Jesus Will Never Return

[1robin]

Okay, I got the message. Can we now change the subject into another we can learn something from? We can even go back to the theme that "Jesus will never return." One evidence is that the hope is already two thousand years old and, the chance is that at the end of another two thousand years neither one of us will be around to say, "I told you!"

That specific problem exists for every religion I have ever heard of except Christianity. Christianity is unique in that it offers a supernatural experience to all believers the moment they believe. Since I have already met Christ (by being spiritually born again) I already have the answer and so expect no surprises of the kind you mention.

The immediate presence of God in my life is what grounds my faith, but it is only available subjectively, so I must argue from objective grounds.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You keep saying that there cannot be an individual Messiah, but the scriptures state otherwise. So do many of your own rabbis.

And you keep saying that Jesus was the Messiah. You expect me to believe your view and I expect you to believe mine that the Messiah is the People of Israel. So, you are right in your opinion and I am right in mine. I have Prophet Habakkuk 3:13 saying that the Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One. What do you have from the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach? No evidence. So, what are we arguing about?

Scripture shows that it is possible to have an individual Messiah and a people together as one: Shepherd and flock; Leader and nation; Cornerstone and building blocks. Your efforts to behead Israel makes a mockery of scripture. It passes all the work of salvation from God to an ignorant and sinful people. But sinners cannot extricate themselves from the sticky mess they find themselves in. Why else would God continually remind us that he is the ONLY Saviour from sin and death?

What you are saying is that Prophet Habakkuk made a mockery of the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach if you read Habakkuk 3:13. And I say that you are vandalizing the Tanach by trying to interpolate Jesus into it.

Scripture supports this position. Isaiah 54:4. 'Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.' See also Isaiah 11:1,2,4,5,9. ' a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots;'

Yes, the NT justifies the position of the individual Messiah and the Tanach the position of the collective Messiah. Jesse was a stem from Judah and Jesus was a Jew because of Mary but without a Tribe in Israel for not being a biological son of Joseph. Hence, Jesus could have never been the Messiah.

Jeremiah 23:5,6. 'Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is the name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jesus never became a king on earth and rather died for allowing his disciples to acclaim him king in Jerusalem, a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) Israel had a time in exile and is back as a powerful nation. And Jesus remains in the eternal home of the dead if you read Psalm 49:12,20.

How is it that you, Ben Avraham, a man who should, with his knowledge and position, be leading people to salvation, is instead leading people in the opposite direction to Christ? You say, 'Jesus will never return'. Jesus says, 'I will come again' (John 14:3) You say, 'God is without sins but Jesus is not'. Scripture says Jesus 'did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:' (1 Peter 2:22) And if no guile was found in his mouth then his criticism of the hypocritical scribes and pharisees was justified.(Matthew 23:13-33) These men had 'omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith:' What more needs to be said?

I lead the people to the reality of the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach while you keep them handcuffed in the Hellenistic gospel of Paul aka the NT. I say that Jesus will never return and I have two thousand years of evidence plus the Prophets of the Most High with the testimony that no one will ever return from the grave. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14, Job 7:9) True that Jesus can no longer commit a single sin but, while alive he broke the Golden Rule many times if we are to believe your Scriptures aka the NT. (Mat. 23:13-33)​

 

[Ben Avraham]

That specific problem exists for every religion I have ever heard of except Christianity. Christianity is unique in that it offers a supernatural experience to all believers the moment they believe. Since I have already met Christ (by being spiritually born again) I already have the answer and so expect no surprises of the kind you mention. The immediate presence of God in my life is what grounds my faith, but it is only available subjectively, so I must argue from objective grounds.

The only thing you have to argue from subjective grounds is faith and the Hellenistic gospel according to Paul. You have met Jesus! So did Paul in the Road of Damascus, so he claimed, and wrote a gospel against the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Now that is answerable in the New Testament. 2 Peter 3:4-10 New International Version (NIV) They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Then, and only then, will the Law pass away as Jesus said in Mat. 5:17-19.

 

[crowfeather]

Jesus has probably decided there is no point in returning, after already having done so several times.
People see only what they expect to see, and not seeing what they expect, fail to recognize it for what it is.

