jesus's death..

[gayvin]

i've been askin myself this question...and asked many of my friends this question but no one seemed to be able to answer me...i guess its a pretty dumb question but..

i was thinkin..
wouldnt anyone have died on that cross to get rid of sin?...why is it so special when jesus did it...if gods idea was to flood the earth or cause a disaster to earth (which he proved he would) because it was overflowed with sin..wouldnt any human being go on that cross and be tortured like that just to prevent the disasters?..i am not trying to make god sound evil...i was just curious..

 

[Aqualung]

Well, nobody else volunteered...

 

[dan]

Well, I'll share a story from the Civil War that may help you understand the atonement.

A boy from the North was fighting alongside his four brothers in the Civil War. His four brothers were all killed over the course of a month or so. He was the only one left, and one night fell asleep on guard duty. As a result a surprise attack was successful in wiping out almost his entire company. He was responsible for their deaths, and was sentenced to be executed. The day before Abraham Lincoln was to sign the death warrant he received an urgent letter from an old widow. It was the boy's mother. She explained how her other four sons were killed in the war, and this boy was the only one she had left. She begged the President to spare his life - not for him, but for her sake. Hadn't she suffered enough. Lincoln promptly released the boy. The mother's suffering had (in Lincoln's eyes) been sufficient to pay the debt owed by the boy.

Christ's Atonement is the same. We are all condemned by sin, and the scriptures are claer that every man must pay for his own sins. Christ suffered more than the sum of all pain and suffering that all sin would have inflicted. It was not a crime and punishment trade. The consequences for all of our sins were not weighed out and placed on Jesus' back, HE actually suffered more. He then went to the Father and asked He be granted the souls of all those who would follow Him as a token of mercy. God the Father had mercy on Christ (as Lincoln had mercy on the widow) and released us from our debt for Him. It is not for us, it is for Christ. His suffering was sufficient in God's eyes to cover the debt we owed. No other man could have done it because no other man could withstand the suffering He did. No other man was perfect either.

 

[Halcyon]

Well, nobody else volunteered...

Lul Aqua, i don't think Jesus volunteered! Seem to remember him being pretty damned pissed off near the end. "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"

 

[Merlin]

i've been askin myself this question...and asked many of my friends this question but no one seemed to be able to answer me...i guess its a pretty dumb question but..

i was thinkin..
wouldnt anyone have died on that cross to get rid of sin?...why is it so special when jesus did it...if gods idea was to flood the earth or cause a disaster to earth (which he proved he would) because it was overflowed with sin..wouldnt any human being go on that cross and be tortured like that just to prevent the disasters?..i am not trying to make god sound evil...i was just curious..

You are assuming that Jesus really died on the cross! There are lots of credible theories that he did not.

 

[Halcyon]

You are assuming that Jesus really died on the cross! There are lots of credible theories that he did not.

I wouldn't say credible.

The Romans were pretty good at what they did, they had protocol and method for executions such as this to ensure death occured. If someone stabs you in the lung with a dirty spear, you aren't given any medical attention and you're very weak from being pinned to a cross in the blazing sun - you're dead.

 

[TashaN]

i've been askin myself this question...and asked many of my friends this question but no one seemed to be able to answer me...i guess its a pretty dumb question but..

i was thinkin..
wouldnt anyone have died on that cross to get rid of sin?...why is it so special when jesus did it...if gods idea was to flood the earth or cause a disaster to earth (which he proved he would) because it was overflowed with sin..wouldnt any human being go on that cross and be tortured like that just to prevent the disasters?..i am not trying to make god sound evil...i was just curious..

Actually, according to the bible Jesus said: "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Was he crying asking God to not leave him and get rid of him?

What a father is that to do such a thing.

Personally, i believe that the one on the cross wasn't Jesus but one of his diciples because Jesus put his image on that person.

It's unlogic to concider dying on the cross as a miracle because there were two more guys in the same situation like him on the same time.

The real miracle is that God saved him because there is no miracle in bieng dead by some disbelievers that makes no sense to a powerful person to die this way letting the Roman and Jewish to insult him.

 

[michel]

Actually, according to the bible Jesus said: "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Was he crying asking God to not leave him and get rid of him?

