham never saw his seed as the stars of the sky, nor did he live in the land God promised to give him. But he didn't waver in his belief. Clearly he thought more of God's word than his own eyes. You may want to consider following his lead.

* Before I begin may I ask you a couple of questions.

1. How much do you use the man made references and comments within your bible?

They are an addition to the original and much of the time they are wrong.


2. What kind of bible are you using?



Notice (Zech 13:1,2) - 1. ¶ In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.


(vs) 1. a FOUNTAIN for sin and uncleanness (sounds like the shedding of blood). This is a reference to Christ dying upon the cross (Mt.26:28) (Luke 23;38).

The book of (Acts) begins where the book of Luke ends.

This is where the church (the kingdom) is established according to (Jer.31:31-34) (Isa.2:1-5) (Joel 2:28) (Acts 2:16,17).

The Jews entered the Kingdom (The Church) in (Acts 2:38,47).

Those Jews who repented and were baptized for the remission of sins were added to the kingdom (church) (Acts 2:38,47).

Not when the Lord returns the 2nd time but during the first century..


Do you disagree with this conclusion?



You claim Zechariah is referring to the 2nd coming of Christ.

No Sir, it is not.

That maybe what the comments in your bible says and your teachers say but that is incorrect.



Notice if you will the mention of the unclean spirits going out of the land (during the first century).




When it comes to (1Cor.13:8-10) the word "PERFECT" is neutered gendered. Whatever the word "PERFECT" refers to it is neither male or female. This means it would be impossible for the word "PERFECT" to refer to Jesus Christ. Notice the text also refers to that which is "PERFECT" as "THAT". Surely the Holy Spirit would not ever refer to our Lord as a "THAT".

The COMPLETED revelation of Christ is referred to as "PERFECT" in (Jas.1:25) (2Tim.3:16,17).

Thats why it is called the UNITY of the faith in (Eph.4:11-13).


Do you agree?



You claim Zechariah is referring to the 2nd coming of Christ.

No Sir, it is not.

That maybe what the comments in your bible says and your teachers say but that is incorrect.

 

[LightofTruth]

So you are saying no one is born again until they are raised from the dead? What about all these people who clain to be born again Christians? Are they mistaken?

The context of John 3 where Jesus speaks of "born of The Spirit is spirit" is referring to being raised from the dead immortal.
However, he also speaks of being born of water whereby one is baptized in water and into Christ which also symbolizes a new birth.

 

[e.r.m.]

The context of John 3 where Jesus speaks of "born of The Spirit is spirit" is referring to being raised from the dead immortal.
However, he also speaks of being born of water whereby one is baptized in water and into Christ which also symbolizes a new birth.

There's also nothing in the Bible about baptism in water symbolizing a new birth.

 

[LightofTruth]

We have two elements in (Jn 3:3-5).

1. Water (refering to baptism for the remeission of sins) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)

2. Born of Spirit - men being instructed by the words of the Spirit on how to be baptized correctly.

The Kingdom is spiritual (not literal).

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. {within you: or, among you }


Most people make the same mistake the Jews made and think the kingdom is going to be a literal kingdom. Jesus tried to get people to understand His kingdom is NOT LITERAL but spiritual.

(Jn 18:36) - My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Since the kingdom which was established in (Acts 2) is SPIRITUAL and NOT LITERAL many people think the kingdom was NOT established at all in the first century.

They are wrong.

The kingdom = The church (Mt.16:18,19)

In (Acts 2:38,47) some were placed into the kingdom (or Church).

In (Col.1:13) some were translated into the kingdom in the first century.

How can this be if the kingdom (or church) had not yet been established?






Read the lesson here.

Baptism and the New Birth

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.



Thanks for asking.

The kingdom has both a prospective reality and an actual reality. This can be shown by the parable of the Tares and Wheat. When a person believes the gospel and is baptized into Christ he enters the prospective reality of the kingdom. However, not all who enter the prospective will enter the actual because the way is not easy.
When Jesus comes the good and bad will be separated. The good are kept but the bad are cast away. The good enter the actual reality of the kingdom.

 

[LightofTruth]

There's also nothing in the Bible about baptism in water symbolizing a new birth.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Being baptized into Christ associates the believer with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. The person goes down in the water which symbolizes a death to sin. When he emerges from the water his sin are washed away. he has then symbolically been given new life in Christ.
Jesus refers that to being born of water.

 

[e.r.m.]

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Being baptized into Christ associates the believer with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. The person goes down in the water which symbolizes a death to sin. When he emerges from the water his sin are washed away. he has then symbolically been given new life in Christ.
Jesus refers that to being born of water.

The "symbol" terminology is only ever found in the commentary that follows.

There's nothing ever written "in the Bible" about baptism in water symbolizing a new birth.

 

[LightofTruth]

The "symbol" terminology is only ever found in the commentary that follows.

There's nothing ever written "in the Bible" about baptism in water symbolizing a new birth.