 

[1robin]

The only thing you have to argue from subjective grounds is faith and the Hellenistic gospel according to Paul. You have met Jesus! So did Paul in the Road of Damascus, so he claimed, and wrote a gospel against the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

Again, I do not know what in the world your talking about. Paul knew more about the Jewish covenant of the law than the rest of the apostles combined, yet he taught more on grace than any of them did.

 

[MJFlores]

Then, and only then, will the Law pass away as Jesus said in Mat. 5:17-19.

I thought your topic is "Jesus will never return"
Not about the Law of Moses

In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13

And it did vanish away:

1. When the last Israelite vanished away.
2. When the 2nd Temple was destroyed by the Romans.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And you keep saying that Jesus was the Messiah. You expect me to believe your view and I expect you to believe mine that the Messiah is the People of Israel. So, you are right in your opinion and I am right in mine. I have Prophet Habakkuk 3:13 saying that the Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One. What do you have from the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach? No evidence. So, what are we arguing about?

Hang on. I do believe the prophecy of Habakkuk. I do not have a problem with His people becoming the Anointed One. It's you that are beheading Israel, not me! I believe that the Lord anoints his people, thereby making them holy. In my understanding of scripture the head is securely attached to the body. Think back to David, a type of the Lord's Messiah, to whom the people of Israel said, 'Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh'. (2 Samuel 5:1)


It is you who must explain how the Lord 'goes forth to save his people'! The New Testament states clearly how the Lord has achieved this outcome.

What you are saying is that Prophet Habakkuk made a mockery of the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach if you read Habakkuk 3:13. And I say that you are vandalizing the Tanach by trying to interpolate Jesus into it.

Not so. All the quotations I used, up until the last post, were taken from the Tanach. I wanted you to see that from the Tanach alone it is possible to see that an individual Messiah was prophesied. What you are stubbornly refusing to accept is that ordinary people need a Saviour, and that the Saviour must be able to mediate between God and Man.

Yes, the NT justifies the position of the individual Messiah and the Tanach the position of the collective Messiah. Jesse was a stem from Judah and Jesus was a Jew because of Mary but without a Tribe in Israel for not being a biological son of Joseph. Hence, Jesus could have never been the Messiah.

Not so. Both the Tanach and New Testament show that the individual Messiah is the head of a body, a people. Those that receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit are the body of Christ.

And this is how Jesus is to be understood as the rightful Messiah. He is to be a mediator between God and Man. John Wilkinson in 'Israel my Glory' demonstrates the solution in the following words, 'Jesus has a right to the throne of David through Joseph, and is eligible to sit on that throne as David's son through Mary. By that marriage Jesus escapes the two barriers in the genealogy of Matthew, and walks over the one barrier in the genealogy of Luke. The two genealogies were necessary. It was necessary that both Joseph and Mary should be of David's seed. The marriage between Joseph and Mary was also necessary.'

Jesus never became a king on earth and rather died for allowing his disciples to acclaim him king in Jerusalem, a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) Israel had a time in exile and is back as a powerful nation. And Jesus remains in the eternal home of the dead if you read Psalm 49:12,20.

Not so. Jesus was anointed at the Jordan river. He was rejected by Israel but still bore the truth above his cross, 'Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews'. Notice how this reflects David, who was anointed by Samuel (1 Samuel 16:13) some time before becoming king of Judah (2 Samuel 2:4) and then Israel (2 Samuel 5:3).

I lead the people to the reality of the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach while you keep them handcuffed in the Hellenistic gospel of Paul aka the NT. I say that Jesus will never return and I have two thousand years of evidence plus the Prophets of the Most High with the testimony that no one will ever return from the grave. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14, Job 7:9) True that Jesus can no longer commit a single sin but, while alive he broke the Golden Rule many times if we are to believe your Scriptures aka the NT. (Mat. 23:13-33)

As already shown, Jesus committed no sin. His criticism of the scribes and pharisees was justified. It is also a mistake to think that Jesus remained in the grave. He pointed people to the sign of Jonah to illustrate the truth that he was to be the first-fruits of the harvest. If you read Psalm 49 carefully, and rightly divide the word, you'll see that verse 15 says, 'But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.'

I would also like to point out that Paul, and the rest of the NT, is totally in accord with the Tanach and God's progressive revelation. All these scriptures were delivered to Jews, amongst whom Paul was one of the most remarkable.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Hang on. I do believe the prophecy of Habakkuk. I do not have a problem with His people becoming the Anointed One. It's you that are beheading Israel, not me! I believe that the Lord anoints his people, thereby making them holy. In my understanding of scripture the head is securely attached to the body. Think back to David, a type of the Lord's Messiah, to whom the people of Israel said, 'Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh'. (2 Samuel 5:1)

David was a king Messiah because he was anointed to be king in Israel. There were several kinds of anointed ones aka Messiahs; the king, the High Priest and the People as the Messiah. All the other Messiahs were mortal ones. Only the Anointed People would remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

It is you who must explain how the Lord 'goes forth to save his people'! The New Testament states clearly how the Lord has achieved this outcome.

The explanation given by the NT is a Christian doctrine and it has nothing to do with the Tanach aka the gospel of Jesus.

Not so. All the quotations I used, up until the last post, were taken from the Tanach. I wanted you to see that from the Tanach alone it is possible to see that an individual Messiah was prophesied. What you are stubbornly refusing to accept is that ordinary people need a Saviour, and that the Saviour must be able to mediate between God and Man.

The savior of the Jewish People is obedience to God's Law if you read Isaiah 1:18,19 and Luke 16:29-31. There is no other savior because no one can sacrifice himself to save another. (Ezekiel 18:4,20)

Not so. Both the Tanach and New Testament show that the individual Messiah is the head of a body, a people. Those that receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit are the body of Christ.

Yes, but only according to Christian preconceived notions which has nothing to do with the Tanach.

And this is how Jesus is to be understood as the rightful Messiah. He is to be a mediator between God and Man. John Wilkinson in 'Israel my Glory' demonstrates the solution in the following words, 'Jesus has a right to the throne of David through Joseph, and is eligible to sit on that throne as David's son through Mary. By that marriage Jesus escapes the two barriers in the genealogy of Matthew, and walks over the one barrier in the genealogy of Luke. The two genealogies were necessary. It was necessary that both Joseph and Mary should be of David's seed. The marriage between Joseph and Mary was also necessary.'

Jesus died; therefore, he could not have been the Messiah.

Not so. Jesus was anointed at the Jordan river. He was rejected by Israel but still bore the truth above his cross, 'Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews'. Notice how this reflects David, who was anointed by Samuel (1 Samuel 16:13) some time before becoming king of Judah (2 Samuel 2:4) and then Israel (2 Samuel 5:3).

Now, you sound funny! Can you use History to prove that Jesus was a king? No, you can't. So, try to speak logical to make sense once in your lifetime!

As already shown, Jesus committed no sin. His criticism of the scribes and pharisees was justified. It is also a mistake to think that Jesus remained in the grave. He pointed people to the sign of Jonah to illustrate the truth that he was to be the first-fruits of the harvest. If you read Psalm 49 carefully, and rightly divide the word, you'll see that verse 15 says, 'But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.'

It has been shown by you who can't speak without Christian preconceived notions. The Golden Rule spells "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and Jesus proved he could not.

I would also like to point out that Paul, and the rest of the NT, is totally in accord with the Tanach and God's progressive revelation. All these scriptures were delivered to Jews, amongst whom Paul was one of the most remarkable.

Jesus said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law to achieve salvation if you read Luke 16:29-31 and Paul taught release from the Law after Jesus became the end of the Law on the cross. (Romans 7:6; 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) When are you going to get serious for once?[/QUOTE]

 

[Ben Avraham]

I thought your topic is "Jesus will never return"
Not about the Law of Moses. In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13. And it did vanish away: When the last Israelite vanished away. When the 2nd Temple was destroyed by the Romans.

That Jesus will never return has nothing to do with the fact that he taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law, if you read Luke 16:29-31. I also teach to listen to "Moses" aka the Law while I am living. Now, to claim that Jesus said the first Covenant was made obsolete, you are simply implying that Jesus was a liar if you read Mat. 5:17-19. True that the Israelites aka the Ten Tribes vanished away when the Lord rejected Israel but by the same token, He confirmed Judah to remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (Psalm 78:67-70; I Kings 11:13)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Again, I do not know what in the world your talking about. Paul knew more about the Jewish covenant of the law than the rest of the apostles combined, yet he taught more on grace than any of them did.

No Jew can teach grace without the Law. Paul taught release from the Law and that the Law was abolished by Jesus on the cross when he became the end of the Law. (Romans 7:6; 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) As we all can see, Paul had radically severed himself out of Judaism.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jesus has probably decided there is no point in returning, after already having done so several times. People see only what they expect to see, and not seeing what they expect, fail to recognize it for what it is.

According to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach, once dead no one will ever return from the grave if you read
II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.

 

[1robin]

No Jew can teach grace without the Law. Paul taught release from the Law and that the Law was abolished by Jesus on the cross when he became the end of the Law. (Romans 7:6; 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) As we all can see, Paul had radically severed himself out of Judaism.

Well, I finally know exactly what your saying, and I completely agree with it all.

 

[MJFlores]

That Jesus will never return has nothing to do with the fact that he taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law, if you read Luke 16:29-31. I also teach to listen to "Moses" aka the Law while I am living. Now, to claim that Jesus said the first Covenant was made obsolete, you are simply implying that Jesus was a liar if you read Mat. 5:17-19. True that the Israelites aka the Ten Tribes vanished away when the Lord rejected Israel but by the same token, He confirmed Judah to remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (Psalm 78:67-70; I Kings 11:13)

Luke 16:19-35 is a parable
And Jesus told that to his disciples who knew the Law of Moses and definitely the Law of Moses applies to Jesus, his disciples and the Israelites of their time.

The Law of Moses is everlasting.
In Luke 16:16-17
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

The Law of Moses applies only to the Israelites. I am correct that the Law of Moses does not apply to the Egyptians, the Babylonians, Romans, Greeks etc etc? Yes I am, they do not know the Law because they are Gentiles and uncircumcised which the Law of Moses requires. It applies exclusively only to the Jews who are Israelites.

Now does it apply after the New Covenant introduced by Jesus the Christ? Yes it does, because there are dead Israelites like Moses himself who are awaiting salvation. Even David is waiting for salvation.

Does the Law of Moses apply to all people who are not Israelites of today? No it doesn't. We are not Israelites, nor anyone is.

Even Prime Minister Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu isn't an Israelite. He is more white to be an Israelite. He is an Israeli - no longer a pure Israelite or Hebrew.

Matthew 5:17-19 New International Version (NIV)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That is what Jesus said and it is true. The coming of the Messiah was fulfilled in the Law. And we still quote and follow the old testament bible. With some exceptions:

• Circumcision is optional
• Free from Sabbath rules
• All food could be eaten except blood, strangled animals and food offered to idols
• Faith with works
• Believing in Salvation through Jesus Christ
• Jesus Christ is the head of the body his Church

 

[Redemptionsong]

David was a king Messiah because he was anointed to be king in Israel. There were several kinds of anointed ones aka Messiahs; the king, the High Priest and the People as the Messiah. All the other Messiahs were mortal ones. Only the Anointed People would remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Yes, the true spiritual anointing is from God. And the different kinds of anointed ones (notably of King and Priest) find their head in the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The body only receives this anointing through the head. Where is the oil poured? Is it not on the head? Was the king anointed on his arms and legs first? Of course not! The head receives the anointing and the whole body is blessed as a result.
You say that it is only the anointed people that remain before the Lord forever. A headless body living forever, now that's a first.

The anointing of the people comes from the Lord. And who is the Lord? Who is the Saviour? Who is it that has come to earth to save?

The explanation given by the NT is a Christian doctrine and it has nothing to do with the Tanach aka the gospel of Jesus.

The Good News or gospel is that the LIVING WORD, God himself, has come to earth. God has come to do what he has promised in his written word. As Mark's Gospel says, 'The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;' You cannot have the kingdom of God without the king!

Jesus died; therefore, he could not have been the Messiah.

Listen first to the words of Jesus on the road to Emmaus, after his resurrection, 'O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.' (Luke 24)

As you so rightly say, Jesus knew the Tanach. He knew the scriptures so well that he could quote all the relevant passages that foretold of his sufferings and death.

Now, you sound funny! Can you use History to prove that Jesus was a king? No, you can't. So, try to speak logical to make sense once in your lifetime!

The New Testament provides us with a good source of documentary evidence, set within an historical framework. Nothing that I have read in the New Testament has led me to question the authenticity of the scripture. Many writers were involved, and the message is consistent.

When it comes to Jesus being a king, you might like to look back to David's anointing by Samuel. In Samuel 16:1 the Lord says, 'I will send thee [Samuel] to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. In verse13 we read of the anointing; 'and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.'
So tell me, Ben Avraham, was David anointed by God as king or not? If you say yes, then I say that Jesus was also a king, as a result of his anointing at the river Jordan. If you say no, then you must place greater importance on the anointing by men than by God. For in Judah and Israel it was the people who anointed David king, not God. God had already anointed David.

The Golden Rule spells "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and Jesus proved he could not.

What rubbish! Was Moses any less a prophet because he sang these words, 'They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.'? (Deuteronomy 32:21)
Jesus spoke as a prophet, and his words were words of warning. 'Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'
So tell me Ben Avraham, when might that be? (Psalm 118:26)
Think also about Hosea 3:4,5. 'For the children of Israel shall abide for many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an ephod, and without a teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.'

Work this one out for yourself!

 

[Ben Avraham]

Yes, the true spiritual anointing is from God. And the different kinds of anointed ones (notably of King and Priest) find their head in the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The body only receives this anointing through the head. Where is the oil poured? Is it not on the head? Was the king anointed on his arms and legs first? Of course not! The head receives the anointing and the whole body is blessed as a result. You say that it is only the anointed people that remain before the Lord forever. A headless body living forever, now that's a first.

In that case, Jesus was anointed by a woman aka Mary Magdalene. What do you say?

The anointing of the people comes from the Lord. And who is the Lord? Who is the Savior? Who is it that has come to earth to save?

The Anointing of the People qua Messiah was made by the Lord when He, from among all the nations of the world chose Israel to be for Him a Kingdom of priests and a holy nation if you read Exodus 19:5,6.

The Good News or gospel is that the LIVING WORD, God himself, has come to earth. God has come to do what he has promised in his written word. As Mark's Gospel says, 'The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;' You cannot have the kingdom of God without the king!

And we cannot have a king that dies after his days or years of life on earth. Jesus died and, even a king he was not. Therefore, the Messiah must be the People of Israel who are supposed to remain as a People aka the Messiah before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Listen first to the words of Jesus on the road to Emmaus, after his resurrection, 'O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.' (Luke 24)

Now, open the Tanach which was the gospel of Jesus and show us the evidences that from Moses and all the prophets, Jesus was ever spoken of. If I fail to show you what the references are pointing to, I'll be a Christian as you are.

As you so rightly say, Jesus knew the Tanach. He knew the scriptures so well that he could quote all the relevant passages that foretold of his sufferings and death.

None was claimed by Jesus but by the Hellenists who wrote the gospels of the NT.

The New Testament provides us with a good source of documentary evidence, set within an historical framework. Nothing that I have read in the New Testament has led me to question the authenticity of the scripture. Many writers were involved, and the message is consistent.

Really! Read Mat. 1:18 where the Greek concept of the demigod is taught. The only authenticity in that text is that the NT is Hellenistic. Nothing Jewish in there to prove the Jewishness of Jesus. The Greek concept of the demigod points to the son of a Greek god with an earthly woman.

When it comes to Jesus being a king, you might like to look back to David's anointing by Samuel. In Samuel 16:1 the Lord says, 'I will send thee [Samuel] to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. In verse13 we read of the anointing; 'and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.'

So tell me, Ben Avraham, was David anointed by God as king or not? If you say yes, then I say that Jesus was also a king, as a result of his anointing at the river Jordan. If you say no, then you must place greater importance on the anointing by men than by God. For in Judah and Israel it was the people who anointed David king, not God. God had already anointed David.

David was anointed by Samuel as king and, as a result of that anointing, David became a king for 40.5 years in Israel. (II Samuel 5:4) Jesus was anointed by Mary Magdalene and never became a king in Israel. Can you deny that?

So tell me Ben Avraham, when might that be? (Psalm 118:26) Think also about Hosea 3:4,5. 'For the children of Israel shall abide for many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an ephod, and without a teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.'