What a father is that to do such a thing.

Personally, i believe that the one on the cross wasn't Jesus but one of his diciples because Jesus put his image on that person.

It's unlogic to concider dying on the cross as a miracle because there were two more guys in the same situation like him on the same time.

The real miracle is that God saved him because there is no miracle in bieng dead by some disveliever that makes no sense to a powerful person to die this way letting the Roman and Jewish to insult him.

I am not quite sure what you have been reading, The Truth (other than the qu'ran). Jesus was fully aware of what he was doing, and Whether or not you believe that Jesus Christ didn't die on the Cross doesn't even come into the discussion; he did die on the cross, and on the third day, he was resurected.

Now, If you have any evidence that says that Jesus didn't die on the cross, I would look upon that evidence with great suspicion, if I were you.

 

[dan]

Jesus did die on the cross. The spear did not pierce His lung, but His heart. This is where the blood and "water" came from. Many feel Jesus physically died of a literal broken heart, which is not uncommon. His heart could have ruptured, then His pericardium would have filled with blood, and it would have seperated. The plasma would have appeared as water, everything else as blood. It happens still today.

Jesus did not doubt the Father. Allow me to offer a couple of different views on exacly what He did say. Hang on. I'm gonna have to continue this later.

 

[Aqualung]

Lul Aqua, i don't think Jesus volunteered! Seem to remember him being pretty damned pissed off near the end. "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"

He volunteered in our premortal existence, before the world was made. He was the only one who volunteered to save us under God's direction.

 

[michel]

He volunteered in our premortal existence, before the world was made. He was the only one who volunteered to save us under God's direction.

Quite right.

 

[Halcyon]

He volunteered in our premortal existence, before the world was made. He was the only one who volunteered to save us under God's direction.

And there's me thinking he did everything he could to avoid being captured by the romans, going into hiding only to have Judas turn him in in exchange for gold.
Seems to me a heck of a lot of imaginative extrapolation has been applied to this man's actions and teachings.

 

[dan]

OK, here's some information on what it was Jesus said on the cross.

Matthew says "Eli" while Mark says "Eloi". "Eloi" is Aramaic, "Eli" is Hebrew. The problem lies with the next two words, lama sabachtani. This is presumed to be a quote of Psalms 22 which reads Eli, Eli, lama azaftani in Hebrew, and Eloi, Eloi, metoel mah sabachtani in Aramaic. Some contend that the phrase recorded in our Bible is an incomplete mixture of both languages. Most believe the writers did not speak Hebrew (very few Jews did at this time) and kinda jumbled their understanding of it with how they knew the verse to read in Aramaic. The Psalm evidently quoted here ends with the author expressing faith in the Lord.

It is asserted by some that this phrase could be in reference to an Egyptian ritual that uses the same words. The ritual deals with the putting to death of the carnal and the resurrecting of the spiritual. In this ritual the words mean: "My God, my God, how thou dost glorify me!" I don't feel this is an accurate exposition on the phrase in question.

The Aramaic Pe****ta insists that the text actually should be translated: "My God, my God, for this purpose was I spared. This was my destiny." According to the Pe****ta the word sabachthani comes from the root shbq, which means "to keep, to reserve, or to have left over." Lama is from the Aramaic word lmana, which is an indicator of the question, "for what purpose?" This indicator would render the question a rhetorical one, or a figure of speech - erotesis.

Whatever theory you subscribe to, you should learn to reserve your judgment until a conclusion can be reached. In most of these circumstances a conclusion can't be reached.

Please see the following sites:

http://www.redbay.com/ekklesia/triumph.htm

http://www.lcc.cc/tlc/lxvii1/eli.htm

http://www.lcc.cc/tlc/lxvii2/elieli.htm

http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T3025

 

[angellous_evangellous]

i've been askin myself this question...and asked many of my friends this question but no one seemed to be able to answer me...i guess its a pretty dumb question but..

i was thinkin..
wouldnt anyone have died on that cross to get rid of sin?...why is it so special when jesus did it...if gods idea was to flood the earth or cause a disaster to earth (which he proved he would) because it was overflowed with sin..wouldnt any human being go on that cross and be tortured like that just to prevent the disasters?..i am not trying to make god sound evil...i was just curious..

