jewish

[BilliardsBall]

There was also a disapora after the first temple, because of a rejection of God, well before Jesus was born, so stating that as the cause and effect makes no sense.

So you have redefined "prince of peace" and your critique of Hezekiah is no longer relevant.

There was a diaspora to one empire--not the prophesied diaspora that was to be to many nations, with persecution in those nations, with a return to the land, etc., etc.

Jesus is Prince of Peace to two billion persons. The prophecies fulfilled including prophecies that the Jewish Messiah's Name would be great among the nations. Hundreds of other clear prophecies have been fulfilled from Tanakh.

Isaiah 6: He said, "Go and tell this people: "`Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving. ' Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.

 

[BilliardsBall]

From Wikipedia: Gospel of Luke:

Most modern scholars agree that the main sources used for Luke were a), the Gospel of Mark, b), a hypothetical sayings collection called the Q source, and c), material found in no other gospels, often referred to as the L (for Luke) source.[7] The author is anonymous;[8] the traditional view that it was Luke the Evangelist, the companion of Paul, is still occasionally put forward, but the scholarly consensus emphasises the many contradictions between Acts and the authentic Pauline letters.[9][10] The most probable date for its composition is around AD 80–110, and there is evidence that it was still being revised well into the 2nd century.[11]​

So, were you being deceitful or sloppy?

Neither. I have a Bachelor's of Religion including NT studies from a secular university. Most scholars find Luke was writting early.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yet again: Just who are these millions of atheists who see Jesus as Isaiah's Prince of Peace?

Huh?!

Billions of people see Jesus as Prince of Peace, one of hundreds of clear OT prophecies.

You mock what you do not/will not understand.Mark 4: so that, “’they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

 

[BilliardsBall]

The Gospel According to Luke, written in roughly 85 C.E. (± five to ten years)
Historical Context for Luke/John by Unknown | The Core Curriculum.

In other words, decades after the events, quite long enough for legend and myth to slip into the account. Certainly after the destruction of the temple.

1) The dating you've chosen, from among alternatives from reputable scholars, is speculative. Early AND late date renderings are speculation.

2) Let's go instead with your assumptions--someone who loved Jesus Christ and saw Him do miracles and rise from the dead would be unable to tell the story accurately, years or decades later, and myth and legend would slip into the account.

3) If 2) is true, how can you or I trust ANYTHING in Tanakh or ANYTHING taken from other ancient Jewish sources? You can't have it both ways!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Neither. I have a Bachelor's of Religion including NT studies from a secular university. Most scholars find Luke was writting early.

Evidence?

 

[rosends]

There was a diaspora to one empire--not the prophesied diaspora that was to be to many nations, with persecution in those nations, with a return to the land, etc., etc.

then you don't know enough about the exile after the destruction of the first temple.

Jesus is Prince of Peace to two billion persons. The prophecies fulfilled including prophecies that the Jewish Messiah's Name would be great among the nations. Hundreds of other clear prophecies have been fulfilled from Tanakh.

1. when you have no definition of either prince or peace, other than what you have reverse engineered, then you can have a prince of peace to 2 trillion people and it still won't make sense
2. The name of the Jewish messiah will be great among the nations. The fact that billions DON'T consider Jesus to be great is the proof that he wasn't the Jewish messiah. Isaiah 11:10 doesn't say "half the nations."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Huh?!

Billions of people see Jesus as Prince of Peace, one of hundreds of clear OT prophecies.

Which word did you not understand?

Yet again: Just who are these millions of atheists who see Jesus as Isaiah's Prince of Peace?

What a lovely delusion ...

• Hey, Fred, do you believe in God?
• Of course not, Wilbur! You know I'm an atheist, one of literally millions.
• Well, then, who do you think Isaiah was talking about in Isaiah 9:6?
• We all know that the guy was talking about Jesus back in the 8th century BCE.

Seriously?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

1) The dating you've chosen, from among alternatives from reputable scholars, is speculative. Early AND late date renderings are speculation.

2) Let's go instead with your assumptions--someone who loved Jesus Christ and saw Him do miracles and rise from the dead would be unable to tell the story accurately, years or decades later, and myth and legend would slip into the account.

3) If 2) is true, how can you or I trust ANYTHING in Tanakh or ANYTHING taken from other ancient Jewish sources? You can't have it both ways!

The difference is that I don't claim the Tanach is always historical. My Jewish faith does not depend on Adam and Eve being historical people. The question is not "Did this really happen," but rather "what lesson does this teach. This is quite different from the Christian claims that for example, Jesus really did rise from the dead.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The difference is that I don't claim the Tanach is always historical.

As my Rabbi suggested at the last Torah Study (on Noach): "We shouldn't be as concrete as 4th graders."

 

[BilliardsBall]

Which word did you not understand?

Yet again: Just who are these millions of atheists who see Jesus as Isaiah's Prince of Peace?

What a lovely delusion ...

• Hey, Fred, do you believe in God?
• Of course not, Wilbur! You know I'm an atheist, one of literally millions.
• Well, then, who do you think Isaiah was talking about in Isaiah 9:6?
• We all know that the guy was talking about Jesus back in the 8th century BCE.