When might what be? Psalm 118:26 has nothing to do with the issue at discussion. And the point of Hosea 3:4,5 is a reference to the fact that Israel abode for many years without a king because of the exile and no sacrifice was needed for the forgiveness of their sins and their return to the Land of Israel and, to seek for David their king is a reference to Judah as the only Kingdom that remained in the Land of Israel. (Psalm 78:67-70) So, there is no reference here to Jesus who was never a king and never will be one because the Lord is God of the living only and not of the dead.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Luke 16:19-35 is a parable. And Jesus told that to his disciples who knew the Law of Moses and definitely the Law of Moses applies to Jesus, his disciples and the Israelites of their time.

And I have never said that the Law of Moses applied to the Gentiles. You can be assured of that. Even Jesus himself, if you read Mat. 10:5,6, every time he sent his disciples on a mission to spread the gospel of salvation, he would warn them not to go the way of the Gentiles; why? Because he had come to the lost Tribes of Israel only.

The Law of Moses is everlasting. In Luke 16:16-17 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

In that case, Paul was a pathological liar to teach that the Law had been abolished on the cross which made of Jesus the end of the Law. (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15)

The Law of Moses applies only to the Israelites. I am correct that the Law of Moses does not apply to the Egyptians, the Babylonians, Romans, Greeks etc etc? Yes I am, they do not know the Law because they are Gentiles and uncircumcised which the Law of Moses requires. It applies exclusively only to the Jews who are Israelites.

You can be sure of the fact that I am aware that for the Law to apply to the Gentiles, they must join God's Covenant with His People Israel according to Halacha aka Jewish law which means conversion to Judaism. (Isaiah 56:1-8)

Now does it apply after the New Covenant introduced by Jesus the Christ? Yes it does, because there are dead Israelites like Moses himself who are awaiting salvation. Even David is waiting for salvation.

The New Covenant was not introduced by Jesus but by God through Ezra soon after the Jews returned from exile in Babylon. Besides, the New Covenant was with the House of Israel and the House of Judah and not with Gentiles. To partake of the New Covenant, the Gentiles must convert to Judaism. [Jeremiah 31:31; Isaiah 56:1-8]

Does the Law of Moses apply to all people who are not Israelites of today? No it doesn't. We are not Israelites, nor anyone is.

If to hear from me that the Law of Moses does not apply to you, you may enjoy your peace because it does not.

Even Prime Minister Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu isn't an Israelite. He is more white to be an Israelite. He is an Israeli - no longer a pure Israelite or Hebrew.

Prove to us that Bibi Netanyahu is not Jewish. Now, you are talking nonsense!

Matthew 5:17-19 New International Version (NIV) “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Finally, something I agree with you!

That is what Jesus said and it is true. The coming of the Messiah was fulfilled in the Law. And we still quote and follow the old testament bible. With some exceptions: Circumcision is optional. Free from Sabbath rules. All food could be eaten except blood, strangled animals and food offered to idols. Faith with works. Believing in Salvation through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the head of the body his Church.

Jesus was not the Messiah and I don't believe in an individual Messiah. The Messiah I believe is the collective one in the People of Israel. There is no exception in the following the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. And salvation cannot be achieved from the dead, but only through the obedience of God's Law. Jesus himself said that to achieve salvation, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Jesus was a Jew and, he could not have a church to be the head of. Perhaps you are confusing him with Paul who was the founder of Christianity. (Acts 11:26)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Well, I finally know exactly what your saying, and I completely agree with it all.

I knew you would. You are not supposed to act any other way but according to Christian preconceived notions.

 

[MJFlores]

And I have never said that the Law of Moses applied to the Gentiles. You can be assured of that. Even Jesus himself, if you read Mat. 10:5,6, every time he sent his disciples on a mission to spread the gospel of salvation, he would warn them not to go the way of the Gentiles; why? Because he had come to the lost Tribes of Israel only.

In that case, Paul was a pathological liar to teach that the Law had been abolished on the cross which made of Jesus the end of the Law. (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15)

You can be sure of the fact that I am aware that for the Law to apply to the Gentiles, they must join God's Covenant with His People Israel according to Halacha aka Jewish law which means conversion to Judaism. (Isaiah 56:1-8)

The New Covenant was not introduced by Jesus but by God through Ezra soon after the Jews returned from exile in Babylon. Besides, the New Covenant was with the House of Israel and the House of Judah and not with Gentiles. To partake of the New Covenant, the Gentiles must convert to Judaism. [Jeremiah 31:31; Isaiah 56:1-8]

If to hear from me that the Law of Moses does not apply to you, you may enjoy your peace because it does not.