It is a big deal for Jesus to die on the cross because in the orthodox Christian view, Jesus is the One and Only God. According to the orthodox Christian witness, God was incarnated, becoming Jesus, and was obedient to the will of God to die for the sins of all humans as a human being, and as God. It is tough to wrap one's mind around the whole God-man-Jesus thing, but that is why it is such a big deal.

 

[Merlin]

Jesus did die on the cross. The spear did not pierce His lung, but His heart. This is where the blood and "water" came from. Many feel Jesus physically died of a literal broken heart, which is not uncommon. His heart could have ruptured, then His pericardium would have filled with blood, and it would have seperated. The plasma would have appeared as water, everything else as blood. It happens still today.

Jesus did not doubt the Father. Allow me to offer a couple of different views on exacly what He did say. Hang on. I'm gonna have to continue this later.

Where does it say the spear stabbed His heart, or even his lung?

 

[Merlin]

OK, here's some information on what it was Jesus said on the cross.

Matthew says "Eli" while Mark says "Eloi". "Eloi" is Aramaic, "Eli" is Hebrew. The problem lies with the next two words, lama sabachtani. This is presumed to be a quote of Psalms 22 which reads Eli, Eli, lama azaftani in Hebrew, and Eloi, Eloi, metoel mah sabachtani in Aramaic. Some contend that the phrase recorded in our Bible is an incomplete mixture of both languages. Most believe the writers did not speak Hebrew (very few Jews did at this time) and kinda jumbled their understanding of it with how they knew the verse to read in Aramaic. The Psalm evidently quoted here ends with the author expressing faith in the Lord.

It is asserted by some that this phrase could be in reference to an Egyptian ritual that uses the same words. The ritual deals with the putting to death of the carnal and the resurrecting of the spiritual. In this ritual the words mean: "My God, my God, how thou dost glorify me!" I don't feel this is an accurate exposition on the phrase in question.

The Aramaic Pe****ta insists that the text actually should be translated: "My God, my God, for this purpose was I spared. This was my destiny." According to the Pe****ta the word sabachthani comes from the root shbq, which means "to keep, to reserve, or to have left over." Lama is from the Aramaic word lmana, which is an indicator of the question, "for what purpose?" This indicator would render the question a rhetorical one, or a figure of speech - erotesis.

Whatever theory you subscribe to, you should learn to reserve your judgment until a conclusion can be reached. In most of these circumstances a conclusion can't be reached.

Please see the following sites:

http://www.redbay.com/ekklesia/triumph.htm

http://www.lcc.cc/tlc/lxvii1/eli.htm

http://www.lcc.cc/tlc/lxvii2/elieli.htm

[url="http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T3025"]http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T3025[/url]

AS Matthew wrote it down 3 generations later, and never met anyone who was there, all this is just imaginitive speculation to make it read whatever fits people belief systems.

How long did He take to die?

 

[dan]

Where does it say the spear stabbed His heart, or even his lung?

His pericardium/heart is the only place from which water and blood could have flowed.

 

[dan]

AS Matthew wrote it down 3 generations later, and never met anyone who was there, all this is just imaginitive speculation to make it read whatever fits people belief systems.

How long did He take to die?

Around six hours. See this site to find out more about when the Gospels were written.

http://www.geocities.com/airspirit3/newtestamentcanon.html

 

[TashaN]

I am not quite sure what you have been reading, The Truth (other than the qu'ran). Jesus was fully aware of what he was doing, and Whether or not you believe that Jesus Christ didn't die on the Cross doesn't even come into the discussion; he did die on the cross, and on the third day, he was resurected.

Now, If you have any evidence that says that Jesus didn't die on the cross, I would look upon that evidence with great suspicion, if I were you.

I guess i'll start proving for you that he wasn't resurected in the third day then after that i'll prove to you that the one on the cross wasn't him.

Don't worry i'll not use Quran but only the bible.

 

[Scott1]

I guess i'll start proving for you that he wasn't resurected in the third day then after that i'll prove to you that the one on the cross wasn't him.

Don't worry i'll not use Quran but only the bible.

I can't wait for this.:biglaugh: