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Jewish Law

Uldin

New Member
Greetings everyone,

I was just wondering if you could enlighten me on the following subject:

Was the Jewish Law as described in the Pentateuch meant to be fulfilled in the strictest sense? In other words, did the Jews really kill kids who cursed their parents?
Or was the Law just there to give Man consience of his sinful condition, and of what goes against God's will, as said by Paul in Galatians 3: 19 to 4: 5, and Jesus when he says that Moses rescues the woman caught in adultery and states that Moses gave laws on divorce to the Jews because of their "hardened hearts"?

Thanks for your help :)
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
You have to keep in mind that the Torah is not the end of Jewish law. Jewish law is comprised of both the written law (Torah) and oral law (Talmud). Both have been in use since the beginning, and both are needed to examine the law.

And no, it wasn't always followed in the strictest sense. Violations that often called for death or dismemberment (such as an eye for eye) were understood to mean that the value of the damages must be paid. Stern words and severe punishments were also used to describe the seriousness of the situation and the weight that a violation carried.


But I'm sure many people will give a much different answer.
I had never heard of the Talmud or rabbinical commentaries until I started to seriously study Judaism; they're concepts that didn't make it into modern Christianity very well.
 

Uldin

New Member
Thanks, it reassures me to know that it was not in God's will to kill so many people. Though this doesn't concern you, also understand why Jesus protected the woman from beign stoned.
Peace :)
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
What Tarheeler said is quite correct.

Much of the Written Torah (the commandments in the Pentateuch) was not intended to be understood or practiced as literally written; and by the same token, many texts in the rest of the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible), which Christianity takes as commandments or prophecies or similar dicta, Judaism has never read in those ways.

The Written Torah (we believe) was accompanied by the Oral Torah, which, though originally just that (oral) became increasingly written down over the ages. The core of the Oral Torah is the Talmud, though we also consider pretty much all other Rabbinic text to be included in Oral Torah to one degree or another. In its widest sense, Oral Torah includes any and all midrashim (exegetical parables), homiletic literature, commentary, halakhic responsa (legal writings), Kabbalah (mysticism), and philosophy, from the making of the covenant, through today, and for all the generations of the Jewish People to come.

In any case, there is some question about whether even Israelite Judaism would have looked much like a strict interpretation of the Written Torah. Rabbinic Judaism certainly has never looked anything like it, nor do we believe it was ever intended to be so, either by God or by our ancestors.
 

Uldin

New Member
Thanks Levite :)
In that case, would it be accurate to state that the Pharisees were what we call fanatics, or extremists, since they proned a strict application of the Mosaic Law? Forgive me if this sounds insulting, but could we parallel them to the Taliban for the Muslims?
Another question: when Leviticus talks about "lying with another man as with a woman", does it mean homosexuality or just anal sex?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
In that case, would it be accurate to state that the Pharisees were what we call fanatics, or extremists, since they proned a strict application of the Mosaic Law? Forgive me if this sounds insulting, but could we parallel them to the Taliban for the Muslims?

Actually, very much the opposite. The Perushim (Pharisees) were the first generations of the Rabbis of the Talmud. They were manifestly not in favor of a literal and strict application of Mosaic Law, because their entire enterprise was built upon the formalization and setting down of the Oral Torah, the extension of the concept that Torah has infinite levels and layers of meaning, and the premise that God gave to the Jewish People the authority to interpret and reinterpret the Torah. Their interpretations were often radically different from a literal reading of the Written Torah, and quite frequently, their understanding of the intent of the Written Torah calls for much less harsh procedures and penalties than a literal and strict reading of the text might imply. For example, as Tarheeler pointed out, they were the ones who taught that the lex talionis (an eye for an eye, etc.) was not intended ever to be taken literally, but always reflected compensation by means of legal damages awarded; or that the death penalty could only be applied in cases where a minimum of two eyewitnesses had verbally warned the perpetrator that his actions would result in capital punishment, and the perpetrator had acknowledged the warning prior to committing the act-- plus a capital verdict had to be the result of
precisely one fewer than the full sitting court of rabbinic judges (twenty-three was the minimum number of judges in a capital case, and if no verdict was immediately apparent, they added judges two by two until a maximum total of seventy-one judges)-- if two or more judges refused to find the defendant guilty, he was set free, and if the verdict was unanimous, they presumed that the court had been corrupted, because no one could not have at least one person sympathize with their cause unless the panel of judges had been tampered with.

So actually, although they were far more concern with expanding the details and minutiae of the law than were Israelite Jews, they were far more lenient and flexible in its application than anything approaching a "Taliban-style" radical movement.

If any of the major non-Rabbinic movements at that time were closer to radical literalism, it would have been the Tzedokim (Saduccees), who rejected the Oral Torah, and interpreted the Written Torah much more strictly than did the Perushim. Although even they were probably not as radical and violent as the Taliban.

Another question: when Leviticus talks about "lying with another man as with a woman", does it mean homosexuality or just anal sex?

Well, that is subject to interpretation. If you ask most Orthodox Jews today, they will tell you it means homosexuality entirely. If you ask Conservative Jews, a few will tell you in means homosexuality entirely, more will tell you it means just anal sex, and some will tell you it could not mean either. It has been suggested that perhaps it only meant male on male rape, or homosexual acts in the context of idolatrous rituals, or the acquisition of one man by another by means of intercourse (wives, concubines, and female slaves were sometimes acquired by intercourse in those days). Some Jewish gay scholars have proposed that it perhaps reflects only a difference of emotional context. Any and all of which are potentially acceptable readings of the verse.

The Conservative movement is still wrestling with the interpretation of that verse in halakhah (Jewish Law), though their interpretations are steadily becoming more lenient and gay-friendly. The Orthodox communities are divided, with the center and right wing majority interpreting the verse very strictly, with unfortunate results for gay Jews; but a small minority in the Modern Orthodox movement are wrestling with the verse and trying to balance what they perceive as Orthodox interpretation with the elimination of homophobia and the acceptance of gay Jews.
 
Greetings everyone,

I was just wondering if you could enlighten me on the following subject:

Was the Jewish Law as described in the Pentateuch meant to be fulfilled in the strictest sense? In other words, did the Jews really kill kids who cursed their parents?
Or was the Law just there to give Man consience of his sinful condition, and of what goes against God's will, as said by Paul in Galatians 3: 19 to 4: 5, and Jesus when he says that Moses rescues the woman caught in adultery and states that Moses gave laws on divorce to the Jews because of their "hardened hearts"?

Thanks for your help :)

Assuming that it came from God I would have to say yes, it is still to be followed, probably with the exception of the animal sacrifices because of the finished work of Christ. Grace comes with repentance and repentance is that man turns away from his sins and follows God's way.

There were capital offenses and I can see the value of them because it would definitely root out all of the evil. But in order to be convicted of a capital offense, two people would have had to see the alleged criminal do the deed,
they would testify against him, and then be the first to throw the stones in the execution. If they were caught lying, then they got the punishment instead. If this system were in place in the United States, you wouldn't have so many innocent people in prison. The biblical system of law is much better than what we have now. The threat of capital punishment would deter most people.
 
Actually, very much the opposite. The Perushim (Pharisees) were the first generations of the Rabbis of the Talmud. They were manifestly not in favor of a literal and strict application of Mosaic Law, because their entire enterprise was built upon the formalization and setting down of the Oral Torah, the extension of the concept that Torah has infinite levels and layers of meaning, and the premise that God gave to the Jewish People the authority to interpret and reinterpret the Torah. Their interpretations were often radically different from a literal reading of the Written Torah, and quite frequently, their understanding of the intent of the Written Torah calls for much less harsh procedures and penalties than a literal and strict reading of the text might imply. For example, as Tarheeler pointed out, they were the ones who taught that the lex talionis (an eye for an eye, etc.) was not intended ever to be taken literally, but always reflected compensation by means of legal damages awarded; or that the death penalty could only be applied in cases where a minimum of two eyewitnesses had verbally warned the perpetrator that his actions would result in capital punishment, and the perpetrator had acknowledged the warning prior to committing the act-- plus a capital verdict had to be the result of
precisely one fewer than the full sitting court of rabbinic judges (twenty-three was the minimum number of judges in a capital case, and if no verdict was immediately apparent, they added judges two by two until a maximum total of seventy-one judges)-- if two or more judges refused to find the defendant guilty, he was set free, and if the verdict was unanimous, they presumed that the court had been corrupted, because no one could not have at least one person sympathize with their cause unless the panel of judges had been tampered with.