Prove to us that Bibi Netanyahu is not Jewish. Now, you are talking nonsense!

Finally, something I agree with you!

Jesus was not the Messiah and I don't believe in an individual Messiah. The Messiah I believe is the collective one in the People of Israel. There is no exception in the following the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. And salvation cannot be achieved from the dead, but only through the obedience of God's Law. Jesus himself said that to achieve salvation, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Jesus was a Jew and, he could not have a church to be the head of. Perhaps you are confusing him with Paul who was the founder of Christianity. (Acts 11:26)

Paul isn't the founder of Christianity. Who is the founder of the Church?

Matthew 16:18 Jesus Christ said:

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

In fact Paul who was Saul (Acts 13:9) persecuted the first church of Christ.

But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison. Acts 8:3

Now of course the Church of Christ was apostatized by the end of the 2nd century and now you have Christianity with 34,000 denominations.

Now going back to your comments about the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses, applies only to the Israelites (from the time God freed them from Egypt to the time of my Lord Jesus Christ). Where God set rules and laws for the Israelites to observe.

Exodus 20:1-2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

These are the things God told his people:

“I am the Lord your God. I am the one who freed you from the land of Egypt, where you were slaves.

Succeeding verses are the 10 commandments which God gave to Moses

I am sure that these are the Israelites not Egyptians or other nationalities. Otherwise Pharaoh would join the Israelites to the Promise Land.

For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. Deuteronomy 7:6

If people are not Israelites they are not chosen by the Lord God. Hence the Law given to the Israelites are for the Israelites. The Gentiles like the Egyptians and other nations do not have the Law because it was not given to them. But of course the Israelites then kept on sinning even up to the time of my Lord Jesus. So what did God promised to do?

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. Jeremiah 31:31

When did this happen? He sent his Son, the man Jesus Christ who said:

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. Luke 22:20

Even the 12 apostles preached about the salvation of Christ only with the people of Israel and Judah during his years on earth.

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Matthew 10:5

But after the Lord Jesus was taken up to heaven, the Holy Spirit sent by God in his name poured even to the Gentiles and that was the right time to bring salvation to the non-Israelites.

The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. Acts 10:45

Acts 13:46-47 New International Version (NIV)

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

The New Covenant of God is now in effect but how about the old one with the Israelites?

Now what is the Law of Moses that the Jews of today have?
Do you follow the Law of Moses to the letter? Like

Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. Exodus 31:14


For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. Exodus 31:15

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. Exodus 35:2

Do you observe the death penalty for violating the Sabbath? If not then you are not carrying out the Law of Moses to the letter breaking God's law for the Israelites. But then again, what good is the law when God has a new covenant?

 

[Redemptionsong]

In that case, Jesus was anointed by a woman aka Mary Magdalene. What do you say?

What I say is 'Look at the scripture carefully'. The Mary incident (John 11:1,2) was not Mary Magdalene, but Mary the sister of Martha and Lazarus.
Jesus was anointed as Messiah by his heavenly Father at the river Jordan, after John had administered baptism with water.
So what was Mary doing? Scripture tells us. John 12:1-7 gives us the context, and verse 7 the answer. 'Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.'

Kept what? She had kept the spikenard, a costly oil, to anoint the dead body of Jesus. So Jesus had received the heavenly anointing, as did David, and then an earthly anointing before ascending to his throne in heaven.

The Anointing of the People qua Messiah was made by the Lord when He, from among all the nations of the world chose Israel to be for Him a Kingdom of priests and a holy nation if you read Exodus 19:5,6.

I have just read Exodus 19:5,6. I have done so carefully. Verse 5 says, 'Now therefore, if ye will obey my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.'
Verse 5 begins with 'IF' and the blessing is therefore conditional on obedience. The word 'AND' (verse 6) indicates a passage of time.
This tells me that the 'choosing' and the 'anointing' did not happen simultaneously. Why would the Lord feel the need for a NEW covenant if the old had been sufficient? It's the new covenant that allows Israel to become a kingdom of priests. And I'm sorry to have to inform you, but the new covenant includes Jews and Gentiles together in one body.