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Jesus the Messiah?

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raibeart

Member
I am not trying to change anyones thoughts about Jesus. I for one am OT Christian. I do not follow the NT verbatum. I do infact like some of the ideology in it, but do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. . But I would however like to keep this unbiased.

How many of you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and how many of you don't. And what is your reasoning?

I will actively be involved in this forum.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I believe Jesus is Messiah. A lot of the prophecies spoken of in the OT do point to that fact. Especially Isaiah.
 

stacey bo bacey

oh no you di'int
I don't. And not just because there is no god.

I can't say this enough, and I know we all understand it when someone says Earth is an infinitesimal speck in space and time....but really. It is. And no one is that concerned with us. And they certainly didn't send someone down here through a so-called virgin birth to save us from a lake of fire.........

Blech the wording of that sounds nasty but I don't intend it to be at all. Just me opnion! So no. He existed but he was no son of god.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Jesus is not the Messiah.

Quite simply, the prophecies/requirements are written in the Tanach (old testament), and they have not been fulfilled... by anybody. The Messiah has not come... hence it cannot be Jesus.

Many Christians use hundreds of verses from the Tanach (old testament) to try and prove that Jesus was the messiah.

Here's the problem:

The problem is, the verses of text pointed to are often not prophecy at all, yet Christians declare it is anyway.

Some of the verses of text pointed to that ARE prophecy were already fulfilled (NOT MESSIANIC).... like a sealed envelope... you can't put anything else into a sealed envelope.

Christians rarely ever point to real messianic prophecy... and if they do, the attempt to justify the claim that Jesus fulfilled them requires all kinds of twisting, stretching, fabricating, etc...

I can tell you why Jesus didn't even fulfill one messianic prophecy in one sentence:

The Third Holy Temple in Jerusalem has not been built.


I have asked in threads created for the purpose of that question alone, how could you show using the Tanach that the building of the Temple (and world peace, ingathering of exiles, universal service of God, etc..) would not happen in the first and only lifetime of the Messiah. If there were supposed to be two comings of Moshiach ben David, using the Tanach alone, how could you identify the first one as opposed to the second one?

I have been told by Christians in those threads that the question cannot be answered. Such a thing cannot be shown.
 

raibeart

Member
Poisonshady, thank you. I cannot have said it better myself. I for one, after much studing of the OT, is convinced that Jesus was not in fact the Messiah. Mind you I lean more toward Judaism only because it is one of, if not the only, religion that believes that Jesus is not the Messiah. I didn't start studying or even thinking this till recently when I started studing Judaism, because of my fiance's family. I then looked into why the Jewish nation does not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and have drawn my own conlusion that he cannot in fact be the Messiah.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Put me down for Jesus is the Messiah and according to a Muslim Staff member here on RF, Muslims recognize Jesus to be the Messiah. Any thoughts?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Poisonshady,

I believe Jesus is the promised Messiah, but I also understand where you're coming from with respect to how the early Christian community reinterpreted the Tanach in light of Jesus. The early church basically re-read the Tanach in light of Jesus ministry, death and resurrection. Not only did this involve a reworking of the notion of the kingdom of God, but it also demanded a thorough reworking of the concepts of Messiah and resurrection. It was in light of that that the church (all Jews in the beginning) looked back into the scriptures and saw many of its passages in a whole new light. The question is, why would the church have done such a thing?
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Put me down for Jesus is the Messiah and according to a Muslim Staff member here on RF, Muslims recognize Jesus to be the Messiah. Any thoughts?

Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet in the same line as Muhammed. In fact, after saying Jesus' name they are supposed to say "peace be upon him" as they do with Muhammaed
 

Jayell

Jayell
I am not trying to change anyones thoughts about Jesus. I for one am OT Christian. I do not follow the NT verbatum. I do infact like some of the ideology in it, but do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. .

.
If Jesus (to you) is not the Messiah then how could you be christian? That's NT, the followers of Jesus who Knew Him as the Messiah were called Christians (Acts 11:26).
 

raibeart

Member
If Jesus (to you) is not the Messiah then how could you be christian? That's NT, the followers of Jesus who Knew Him as the Messiah were called Christians (Acts 11:26).

Sorry, I didn't comletely type the full thought there. (When you work long shifts it happens.) I am a form Biblical Christian, who now only follows the Tenach. Only because I find that the NT does infact contradict the Tenach. Even though Christians will rebut otherwise. And when they do they must twist something in order to do this. But i will say that some of the parabels in the NT do help set morals in some people. Mind you I do teach my son of all religions not just one. I want him to be open minded about religion as I was taught to do, but he is raised in a Jewish household, as his mother is Jewish.
 
