Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[Nova2216]

Was John the first one to baptize or where the Jews practicing it before John? If before, do you know when? Did it come out of the law God gave Israel in the desert?

*In (2Kings 5) Naaman was commanded to be immersed in the Jordan river seven times a to receive his healing.

I use (2Kings 5) and the example of Naaman to help people understand NT baptism.

Naaman was not healed till after he obeyed all that Elisha commanded him.

Six dips in the river would not have blessed him.

Naaman was saved by grace just as Noah was saved by grace (Gen 6:8,22)

Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD

22 ¶ Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
(KJV)



There is a washing the Jews did as we see in (Heb.9:9,10) which was done before the priest went into the tabernacle. This was under the OT Law.



John baptized (immersed in water) for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4).

Though John baptism was only for the Jews.

Though this was during the OT in real time the Lord seen fit to capture this information in the NT for our benefit. (Jn 14:26).


25 ¶ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[e.r.m.]

We can only be saved by grace alone because God gets all the credit.

We are not saved by grace alone, we are saved by God alone. Grace is just a description or an attribute of God, not pixie dust. God saves when we believe in him and are baptized in Jesus's name. God is gracious in offering us and providing us salvation. And when we believe in Jesus and are baptized in his name, God gets the credit.

 

[74x12]

We are not saved by grace alone, we are saved by God alone. Grace is just a description or an attribute of God, not pixie dust. God saves when we believe in him and are baptized in Jesus's name. God is gracious in offering us and providing us salvation. And when we believe in Jesus and are baptized in his name, God gets the credit.

Grace just means the unmerited favor of God. So of course when we say we are saved by grace alone we mean we are saved by God alone. Because He wills it to be so. Therefore that's the unmerited favor of God. That's why I said God gets all the credit. That's what grace is about.

 

[e.r.m.]

Grace just means the unmerited favor of God. So of course when we say we are saved by grace alone we mean we are saved by God alone. Because He wills it to be so. Therefore that's the unmerited favor of God. That's why I said God gets all the credit. That's what grace is about.

Agreed. But grace is often treated as pixie dust. God's unmerited favor does not clash with belief & baptism, because belief & baptism are never cautioned in the Bible as a supposed means of earning or as works (well belief was John 6:28-29, but not in the way used in Ephesians 2:8-9). Belief & baptism's role in being saved doesn't change the fact that God is saving us because of His unmerited favor.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

We are not saved by grace alone, we are saved by God alone. Grace is just a description or an attribute of God, not pixie dust. God saves when we believe in him and are baptized in Jesus's name. God is gracious in offering us and providing us salvation. And when we believe in Jesus and are baptized in his name, God gets the credit.

I amsure someone must have asked this before but I am not sure of the answer. If we are saved when we are baptized in Jesus name, what happens to all those people who lived before Jesus and could not believe ib him or be baptized in his name? What is their chance at salvation?

 

[e.r.m.]

I amsure someone must have asked this before but I am not sure of the answer. If we are saved when we are baptized in Jesus name, what happens to all those people who lived before Jesus and could not believe ib him or be baptized in his name? What is their chance at salvation?

It has been asked before. Baptism in Jesus's name was first commanded as of Matthew 28:19 Acts 2:38-39. It logically would not apply until it was actually commanded. Just like Abraham would not have been expected to observe the Passover for obvious reasons.

For those who lived before Jesus
Hebrews 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, [40] since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It has been asked before. Baptism in Jesus's name was first commanded as of Matthew 28:19 Acts 2:38-39. It logically would not apply until it was actually commanded. Just like Abraham would not have been expected to observe the Passover for obvious reasons.

For those who lived before Jesus
Hebrews 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, [40] since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

So people were "saved" before Jesus lived? That does not seem fair for those who have lived since Jesus time but did not know about him or that they needed to be baptized in his name. There are poeple in the world today who never heard of Jesus. Are they lost forever?

