Jesus Wrote the Old Testament

[Phantasman]

WOW! you folks continue to take verses out of context! If you had not done so - you would know -

1Sa 1:5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but YHVH had shut up her womb.

1Sa 1:10 And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.

1Sa 1:11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O YHVH of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto YHVH all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

1Sa 1:20 Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him of YHVH.

1Sa 1:24 And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of YHVH in Shiloh: and the child was young.

1Sa 1:28 Therefore also I have lent him to YHVH; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to YHVH. And he worshipped YHVH there. (Temple)

1Sa 2:18 But Samuel ministered before YHVH, being a child, girded with a linen ephod.

1Sa 3:1 And the child Samuel ministered unto YHVH before Eli. And the word of YHVHwas precious in those days; there was no open vision.


1Sa 3:20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of YHVH.

1Sa 3:21 And YHVH appeared again in Shiloh: for YHVH revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of YHVH.

He was dedicated to YHVH from his conception.

"5. Moses as a priest: (descendants of Kohath)

a. Aaron and Moses were sons of Kohath, the second son of Levi, but had special pre-eminence over all others

b. Moses was called a priest: “Moses and Aaron were among His priests, And Samuel was among those who called on His name; They called upon the LORD and He answered them.” (Psalm 99:6)

c. Moses functioned as a priest on three occasions, all before the priesthood was consecrated to serve "after the order of Aaron."

a. Ex 24, when he sprinkled the book and the people at the ratification of the Law

b. Ex 40:22f, when he set up the tabernacle, put bread on the table, burned incense on the altar of incense, and offered a burnt offering and meal offering on the altar of burnt offering

c. Lev 8, when he anointed the tabernacle and all that was in it, the priests, and offered a sin offering, a burnt offering and an ordination offering for the consecration of the priests.

d. After that priests must be "after the order of Aaron," Heb 7:11.

d. Why Moses is called a priest in Ps 99:6 may be a matter a special privilege since he functioned as HIGH priest before Aaron got his exclusive rights. It really should not surprise us. Why would he LOSE this power and position when he appointed Aaron? I think the answer is that he did not. Moses must have been a full priest forever, but thereafter Aaron's sons were the chosen ones.

e. It is interesting that Jonathan in 1300 BC was a son of Moses and functioned as a priest. “The sons of Dan set up for themselves the graven image; and Jonathan, the son of Gershon, the son of Moses, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of the Danites until the day of the captivity of the land.” (Judges 18:30) This Jonathan was in fact responsible for the paganism and idolatry that eventually sent the Danites in Laish (Dan) and the ten tribes into extinction in 722 BC." The Levitical Priesthood

AND - "As for how we link the prophet Samuel to the rebellious Korah’s line, we turn to 1 Chronicles 6:22-27. This passage establishes that Samuel’s father Elkanah was a descendant of Korah, who was in turn a descendant of Kohath, who was in turn a descendant of Levi. Thus, we can say with Scriptural certainty that Samuel is a member of the Kohathite branch of the tribe of Levi." (Archive) Biblical Questions: Samuel’s Levitical Ancestry

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A God who commands "thou shalt not murder" yet:

1 Samuel:
And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.

The Father is not a murderer. Even when his only son was slain.

John:
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Paul saw it:
Galatians:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Paul dropped the teachings of men (OT and even the disciples) to teach what was revealed by the Holy Spirit.

The difference between Spirit and flesh.

 

[Phantasman]

How can it be "spin" when the Gospels did not exist, - as I said.

The Gospels were written long after Jesus was dead.

Jesus taught Tanakh.

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You see a written book. The Gospel was oral tradition many years before it was written by the respective churches. The Johannines wrote last, seeing the emergence of the catholic ideology that was being formed by the synoptics. And, the reason for 1 John as well. Scholars believe there were more than 100 gospels written before the end of the first century. The catholic church of 325AD cleaned up anything thatdidn't agree with the newly formed Church of Rome. It's historic in fact.

 

[Phantasman]

I don't understand why you say Not Revelations.
I find there is one Revelation with 16 visions, and according to Revelation 1 Jesus gave that Revelation to John.
Since Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " It is written...." that written part was found written in the old Hebrew Scriptures and Jesus based his teachings on those OT Scriptures explaining them for us.
True, Jesus said to teach the ' gospel ' such as found at Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20; Acts 1:8 and that would be the good news gospel about God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 as the solution to mankind's problems when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.

The Apocalypse. Revelations is a "new" title.

Here is the Apocalypse of Peter. The Apocalypse of Peter (translation by M. R. James)

The churches of early Christianity didn't teach Apocalyptics. Even the catholic church fathers were divided on it's canon inclusion. Peter was canon, then kicked our, and John remained. There is no spiritual knowledge to be obtained. Just as John was given spiritual knowledge in the Apocryphon of John (by Jesus). It explains who the Father truly is and how we got here. Given to John after the resurrection. The Orthodox don't accept IT, but Revelations. Revelations seems to be written to those churches suffering under Domitian as strength.

 

[Ingledsva]

I find at 1 Samuel 3:20 that Samuel was Not a priest, but a prophet. To me there is a difference.

