Jesus without baggage

[Deidre]

Do you really want to construct a world view from the opinions of a random internet blogger? Your disinterest in following rules is human nature, as documented in Genesis, in the beginning. I'd suggest that is the center of gravity of your viewpoint as implied in your post. Mayhaps a deeper dive on that issue will help you follow all evidences--of which you seem familiar from your background--where they really lead, not where you want them to lead.

Um, I'm just sharing the link but it's helpful to see that I'm not alone in how I've viewed the Bible. I'm not basing my world view off of any one philosophy to be honest.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I found this whilst looking for something else earlier, and thought it was interesting. I've felt that my main reasons for leaving Christianity weren't that I couldn't accept Jesus as a potentially real historical figure or that I couldn't view him as a saving grace in my life, but rather the Bible and all of its outlandish stories, rules and dogma that detract from the beauty of who Jesus could be. I don't even know if the Jesus story was tainted, to be honest, by man's desire to control others through one, central religion.

Anyways, thought this was interesting, and worth sharing.

Jesus Without Baggage

Jesus affirmed many of the Bible stories, in the gospels. If you invalidate the gospels, you might know Jesus personally, but have no authenticated texts to demonstrate and know what He said and did.

 

[Deidre]

Jesus affirmed many of the Bible stories, in the gospels. If you invalidate the gospels, you might know Jesus personally, but have no authenticated texts to demonstrate and know what He said and did.

Okay, that makes sense.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Jesus affirmed many of the Bible stories, in the gospels. If you invalidate the gospels, you might know Jesus personally, but have no authenticated texts to demonstrate and know what He said and did.

Or perhaps, "According to the Gospels--which Jesus did not write--Jesus affirmed many of the Bible stories, in the recounting of his life that someone else wrote, that makes up the Gospels."

These texts were then "authenticated" by a later group of humans, who outlawed a number of other Gospels and other writings, and other interpretations and traditions in favor of the "orthodox" or "catholic" (or a very few other traditions that managed to survive, at least for awhile)--a very political process from the surviving records. Which was then reinforced by the machinery of the Roman Empire and the Eastern and Western churches...

 

[DavidFirth]

Or perhaps, "According to the Gospels--which Jesus did not write--Jesus affirmed many of the Bible stories, in the recounting of his life that someone else wrote, that makes up the Gospels."

These texts were then "authenticated" by a later group of humans, who outlawed a number of other Gospels and other writings, and other interpretations and traditions in favor of the "orthodox" or "catholic" (or a very few other traditions that managed to survive, at least for awhile)--a very political process from the surviving records. Which was then reinforced by the machinery of the Roman Empire and the Eastern and Western churches...

Wrong. Men filled with the Holy Spirit decided the canon after men filled with the Spirit wrote it. The falsified books are rather easy to pick out and rule out as nonsense.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Wrong. Men filled with the Holy Spirit decided the canon after men filled with the Spirit wrote it. The falsified books are rather easy to pick out and rule out as nonsense.

...men who claimed to be filled with the holy spirit decided who they thought were authors of pieces filled with the holy spirit...The things that can be ruled in or out as sense or nonsense comes long, long after the fact...

Tell me, how do you tell when another person is filled with the holy spirit? How do you tell when a document is the product of men possessed by the holy spirit?

 

[DavidFirth]

...men who claimed to be filled with the holy spirit decided who they thought were authors of pieces filled with the holy spirit...The things that can be ruled in or out as sense or nonsense comes long, long after the fact...

Tell me, how do you tell when another person is filled with the holy spirit? How do you tell when a document is the product of men possessed by the holy spirit?

These are questions that you cannot possibly understand the answers to if 1) You don't believe in the Spirit of God, 2) You are not a believer in Christ, 3) thus, the Spirit of God does not know you. The Spirit knows His own and they know His voice. Others cannot know Him and do not hear His voice.

 

[Deidre]

These are questions that you cannot possibly understand the answers to if 1) You don't believe in the Spirit of God, 2) You are not a believer in Christ, 3) thus, the Spirit of God does not know you. The Spirit knows His own and they know His voice. Others cannot know Him and do not hear His voice.

I'm wondering about this. When I came back to faith almost two years ago, it was because of what I considered to be a Holy Spirit experience. I was pretty indifferent back then so this experience sort of blew my mind. So at that time, I wasn't seeking God, but he sought me. (I thought so at that time, anyway.) What do you mean by "others can't know him?"