Seriously?

Huh? 2.3 Billion people identify as Christian, what does that have to with atheists who know that billions of Christian see Jesus as Isaiah's Prince of Peace?

 

[BilliardsBall]

then you don't know enough about the exile after the destruction of the first temple.

1. when you have no definition of either prince or peace, other than what you have reverse engineered, then you can have a prince of peace to 2 trillion people and it still won't make sense
2. The name of the Jewish messiah will be great among the nations. The fact that billions DON'T consider Jesus to be great is the proof that he wasn't the Jewish messiah. Isaiah 11:10 doesn't say "half the nations."

You don't know how billions of Gentiles seek Jesus (Isaiah 11:10)? You cherry pick with every Tanakh quote. It's exhausting.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The difference is that I don't claim the Tanach is always historical. My Jewish faith does not depend on Adam and Eve being historical people. The question is not "Did this really happen," but rather "what lesson does this teach. This is quite different from the Christian claims that for example, Jesus really did rise from the dead.

I understand, as soon as you move from allegory to literalism or "God's Word flexes" to "God's Word is immutable"--that is, as you accept Tanakh as inspired truth--you would naturally see Jesus as Messiah.

 

[rosends]

You don't know how billions of Gentiles seek Jesus (Isaiah 11:10)? You cherry pick with every Tanakh quote. It's exhausting.

You don't know that billions DO seek Jesus (and you should reread the verse...the people in it don't seek anyone). You are inventing a reality to justify the failure of your quotes. It's amusing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Huh? 2.3 Billion people identify as Christian, what does that have to with atheists who know that billions of Christian see Jesus as Isaiah's Prince of Peace?

Let's try this again, annd I need you to think really, really hard.

Your wrote:

It's not denigration--it's pointing to the fact that 2.3 Billion people plus those who know them--even millions of atheists--see JESUS has fulfilled the prophecy as surely as the prophecies were fulfilled that Messiah would be known to the nations, not just Israel!

I've highlight the claim in question -- your claim -- since you seem so conveniently unclear.

So let me ask again:

Who were these "millions of atheists" who "see Jesus has fulfilled the prophecy"? Where is your evidence?

If I misunderstood you claim, clarify it for us, but stop dancing around the question. It's disingenuous and serves only to discredit whatever argument you thing you're making.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I understand, as soon as you move from allegory to literalism or "God's Word flexes" to "God's Word is immutable"--that is, as you accept Tanakh as inspired truth--you would naturally see Jesus as Messiah.

Not true. Although Judaism does not depend upon literalism, there are plenty of Jews who take it literally, and they don't become Christians, because Jesus is not in the Tanakh.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Huh? 2.3 Billion people identify as Christian, what does that have to with atheists who know that billions of Christian see Jesus as Isaiah's Prince of Peace?

Knowing that Christians interpret the verse as being messianic is not the same as knowing the verse is messianic. So what is your point?

 

[Flankerl]

I am sure King Hezekiah was really glad when the Prophet Isaiah answered his plea for God in some vague prophecy of some dude being born +700 years into the future regarding the Assyrian destruction of Samaria and invasion of Judah.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
Should be glad Isaiah didn't go off about Musk buying Twitter or Xi Jinping uprooting convention at the last National Congress of the CCP.

 

[rosends]

I am sure King Hezekiah was really glad when the Prophet Isaiah answered his plea for God in some vague prophecy of some dude being born +700 years into the future regarding the Assyrian destruction of Samaria and invasion of Judah.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
Should be glad Isaiah didn't go off about Musk buying Twitter.

So there I was, this past Sunday, killing time by flipping through the channels and I stumbled upon a Christian program aimed at Jews. It happened to be discussing this prophecy and the guy basically had to say "sure, it was about Hezekiah, but it was a typological prophecy that could be fulfilled lots of times in different ways" so that he could include Jesus in the equation. It was the most equivocation I have ever seen. Total capitualition to the Jewish understanding but, nevertheless, insisting that it could also apply to other stuff. I almost felt sorry for him, having to take such a wishy washy position, an approach to obviously a retcon. I changed the channel.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You don't know that billions DO seek Jesus (and you should reread the verse...the people in it don't seek anyone). You are inventing a reality to justify the failure of your quotes. It's amusing.

You are goalpost shifting--although I would question whether the nations are seeking Hezekiah!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Let's try this again, annd I need you to think really, really hard.

Your wrote:

​

I've highlight the claim in question -- your claim -- since you seem so conveniently unclear.

So let me ask again:

Who were these "millions of atheists" who "see Jesus has fulfilled the prophecy"? Where is your evidence?

If I misunderstood you claim, clarify it for us, but stop dancing around the question. It's disingenuous and serves only to discredit whatever argument you thing you're making.

Thanks for the correction. Millions of atheists--if asked on the street as individuals--who is known as the Prince of Peace--would say "Jesus Christ" and not "King Hezekiah". The prophecy is fulfilled.