So actually, although they were far more concern with expanding the details and minutiae of the law than were Israelite Jews, they were far more lenient and flexible in its application than anything approaching a "Taliban-style" radical movement.

If any of the major non-Rabbinic movements at that time were closer to radical literalism, it would have been the Tzedokim (Saduccees), who rejected the Oral Torah, and interpreted the Written Torah much more strictly than did the Perushim. Although even they were probably not as radical and violent as the Taliban.



Well, that is subject to interpretation. If you ask most Orthodox Jews today, they will tell you it means homosexuality entirely. If you ask Conservative Jews, a few will tell you in means homosexuality entirely, more will tell you it means just anal sex, and some will tell you it could not mean either. It has been suggested that perhaps it only meant male on male rape, or homosexual acts in the context of idolatrous rituals, or the acquisition of one man by another by means of intercourse (wives, concubines, and female slaves were sometimes acquired by intercourse in those days). Some Jewish gay scholars have proposed that it perhaps reflects only a difference of emotional context. Any and all of which are potentially acceptable readings of the verse.

The Conservative movement is still wrestling with the interpretation of that verse in halakhah (Jewish Law), though their interpretations are steadily becoming more lenient and gay-friendly. The Orthodox communities are divided, with the center and right wing majority interpreting the verse very strictly, with unfortunate results for gay Jews; but a small minority in the Modern Orthodox movement are wrestling with the verse and trying to balance what they perceive as Orthodox interpretation with the elimination of homophobia and the acceptance of gay Jews.

It is obvious that it teaches against homosexuality. It is confirmed in nature.
The written word in this instance confirms natural law.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Thanks Levite :)
In that case, would it be accurate to state that the Pharisees were what we call fanatics, or extremists, since they proned a strict application of the Mosaic Law? Forgive me if this sounds insulting, but could we parallel them to the Taliban for the Muslims?
Sounds insulting?
It is insulting, or rather an irrelevant question in an on line or other discourse. you are trying to revisionize history as it were during the 1st century in the Judean province. to which ever Christian dogma you have been confomed to, and which handicaps you from picking up a book and read about that period of history, and about this specific Jewish group.
 
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Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
It is obvious that it teaches against homosexuality. It is confirmed in nature.
The written word in this instance confirms natural law.

No it isn't obvious it teaches against homosexuality. You don't understand how Jews view the Torah at all. The Torah contains things written to the nation back then, for that time and circumstance, and intepretations can evolve with time.

As for what nature shows, and what you believe to be confirmed in nature:

List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
It is obvious that it teaches against homosexuality. It is confirmed in nature.
The written word in this instance confirms natural law.

First of all, such a thing is by no means written in nature, otherwise nobody would be born with any interest in the same sex; yet that does happen-- it happens roughly ten percent of the time. And, as Rambam (Rabbi Moses Maimonides) said, if one is interpreting Torah, and one's interpretation opposes the way that we know the world to work based on natural philosophy (i.e., science), then one's interpretation of Torah must be wrong, because Torah would never contradict the evidence of the universe as God has created it.

Second of all, nothing is "obvious" about interpreting Torah. Jewish text-- because regardless of whether there was divine inspiration or not, we are talking about texts written by Jews, for Jews, in the Jewish language, designed for use with Jewish methods of interpretation and understanding-- is complex, layered, nuanced, and capable of almost infinite interpretation and reinterpretation. That is why it's impossible to correctly understand the Written Torah without the Oral Torah: not only is the one who tries to do so ignorant of the traditional interpretations of verses, but is also ignorant of the mechanisms by which the text may or may not be parsed, compared, interpreted, and reinterpreted. It was a dearly-held maxim of the Rabbis of the Talmud that the one who follows the Written Torah without understanding and using the Oral Torah has left the path of wisdom, and will surely violate more commandments than he keeps.
 
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