 

[BilliardsBall]

Or perhaps, "According to the Gospels--which Jesus did not write--Jesus affirmed many of the Bible stories, in the recounting of his life that someone else wrote, that makes up the Gospels."

These texts were then "authenticated" by a later group of humans, who outlawed a number of other Gospels and other writings, and other interpretations and traditions in favor of the "orthodox" or "catholic" (or a very few other traditions that managed to survive, at least for awhile)--a very political process from the surviving records. Which was then reinforced by the machinery of the Roman Empire and the Eastern and Western churches...

You are making several claims. I can make similar claims, for example, you did not write your own post, someone else did, and when you reply again to insist you wrote a post at religiousforums it really isn't you. And then if you get banned from the forum, you can say it was a conspiracy of the forum mods to keep only the "orthodox" posters valid.

Your claims are just that--claims. Where is your evidence? You seem unaware of the logical reasons and strong evidence that leads open-minded people to understand that Jesus spoke the words recorded in the gospels, and that the 66 books are true Bible books.

 

[DavidFirth]

I'm wondering about this. When I came back to faith almost two years ago, it was because of what I considered to be a Holy Spirit experience. I was pretty indifferent back then so this experience sort of blew my mind. So at that time, I wasn't seeking God, but he sought me. (I thought so at that time, anyway.) What do you mean by "others can't know him?"

1 John 4
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.


Really the whole chapter of 1 John 4 covers this in detail; I do not post the entire chapter here because unbelievers would surely be upset about it. I recommend strongly that you review this chapter, Diedre. It answers many of the questions I am sure you have.

1 John 4

 

[Deidre]

1 John 4
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.


Really the whole chapter of 1 John 4 covers this in detail; I do not post the entire chapter here because unbelievers would surely be upset about it. I recommend strongly that you review this chapter, Diedre. It answers many of the questions I am sure you have.

1 John 4

But I've always felt like Christianity teaches that we are all "from God" but I remember a preacher saying that we must cooperate with God's grace in order to truly "know" him. I understand what you're saying but I remember my experience and I was an atheist when it happened.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

These are questions that you cannot possibly understand the answers to if 1) You don't believe in the Spirit of God, 2) You are not a believer in Christ, 3) thus, the Spirit of God does not know you. The Spirit knows His own and they know His voice. Others cannot know Him and do not hear His voice.

Again, how convenient for you. And how unverifiable for anyone else who does not get to share in the wonders of the Holy Spirit because his word is muffled with a whole lot of excess baggage--like belief that the word is pure because people who say they were high on the holy spirit wrote something down, or approved some things while rejecting others that were written/said by other people who said they were possessed by the Holy Spirit, but clearly weren't because what they said didn't agree with what others, who managed to wrest control of the POLITICAL and ECONOMIC machinery of the church, and later the Empire--which provides a really strong motive to make sure everyone thinks you are acting with the blessing of god almighty...making it okay to ridicule and persecute anyone who doesn't back those in charge 100%, and explain that "You just aren't opening yourself to the word!" or "The Devil has deceived you!" or "It's YOUR fault that you don't understand!"

THAT is what all the baggage is around Jesus.

Some people--myself included--are just fine with a personal relationship with Jesus...which is something that doesn't require anything resembling a church, or a scripture...if one listens.

I had my born-again experience 44 years ago, and I have not renounced it yet. I felt the touch of sacred, which told me to watch and listen, and to think carefully about what I observed, and to question everything. So, I watched and listened and asked questions and thought carefully...and had it repeatedly demonstrated to me that the ones touched by the holy spirit are NEVER, EVER the ones who loudly and publicly proclaim that they have the spirit, and they alone know what all the baggage means, and that by god, you'd better listen to them, because if you don't toe their line, well, off to Hell with you...

That's the baggage around Jesus, at least from my experience: the real followers of Jesus are pretty quiet about it, and go about doing the deeds that Jesus would want them to do...simply, and without the baggage.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

You seem unaware of the logical reasons and strong evidence that leads open-minded people to understand that...

Just as you seem unaware of the logical reasons and strong evidence that leads open-minded people to understand exactly the opposite.

 

[DavidFirth]

But I've always felt like Christianity teaches that we are all "from God" but I remember a preacher saying that we must cooperate with God's grace in order to truly "know" him. I understand what you're saying but I remember my experience and I was an atheist when it happened.