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Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet in the same line as Muhammed. In fact, after saying Jesus' name they are supposed to say "peace be upon him" as they do with Muhammaed

Ok, thank you for the info. Do you believe and does mainstream Islam believe that Jesus is the Messiah?
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Poisonshady,

I believe Jesus is the promised Messiah, but I also understand where you're coming from with respect to how the early Christian community reinterpreted the Tanach in light of Jesus. The early church basically re-read the Tanach in light of Jesus ministry, death and resurrection. Not only did this involve a reworking of the notion of the kingdom of God, but it also demanded a thorough reworking of the concepts of Messiah and resurrection. It was in light of that that the church (all Jews in the beginning) looked back into the scriptures and saw many of its passages in a whole new light. The question is, why would the church have done such a thing?

Here's my guess, because I don't believe anyone really knows.

Some of the Jews at the time grew so weary of the Roman oppression and domination of Judea, that they gave up hope and decided that God wasn't going to follow through with His promise (much like those who demanded that the golden calf be built). So, they redefined the concept of the Messiah... instead of the righteous Torah observant king who would lead Israel to victory and peace... they decided to resign themselves to their hopelessness and create a figure whose life wouldn't really make life any better, but whose death would secure for them a glorious afterlife.

They were so hopeless that their only comfort could be in death. This is an indication of someone who no longer believes in God.

Judaism was never concerned with heaven or hell. It was always about how to be blessed by God with long life and many children, peace and success here on earth.

God didn't put us on Earth to make us walk a tightrope, as if one little mis-step is a leap to our doom. He put us here to conquer and subdue the earth. To be fruitful and multiply. We're not supposed to deprive ourselves of all the pleasures the world has to offer. We are supposed to control ourselves so that everything we use, we use it for good.

The Messiah, from all the actual and true messianic prophecies, is supposed to be righteous like Hezekiah, wise like Solomon, humble like Moses, a great king and warrior for Israel like David, kind like Abraham. We're not looking for a guy to be hated by the nations. As it is, Israel is hated by the nations. We're looking for the guy who will bring peace... a time when nation will not lift up sword against nation, and men shall not learn war anymore.

The men who changed the Tanach and wrote Jesus into it gave up hope. They decided that the only legitimate reason for the conditions of their existence was that there was nothing they could do to make God happy. So they figured they'd make a miserable existence worth having by making the afterlife the greatest goal.

They'd cast aside the promises that God gave them and create for themselves a new hope. a "new testament". But, rather than acknowledge that this is what they were doing, they had to demonize Judaism... which also meant demonizing God.

You'll hear plenty of people claim that "The god of the NT is much nicer than the cruel OT god". Something in the words of nonbelievers makes it clear that the religion of the NT is most obviously separate and distinct from that of the OT.

The original Christians were Jews who lost the faith... and all they wanted was a way out. So, they did what they could to make Judaism seem burdensome, too legalistic, cold, non-spiritual, non caring, without compassion, unconcerned with the spirit/purpose of the law, selfish, etc. This way, they could claim that one man's life and death was the change from bondage to freedom. They had to equate God's law with sin... and declare that the death of this one man made them free from sin... free from God's law... but they never called it God's law in the NT... it was always called Moses' law... denying one of the fundamental principles of Judaism, that the Torah came from God.

They were like the Jews in the desert who cried "Why did you take us out of Egypt, so that we will die in the wilderness?" Deliverance from Egypt was one of the two greatest gifts they were ever given. (The other being the Torah)... and they threw it in his face... demanded to be brought back to Egypt, as if suffering were greater than accepting God's gifts. Consequently, the generation who left Egypt never stepped foot in Israel. Their children did.

The original Christians committed the same sins that caused all the misery and suffering in the desert after the Jews left Egypt. The golden calf, the sin of the twelve spies (showing a lack of faith in God and His promises), the rebelliousness against the authority of the law and it's teachers (Korach).

But that didn't matter to them... because for them, the law was dead. It was obsolete... a stepping stone to this new way of being.

It's the very definition of rejecting personal responsibility... the very sin that got Adam and Eve banished from Eden... the very sin that got Cain cursed to roam the earth.

"I didn't mean to eat the apple... the woman made me do it... the woman that YOU gave me"

"I didn't mean to eat the apple... the snake made me do it."

"Am I my brother's keeper?"