Good grief - I showed the verses saying he was dedicated to the Temple, - served in the Temple, - and wore the Ephod of the Priest while ministering at the Temple.

1Sa 2:18 But Samuel ministered before YHVH, being a child, girded with a linen ephod.

1Sa 3:1 And the child Samuel ministered unto YHVH before Eli. And the word of YHVH was precious in those days; there was no open vision.

Psa 99:5 Exalt ye YHVH our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.

Psa 99:6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them, that call upon his name; they called upon YHVH, and he answered them.

Psa 99:7 He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance that he gave them.

Doesn't matter if you don't like it, - obviously he was an ephod wearing Priest in the Shiloh Temple, and a Prophet.

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[Ingledsva]

You see a written book. The Gospel was oral tradition many years before it was written by the respective churches. The Johannines wrote last, seeing the emergence of the catholic ideology that was being formed by the synoptics. And, the reason for 1 John as well. Scholars believe there were more than 100 gospels written before the end of the first century. The catholic church of 325AD cleaned up anything thatdidn't agree with the newly formed Church of Rome. It's historic in fact.

What is your point?

ALL of them were written after Jesus' death.

We don't even know if he said ANYTHING IN THEM.

He DID NOT teach trinity, etc.

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[Phantasman]

Good grief - I showed the verses saying he was dedicated to the Temple, - served in the Temple, - and wore the Ephod of the Priest while ministering at the Temple.

1Sa 2:18 But Samuel ministered before YHVH, being a child, girded with a linen ephod.

1Sa 3:1 And the child Samuel ministered unto YHVH before Eli. And the word of YHVH was precious in those days; there was no open vision.

Psa 99:5 Exalt ye YHVH our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.

Psa 99:6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them, that call upon his name; they called upon YHVH, and he answered them.

Psa 99:7 He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance that he gave them.

Doesn't matter if you don't like it, - obviously he was an ephod wearing Priest in the Shiloh Temple, and a Prophet.
When the veil was split in the temple, the physical temple building was no longer needed. The temple is now the body of the individual. This is where the Holy Spirit lives. This is where Jesus speaks. This is "where" God is.

Matthew:
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Luke:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

1 Corinthians:
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Christ was the first to receive the Holy Spirit of the Father while in flesh. He taught us what is was, and how to receive it.

I don't know of any orthodox Christians that believe that. They think God is in the church, or a temple.

 

[Phantasman]

What is your point?

ALL of them were written after Jesus' death.

We don't even know if he said ANYTHING IN THEM.

He DID NOT teach trinity, etc.

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Correct. The Trinity idea came from the orthodox catholic fathers, especially Tertullian, some 200 years after Christ. The Holy Spirit and Jesus are both begotten of the Father.

The Apocryphon of John best describes the Father, and why we cannot understand him. You may or may not agree.

And I asked to know it, and he said to me, "The Monad is a monarchy with nothing above it. It is he who exists as God and Father of everything, the invisible One who is above everything, who exists as incorruption, which is in the pure light into which no eye can look.

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself. He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him. He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name.

"He is immeasurable light, which is pure, holy (and) immaculate. He is ineffable, being perfect in incorruptibility. (He is) not in perfection, nor in blessedness, nor in divinity, but he is far superior. He is not corporeal nor is he incorporeal. He is neither large nor is he small. There is no way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What is his quality?', for no one can know him. He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time. For he who partakes in an aeon was prepared beforehand. Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan. For he who precedes someone does not lack, that he may receive from him. For rather, it is the latter that looks expectantly at him in his light.

"For the perfection is majestic. He is pure, immeasurable mind. He is an aeon-giving aeon. He is life-giving life. He is a blessedness-giving blessed one. He is knowledge-giving knowledge. He is goodness-giving goodness. He is mercy and redemption-giving mercy. He is grace-giving grace, not because he possesses it, but because he gives the immeasurable, incomprehensible light.

The 3 are Father, Mother and Son. We can only know the latter two.

 

[Ingledsva]

A God who commands "thou shalt not murder" yet:

1 Samuel:
And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.

The Father is not a murderer. Even when his only son was slain.

John:
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Paul saw it:
Galatians:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Paul dropped the teachings of men (OT and even the disciples) to teach what was revealed by the Holy Spirit.

The difference between Spirit and flesh.

Why do you keep throwing out Red-Herrings? What does YHVH murdering, or not, have to do with our discussion?

There is no evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh.

Satan is a servant of YHVH doing his job of testing, by putting obstacles in your path to see how you react. According to Tanakh verses - If found wanting he becomes YHVH's prosecuting attorney - accusing you before YHVH.

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of YHVH, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Psa 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

In Tanakh He tests Job for YHVH.

In the NT He tests Jesus before he starts his ministry.

As for Paul, - he never met Jesus. He claims a vision.

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[SSBGoku]

Remember the Gospels and Acts were composed AFTER Paul's letters.

Gerd Lüdemann:
"Not once does Paul refer to Jesus as a teacher, to his words as teaching, or to [any] Christians as disciples."