No matter, God knows exactly who you are. He knows the deep, deep things in your heart and mind that we don't even yet realize are there.

 

[DavidFirth]

Again, how convenient for you. And how unverifiable for anyone else who does not get to share in the wonders of the Holy Spirit because his word is muffled with a whole lot of excess baggage--like belief that the word is pure because people who say they were high on the holy spirit wrote something down, or approved some things while rejecting others that were written/said by other people who said they were possessed by the Holy Spirit, but clearly weren't because what they said didn't agree with what others, who managed to wrest control of the POLITICAL and ECONOMIC machinery of the church, and later the Empire--which provides a really strong motive to make sure everyone thinks you are acting with the blessing of god almighty...making it okay to ridicule and persecute anyone who doesn't back those in charge 100%, and explain that "You just aren't opening yourself to the word!" or "The Devil has deceived you!" or "It's YOUR fault that you don't understand!"

THAT is what all the baggage is around Jesus.

Some people--myself included--are just fine with a personal relationship with Jesus...which is something that doesn't require anything resembling a church, or a scripture...if one listens.

I had my born-again experience 44 years ago, and I have not renounced it yet. I felt the touch of sacred, which told me to watch and listen, and to think carefully about what I observed, and to question everything. So, I watched and listened and asked questions and thought carefully...and had it repeatedly demonstrated to me that the ones touched by the holy spirit are NEVER, EVER the ones who loudly and publicly proclaim that they have the spirit, and they alone know what all the baggage means, and that by god, you'd better listen to them, because if you don't toe their line, well, off to Hell with you...

That's the baggage around Jesus, at least from my experience: the real followers of Jesus are pretty quiet about it, and go about doing the deeds that Jesus would want them to do...simply, and without the baggage.

1 John 2
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[Deidre]

Again, how convenient for you. And how unverifiable for anyone else who does not get to share in the wonders of the Holy Spirit because his word is muffled with a whole lot of excess baggage--like belief that the word is pure because people who say they were high on the holy spirit wrote something down, or approved some things while rejecting others that were written/said by other people who said they were possessed by the Holy Spirit, but clearly weren't because what they said didn't agree with what others, who managed to wrest control of the POLITICAL and ECONOMIC machinery of the church, and later the Empire--which provides a really strong motive to make sure everyone thinks you are acting with the blessing of god almighty...making it okay to ridicule and persecute anyone who doesn't back those in charge 100%, and explain that "You just aren't opening yourself to the word!" or "The Devil has deceived you!" or "It's YOUR fault that you don't understand!"

THAT is what all the baggage is around Jesus.

Some people--myself included--are just fine with a personal relationship with Jesus...which is something that doesn't require anything resembling a church, or a scripture...if one listens.

I had my born-again experience 44 years ago, and I have not renounced it yet. I felt the touch of sacred, which told me to watch and listen, and to think carefully about what I observed, and to question everything. So, I watched and listened and asked questions and thought carefully...and had it repeatedly demonstrated to me that the ones touched by the holy spirit are NEVER, EVER the ones who loudly and publicly proclaim that they have the spirit, and they alone know what all the baggage means, and that by god, you'd better listen to them, because if you don't toe their line, well, off to Hell with you...

That's the baggage around Jesus, at least from my experience: the real followers of Jesus are pretty quiet about it, and go about doing the deeds that Jesus would want them to do...simply, and without the baggage.

Ahhh I'm going to cry ...this is beautiful!!

 

[Deidre]

1 John 2
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Think this is open to interpretation because going with this then, it assumes no one ever turns from following Jesus and then has a change of heart to return.

 

[DavidFirth]

Think this is open to interpretation because going with this then, it assumes no one ever turns from following Jesus and then has a change of heart to return.

The verse is talking about those who do not return. Such as those who have no change of heart; indeed, they had no change of heart in the first place.

 

[Deidre]

The verse is talking about those who do not return. Such as those who have no change of heart; indeed, they had no change of heart in the first place.

If there was for sure no corruption of the Gospel texts, I don't consider these texts to be "baggage."

The OT on the other hand.....

 

[DavidFirth]

If there was for sure no corruption of the Gospel texts, I don't consider these texts to be "baggage."

The OT on the other hand.....

I don't think I'm getting what you're saying. Can you elaborate?