 

[e.r.m.]

So people were "saved" before Jesus lived? That does not seem fair for those who have lived since Jesus time but did not know about him or that they needed to be baptized in his name. There are poeple in the world today who never heard of Jesus. Are they lost forever?

That's a bigger question than just baptism, lostwanderingsoul

 

[Nova2216]

So people were "saved" before Jesus lived? That does not seem fair for those who have lived since Jesus time but did not know about him or that they needed to be baptized in his name. There are poeple in the world today who never heard of Jesus. Are they lost forever?

Salvation is not about being FAIR. If it was we would all go to HELL.

Salvation is about a gracious Lord which demands obedience to His will (Heb.5:9 ; 11:6) (Mt.28:18-20) (Mark 16:15,16).

 

[rrobs]

*In (2Kings 5) Naaman was commanded to be immersed in the Jordan river seven times a to receive his healing.

I use (2Kings 5) and the example of Naaman to help people understand NT baptism.

Naaman was not healed till after he obeyed all that Elisha commanded him.

Six dips in the river would not have blessed him.

Naaman was saved by grace just as Noah was saved by grace (Gen 6:8,22)

Good stuff. Thanks.
I think Naaman was a special revelation from God for Naaman's healing. Today, thanks to Jesus's work, we are healed by his stripes (1 Peter 2:24).

Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD

Gen 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

The more grace I see the more I want to do the works God has prepared for me to do.

Eph 2:8-10,

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 not of works, that no man should glory.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.​

We are saved, not by works, but by grace. The works come after the grace. Those who do not really understand or appreciate grace are unlikely to do many of the works God prepared for us. We love Him because He first loved us. He loved us when we were yet dead in trespasses and sins, while we were quite unable to save or even heal ourselves.

Technically, I've been a bit sloppy with Romans 10:9-10. Our confession does not save us. Instead it brings us to a place where God can do His wonderful work of salvation.

Romans 10:10 says that our confession brings us unto salvation, not that it in itself saves us. The words "unto" are the Greek work "eis" which means to come from outside of a circle for example, into the center of that circle. You probably recognize "eis" as the prefix of the dreaded eisegesis. We are not to read "into" the scriptures. The Greek word "ek" is the opposite of "eis" in that it means to come from within a circle for example, and go to the outside of that circle. That of course is the prefix for exegesis.

There is a washing the Jews did as we see in (Heb.9:9,10) which was done before the priest went into the tabernacle. This was under the OT Law.

John baptized (immersed in water) for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4).

Though John baptism was only for the Jews.

Though this was during the OT in real time the Lord seen fit to capture this information in the NT for our benefit. (Jn 14:26).

John is OT. Everything Jesus did was for the benefit of Israel, not the Gentiles and certainly not the Church of the Body (Matt 15:24). Remember, the mystery was still hidden when Jesus walked this earth. The Gentiles were still without God and without hope (Eph 2:12). The NT began on the day of Pentecost.

25 ¶ These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Yes, baptism in holy spirit is the key for our time.

Thanks for the info. I was wondering specifically if anyone had been baptizing in the same way John baptized, i.e. full dunking in water. They must have been because Jerusalem is full of the pools wherein people were baptized. But there is nothing I can see in the scriptures that says God directed them to do that.

God bless

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

That's a bigger question than just baptism, lostwanderingsoul

So is there an answer?

 

[Nova2216]

Good stuff. Thanks.
I think Naaman was a special revelation from God for Naaman's healing. Today, thanks to Jesus's work, we are healed by his stripes (1 Peter 2:24).



The more grace I see the more I want to do the works God has prepared for me to do.

Eph 2:8-10,

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 not of works, that no man should glory.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.​

We are saved, not by works, but by grace. The works come after the grace. Those who do not really understand or appreciate grace are unlikely to do many of the works God prepared for us. We love Him because He first loved us. He loved us when we were yet dead in trespasses and sins, while we were quite unable to save or even heal ourselves.

Technically, I've been a bit sloppy with Romans 10:9-10. Our confession does not save us. Instead it brings us to a place where God can do His wonderful work of salvation.

Romans 10:10 says that our confession brings us unto salvation, not that it in itself saves us. The words "unto" are the Greek work "eis" which means to come from outside of a circle for example, into the center of that circle. You probably recognize "eis" as the prefix of the dreaded eisegesis. We are not to read "into" the scriptures. The Greek word "ek" is the opposite of "eis" in that it means to come from within a circle for example, and go to the outside of that circle. That of course is the prefix for exegesis.


John is OT. Everything Jesus did was for the benefit of Israel, not the Gentiles and certainly not the Church of the Body (Matt 15:24). Remember, the mystery was still hidden when Jesus walked this earth. The Gentiles were still without God and without hope (Eph 2:12). The NT began on the day of Pentecost.


Yes, baptism in holy spirit is the key for our time.

Thanks for the info. I was wondering specifically if anyone had been baptizing in the same way John baptized, i.e. full dunking in water. They must have been because Jerusalem is full of the pools wherein people were baptized. But there is nothing I can see in the scriptures that says God directed them to do that.

God bless

We are saved by grace WHEN we do the works of God He has commanded (Mt.28:18-20) (Jn 6:28,29).

The OBEDIENCE must happen BEFORE one is blessed with all spiritual blessings according to (Rom.6:16-18).

16. Decide who to serve
17. OBEY a certain form of doctrine (Rom.6:3-6) water baptism (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)
18. Being THEN FREED FROM SIN ye became the servants of righteousness.


When it comes to "eis" it means UNTO.

I leave out my driveway UNTO the store.

I'm on the highway UNTO the store.

I turn in the parking lot UNTO the store.

I get out if my car and walk UNTO the store.

It is not until I walk through the doors of the store that I am INTO the store.



Water baptism is the doorway INTO Christ and always has been. (Acts 23,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 22:16) (2Tim.2:10) (Gal.3:27) (Rom.6:3,4) (Col.2:11,12) (Titus 3:5).

The Baptist faith and message creed book says that baptism once was the door to salvation and afforded men all the spiritual blessings in Christ, but now it has changed.

Question - Who changed the word of God?

Question - Did they have the authority to change the word of God?


Here is a very good lesson on "Eis"

The Greek Preposition 'Eis' — Leipers Fork church of Christ

If you find any errors let me know or write the author.


No Holy Spirit Baptism is not for us today.

You cannot tell me how I am supposed to obey such a command if there was one. (there is not one)

 

[e.r.m.]

So is there an answer?

I'm sure there is. I just don't know what it is.
But I do know that since we do know about Jesus that we are accountable, and that it would be foolish to try to use others' situations to exempt ourselves.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Salvation is not about being FAIR. If it was we would all go to HELL.

Salvation is about a gracious Lord which demands obedience to His will (Heb.5:9 ; 11:6) (Mt.28:18-20) (Mark 16:15,16).

Do you believe those people who never heard of Jesus are lost forever? Just yes or no.

I'm sure there is. I just don't know what it is.
But I do know that since we do know about Jesus that we are accountable, and that it would be foolish to try to use others' situations to exempt ourselves.

But you miss my point. I am not trying to use someone else's situation to exempt anyone. I am saying it would be totally unfair for God to say that only people who have "believed in Jesus" can be saved. Milions of people have died without ever hearing the name of Jesus. God cannot be so unfair that they spend eternity in hell because they never heard or believed. A true Christian would never accept a God like that.

 

[Nova2216]

Do you believe those people who never heard of Jesus are lost forever? Just yes or no.

But you miss my point. I am not trying to use someone else's situation to exempt anyone. I am saying it would be totally unfair for God to say that only people who have "believed in Jesus" can be saved. Milions of people have died without ever hearing the name of Jesus. God cannot be so unfair that they spend eternity in hell because they never heard or believed. A true Christian would never accept a God like that.