"We are all sinners because of Adam and Eve... who YOU created... so we are incapable of doing good... but don't punish me... Jesus paid my debt so that I don't have to do what you told me to do."

It's all a rejection of personal responsibility... an insult to God. A rejection of God's authority. A rejection of God's will. A rejection of God.

Changing the Tanach just made it easier for either hopeless or ignorant people to buy their story.

The next question that comes from you is "Why would the early Christian martyrs who were eyewitnesses for Jesus die for a lie?"

Perhaps their hopelessness is so tremendously overwhelming that they'd prefer death anyway. And all future generations would be convinced that what they did was true, simply by their willingness to die for it. And they knew their death would have that effect.

To put it in modern terms... it's like a poker player going all in when he knows he has a losing hand, because he's hoping his opponent will fold.

The Jews of the first century that believed as I do had truly winning hands... but because everyone else folded (converted), the player that went all in with a losing hand (Christianity) figured it could still win by killing, or otherwise oppressing/hating the Jews to get them removed from the table, or at least count their hand as invalid.

The fact that Jesus is not the Messiah is a fact. Not an opinion. And nothing you ever say or do is going to make me fold.

I hope I've answered your question.
 
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Charity

Let's go racing boys !
I am not trying to change anyones thoughts about Jesus. I for one am OT Christian. I do not follow the NT verbatum. I do infact like some of the ideology in it, but do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. . But I would however like to keep this unbiased.

How many of you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and how many of you don't. And what is your reasoning?

I will actively be involved in this forum.
I am still confused even with the answer to Jaynell about this statement. "I for one am OT Christian". Since the Disciples were first called Christians at Antioch, and this came from the NT. Chrisitans being called this after Christ, how can you be a Christian or follower of Christ and not believe the NT? If you like the ideology in it then I find this strange since most of the NT concerns Jesus Christ and his teaching. I would think that you would either believe the NT or not believe it at all......I'm really confused at the logic here........:confused:
 

raibeart

Member
I am still confused even with the answer to Jaynell about this statement. "I for one am OT Christian". Since the Disciples were first called Christians at Antioch, and this came from the NT. Chrisitans being called this after Christ, how can you be a Christian or follower of Christ and not believe the NT? If you like the ideology in it then I find this strange since most of the NT concerns Jesus Christ and his teaching. I would think that you would either believe the NT or not believe it at all......I'm really confused at the logic here........:confused:

I said that I like some of the ideology in it. Some of the teachings. That is it as far as him being the Messiah I do not agree with, and I do not see him as a prophet.

Now in regards to the OT Christian issue, it was not a full thought/sentence. Like I said in a previous post the long shifts have a tendency to do that. I am a former Christian, who now only follows the Tenach. As I feel Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic Prophosies, however I do agree with some of his teachings, and that he was in fact as history may start to show, just another Rabbi, who was turned astray like so many others. I mean there are 30 years of his life that are unaccountable. How do you know for sure what had happened in that time?
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
I said that I like some of the ideology in it. Some of the teachings. That is it as far as him being the Messiah I do not agree with, and I do not see him as a prophet.

Now in regards to the OT Christian issue, it was not a full thought/sentence. Like I said in a previous post the long shifts have a tendency to do that. I am a former Christian, who now only follows the Tenach. As I feel Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic Prophosies, however I do agree with some of his teachings, and that he was in fact as history may start to show, just another Rabbi, who was turned astray like so many others. I mean there are 30 years of his life that are unaccountable. How do you know for sure what had happened in that time?

Not all the prophets in the OT have complete biographies. Do you know of one?
 

raibeart

Member
Not all the prophets in the OT have complete biographies. Do you know of one?

Nore is there an actual biography of Jesus as well. And using the Gospels as evidence, would then allow for the Tenach to be evidence. Plus I never said that anything was biographic. I'm just saying that people have started looking at alot of what the Bible says, and thus taking from his actions, and equating them with the actions of the traditions of the Rabbi's then and finding similarities. I'm not here argueeing if this is Biographical evidence of his existance. The question was only do people believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Now can you in fact give me evidence to support why you believe he is infact the Messiah?
 

mohammed_beiruti

Active Member
I am not trying to change anyones thoughts about Jesus. I for one am OT Christian. I do not follow the NT verbatum. I do infact like some of the ideology in it, but do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. . But I would however like to keep this unbiased.

How many of you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and how many of you don't. And what is your reasoning?

I will actively be involved in this forum.

I Bleive that jesus is the messiah :yes:

scripture of the Qura'an tells that "Isa" Jesus son of Marry is the messiah
 
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