As I already said, Jesus refers to baptism as being born of water.
I use the "symbol" terminology because the person who is baptized into Christ emerges with the same nature he had before going down in the water. Baptism is for the remission of sins whereby his past sins are forgiven.
It is only when the person is resurrected from the dead or translated into the actual kingdom will his nature be changed.
The person, as long as he is in the flesh, will sin again. And when he does, he ought to ask forgiveness through Jesus.

 

[LightofTruth]

When speaking to Nicodemus, Jesus says that a person needs to be born of water (baptized) in order to enter the kingdom (prospectively). But he also needs to be born of The Spirit (change of nature) to enter the kingdom (actually).

 

[rrobs]

* Do you think about these things before you post?

What "WORKS" does a BABY DO?

You Vacillate here, there and everywhere.

Well, I have to admit I can't say you vacillate. You are pretty consistent in not answering directly to much of what I write and tell me I vacillate instead.

Seriously though, from the idea I was trying to get across, all you could do was to pick up on my use of one little word, as if you don't understand what I'm saying?

You know darn well I am right about babies. If not, offer me another solution, but don't go agreeing with the devil in Genesis 3:4 and tell me the baby went to heaven to be with God. That's the same lie that got us into this mess.

 

[rrobs]

* Before I begin may I ask you a couple of questions.

1. How much do you use the man made references and comments within your bible?

They are an addition to the original and much of the time they are wrong.

2. What kind of bible are you using?

Notice (Zech 13:1,2) - 1. ¶ In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

(vs) 1. a FOUNTAIN for sin and uncleanness (sounds like the shedding of blood). This is a reference to Christ dying upon the cross (Mt.26:28) (Luke 23;38).

The book of (Acts) begins where the book of Luke ends.

This is where the church (the kingdom) is established according to (Jer.31:31-34) (Isa.2:1-5) (Joel 2:28) (Acts 2:16,17).

The Jews entered the Kingdom (The Church) in (Acts 2:38,47).

Those Jews who repented and were baptized for the remission of sins were added to the kingdom (church) (Acts 2:38,47).

Not when the Lord returns the 2nd time but during the first century..

Do you disagree with this conclusion?

You claim Zechariah is referring to the 2nd coming of Christ.

No Sir, it is not.

That maybe what the comments in your bible says and your teachers say but that is incorrect.

Notice if you will the mention of the unclean spirits going out of the land (during the first century).

When it comes to (1Cor.13:8-10) the word "PERFECT" is neutered gendered. Whatever the word "PERFECT" refers to it is neither male or female. This means it would be impossible for the word "PERFECT" to refer to Jesus Christ. Notice the text also refers to that which is "PERFECT" as "THAT". Surely the Holy Spirit would not ever refer to our Lord as a "THAT".

The COMPLETED revelation of Christ is referred to as "PERFECT" in (Jas.1:25) (2Tim.3:16,17).

Thats why it is called the UNITY of the faith in (Eph.4:11-13).

Do you agree?

You claim Zechariah is referring to the 2nd coming of Christ.

No Sir, it is not.

That maybe what the comments in your bible says and your teachers say but that is incorrect.

You are mixing up different people and different times, a common mistake. You have absolutely no concept of the mystery that God had kept secret until he revealed it to Paul. Learn about that and you'll see your error.

 

[Nova2216]

The kingdom has both a prospective reality and an actual reality. This can be shown by the parable of the Tares and Wheat. When a person believes the gospel and is baptized into Christ he enters the prospective reality of the kingdom. However, not all who enter the prospective will enter the actual because the way is not easy.
When Jesus comes the good and bad will be separated. The good are kept but the bad are cast away. The good enter the actual reality of the kingdom.

Please notice this verse.

Mt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


The field is NOT THE CHURCH but the world.


Most people get this wrong.


Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

As I already said, Jesus refers to baptism as being born of water.
I use the "symbol" terminology because the person who is baptized into Christ emerges with the same nature he had before going down in the water. Baptism is for the remission of sins whereby his past sins are forgiven.
It is only when the person is resurrected from the dead or translated into the actual kingdom will his nature be changed.
The person, as long as he is in the flesh, will sin again. And when he does, he ought to ask forgiveness through Jesus.

(Acts 8:13-24) and (1Jn 1:6-9) contains what has been called the second law of pardon.

It is for the Christian.


22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.


9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[e.r.m.]

As I already said, Jesus refers to baptism as being born of water.

Agreed.

I use the "symbol" terminology because the person who is baptized into Christ emerges with the same nature he had before going down in the water. Baptism is for the remission of sins whereby his past sins are forgiven.

Agreed, but it doesn't have to be a symbol in order for that to be true. The symbolic purpose of baptism in Jesus's name teaching just does not exist in the Bible.

It is only when the person is resurrected from the dead or translated into the actual kingdom will his nature be changed.
The person, as long as he is in the flesh, will sin again. And when he does, he ought to ask forgiveness through Jesus.

Agreed.