YES

Here is why.

It is the gospel which saves (Mark 16:15,16) (1Peter 3:20,21).

It only takes one generation for many generations to fall away from the Lords ways.

It's so very important to teach the truth of God's word to our children so they can teach their children (Mt.18:18-20).


Scenarios do not CHANGE the word of God


You said - A true christian would not accept a God like that

Nova - That is an argument Satan would make.

 

[Nova2216]

Do you believe those people who never heard of Jesus are lost forever? Just yes or no.

But you miss my point. I am not trying to use someone else's situation to exempt anyone. I am saying it would be totally unfair for God to say that only people who have "believed in Jesus" can be saved. Milions of people have died without ever hearing the name of Jesus. God cannot be so unfair that they spend eternity in hell because they never heard or believed. A true Christian would never accept a God like that.

When you say "those people" are you referring to -

A. The OT people who were faithful to the Lord and his ways

B. The OT people who rejected God and His ways

C. Someone else during NT times


My YES answer was to people in NT times in remote places.

(Mark 16:16) Covers the whole world. That leaves no one out.


The argument you are making does sound like you are looking for an exemption from Gods saving plan.

It is an emotional argument.

It is not a wise one to bring to Almighty God.


Men are without excuse (Rom.1:20).

 

[e.r.m.]

Do you believe those people who never heard of Jesus are lost forever? Just yes or no.

Yes or no are not the only answers. I stated my answer as I don't know.

But you miss my point. I am not trying to use someone else's situation to exempt anyone. I am saying it would be totally unfair for God to say that only people who have "believed in Jesus" can be saved. Milions of people have died without ever hearing the name of Jesus. God cannot be so unfair that they spend eternity in hell because they never heard or believed. A true Christian would never accept a God like that.

I'm not saying you were, but it is a common question when people are looking for an exemption. Just covering all bases.

Again, I don't know. I also don't know if I would agree with your number of millions in this day and age. I worry about the ones who can be reached, and leave the rest to God.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

YES

Here is why.

It is the gospel which saves (Mark 16:15,16) (1Peter 3:20,21).

It only takes one generation for many generations to fall away from the Lords ways.

It's so very important to teach the truth of God's word to our children so they can teach their children (Mt.18:18-20).


Scenarios do not CHANGE the word of God


You said - A true christian would not accept a God like that

Nova - That is an argument Satan would make.

So you truly believe that a person born 500 years ago in China who never heard the name of Jesus has no hope of salvation and will suffer in hell forever. I cannot accept a God who would do that.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Yes or no are not the only answers. I stated my answer as I don't know.

I'm not saying you were, but it is a common question when people are looking for an exemption. Just covering all bases.

Again, I don't know. I also don't know if I would agree with your number of millions in this day and age. I worry about the ones who can be reached, and leave the rest to God.

But religion is supposed to have the answers. You think a loving God would punish people forever because they never had a chance to believe in Jesus? I would reject a God like that and any religion that did not have an answer.

 

[Nova2216]

So you truly believe that a person born 500 years ago in China who never heard the name of Jesus has no hope of salvation and will suffer in hell forever. I cannot accept a God who would do that.

Does the gospel save? (Rom.1:16)

YES / NO

Either it does or it does not.

If it does then those who do not obey the gospel will be lost.

Those who do obey the gospel will be saved.


God said - (2Thess. 1:7-9)

Those who know not God and obey not the gospel will be lost (punished).

If you want to reject this scripture you to will be one of those being punished.

Do not get caught up in emotional arguments.

Follow the truth where ever it leads you.

Jesus while in the garden knew he was about to be crucified and yet he willingly went to the cross.

WHY?

B/c Jesus always done the will of the father regardless of how it made him FEEL.

Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.