"Moreover, when Paul himself summarizes the content of his missionary preaching in Corinth (1 Cor. 2.1-2; 15.3-5), there is no hint that a narration of Jesus’ earthly life or a report of his earthly teachings was an essential part of it. . . . In the letter to the Romans, which cannot presuppose the apostle’s missionary preaching and in which he attempts to summarize its main points, we find not a single direct citation of Jesus’ teaching."

According to Richard Carrier, Paul's letters indicate that Cephas etc. only knew Jesus from DREAMS, based on the Old Testament scriptures.

1 Cor. 15.:

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

The Scriptures Paul is referring to here are:

Septuagint version of Zechariah 3 and 6 gives the exact Greek name of Jesus, describing him as confronting Satan, being crowned king in heaven, called "the man named 'Rising'" who is said to rise from his place below, building up God’s house, given supreme authority over God’s domain and ending all sins in a single day.

Daniel 9 describes a messiah dying before the end of the world.

Isaiah 52-53 describes the cleansing of the world's sins by the death of a servant.

 

[Phantasman]

Why do you keep throwing out Red-Herrings? What does YHVH murdering, or not, have to do with our discussion?

There is no evil autonomous Satan in Tanakh.

Satan is a servant of YHVH doing his job of testing, by putting obstacles in your path to see how you react. According to Tanakh verses - If found wanting he becomes YHVH's prosecuting attorney - accusing you before YHVH.

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of YHVH, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Psa 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

In Tanakh He tests Job for YHVH.

In the NT He tests Jesus before he starts his ministry.

As for Paul, - he never met Jesus. He claims a vision.

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The term Satan to Jesus was nothing more than "spiritual ignorance", which the Demiurge is. Peter spoke and Jesus called him "spiritually ignorant" when he called him Satan. Satan means adversary (to truth).

Ignorance (of the Father's love) is the root of all evil. To slay man is not love.
John:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To love the world is not to destroy it, but to save it. Man chooses to accept the gift or deny it. Denying it, man dies on his own. Perfect love does not seek vengeance, nor does it feel jealousy, as does the OT books say of God. To understand perfect "grace" is to understand the teachings of the Son who spoke for the true God. Love your enemy, not kill them. For they are under the influence of ignorance and the father of it.

1 John 4:
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

The father the Jews adopted killed Jesus. Stoned Stephen. Killed the disciples. Hunted the Christians.

We each choose what is real to us, and follow the path of promises in faith and in hope.

Without the books that continued spiritual understanding, the Gospel is a small tree in the forest of error, ignorance (speaking of the Bible books). The Gospel of Philip says it best:

As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.

Gnosis is spiritual knowledge. Not as the Jews received, and died. This IS the "truth", from the source of truth.

John:
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

We each choose who's bread (knowledge) to eat. Christ said to eat his body and drink his blood. And the mystery perplexes the ignorant. They drink wine and eat wafers as their "communion". To commune with God is spiritual, not physical (fleshly rituals).

Philip again says:
Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing.

The Jews that died before Christ were saved when Christ went to Hades (grave) and saved them after he was crucified. Until then, those before Christ just died, and slept until Christ saved those who recognized him. They couldn't be saved by their God. Because only Christ can save man.

The veil is strong. Knowledge is the key.

 

[Ingledsva]

The term Satan to Jesus was nothing more than "spiritual ignorance", which the Demiurge is. Peter spoke and Jesus called him "spiritually ignorant" when he called him Satan. Satan means adversary (to truth).

....

Again - the majority of your new post has no meaning to our discussion.

Satan does NOT mean "adversary (to truth)." It does mean adversary, - which can concern truth.

Obviously the word Satan, can mean something like "spiritual ignorance.," such as with obstacle, snare, stumbling block, etc.

For instance - Mat 16:23 (with the two preceding verses for clarity) is usually translated as -

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to berate/tax upon him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

And mine -

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, obstacle/impediment: thou art an stumbling block/snare for me: for your sentiments are not those of God, but those of men.

Peter's concern for Jesus was a stumbling block/snare that he had to overcome to complete his mission.

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[Phantasman]

Again - the majority of your new post has no meaning to our discussion.

Satan does NOT mean "adversary (to truth)." It does mean adversary, - which can concern truth.

Obviously the word Satan, can mean something like "spiritual ignorance.," such as with obstacle, snare, stumbling block, etc.

For instance - Mat 16:23 (with the two preceding verses for clarity) is usually translated as -

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to berate/tax upon him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

And mine -

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, obstacle/impediment: thou art an stumbling block/snare for me: for your sentiments are not those of God, but those of men.

Peter's concern for Jesus was a stumbling block/snare that he had to overcome to complete his mission.

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To me, the words you used is still associated as "ignorance" and "error", which is what the Demiurge is. As the verse ends, Jesus still projects the spirit to flesh analogy. God/spirit, men/flesh.

As I've said,........perspective.

What I post has a lot of meaning to me, and maybe someone else reading. Maybe just not to you. That's OK though. Debate is healthy, and I enjoy a civil discussion, more with "heathens" than orthodox. They are more open minded and usually not as obnoxious as the "saved" crowd (if I may be so bold).