dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
the point is: Jesus was attempting to change Judaism. As you said, "messing with other's religion".
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jewish
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stvdv
Veteran Member
Here the context is crucial
The Pharisees started "pointing fingers" at the Diciples. Then Jesus set them straight
Good lesson for Pharisees to "not judge"
And verse 6 is perfect if seen in the context of verse 7 and verse 1. The Pharisees were wrong and needed to be corrected. That's all. Jesus is NOT messing, the Pharisees were the ones messing. First things first
IF Pharisees play with fire (and Jesus is a huge fire) THEN they should not complain when getting burned in the process. IF they wouldn't have pointed fingers THEN Jesus wouldn't have needed to correct
Matthew 12:
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”3Jesus replied, “Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread,a which was not lawful for them to eat, but only for the priests.5Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6But I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.7If only you had known the meaning of ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’b you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I disagree. The pharisee was communicating the law. Laws are there for reasons, not to be ignored. Jesus' response was to look for a loophole and exaggerate his authority; the loophole is not consistent with the spirit of the sabbath as a covenant of rest.
Besides, we are encouraged by scripture to "rebuke the wise man". Proverbs 9:8.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Well, then I agree to disagree on this one
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
You disagree that laws are for reasons and not to be ignored? Or maybe you disagree with the concept of rebuke?Well, then I agree to disagree on this one
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Hmmm .. do you not eat on the Sabbath?
Looks to me that "laws" can be taken to extreme.
..and we all know that Jesus was well-known as "King of the Jews"..
Naturally, many people wouldn't accept it. They were the authority, and not him.
G-d, Most High, gives Sovereignty to whomsoever He wills.
stvdv
Veteran Member
Jesus did not attack the Jewish Religion. He just showed that His Diciples live under a different Law of which these Pharisees were not aware (verse 7)
And of course they can rebuke a Master, and they clearly were outsmarted by the Master (well, they got a good lesson)
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I think it was the gathering that was problematic. Support for this is in the story of the manna from heaven. They told not to gather on the Sabbath.
Exodus 16:26 For six days you may gather, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, it will not be there."
Sure, but they can also be a strong uniting force among the citizens and between them and the monarch.
Well, from my reading of the NT, people believed Jesus because he was able to perform miracles. The criteria for a Jewish prophet is different. They are disqualified if they lead away from Torah law and principles.
Deuteronomy 13:1-5
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
They weren't "gathering", they were eating !
There is a difference between business, (making a living), and
eating food.
One could observe in the covid lockdowns, how quiet it was outside.
People still had to eat..
Jesus didn't come to radically change the law.
..not according to what he was reported to have said in the NT, in any case.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Sorry, the text says the were "plucking heads of grain". That's gathering. See below:
The Gospel of John quotes Jesus making a radical change:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Are you discounting a commandment from All-mighty God?
Not at all. If they were starving to death it's a commandment to transgress and live. (Leviticus 18:5, we should live by the Torah, not die by it) But that's not in the story. They weren't starving.I expect you would have been happier if they had starved to death.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No .. I just think that keeping the law can be "in spirit" or mechanical and exaggerated.
I see it in my own faith. I'm told that you must do this, and can't do that etc.
It is between me and G-d. He knows my intention.
What is the purpose of the Sabbath?
As far as I can see, it is a "day of rest" .. not for "business as usual".
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
The following threads have covered this topic in a very detailed way. It may help.
Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity
Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews
Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced
Davidic King/Mashiahh according to Torath Mosheh Sources
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
The first step in keeping the law is to do it correctly. It's like the internet. If you want to go to the right place, you have to type the address correctly. In this example, all we're given is that the disciples were gathering on the Sabbath, the Pharisee alerted Jesus to this ( note it wasn't harsh ), and Jesus' response was "other people transgress, so can we" and I'm the "Lord of the Sabbath". It's a completely inappropriate answer.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I can't argue with that.
..but I'm not convinced that there is only one interpretation.
..or the Bible is "the word of God".
I think it is comprised of various scrolls not in original form, and been revised.
The ten commandments seem reliable, as do the synoptic Gospels.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
There are two references to the King of the Jews in The Gospels; the three wise men - who weren't Jews themselves - use the title in the nativity sequence Matthew's Gospel. In John's Gospel, the King of the Jews was the motto attached to the cross Jesus died on, by Pontius Pilate; either as an act of mockery, or as justification for an execution Pilate only reluctantly consented to. The High Priests asked Pilate to remove the title, but he refused, saying "What I have written I have written." The subsequent verses reference Psalm 22, retrospectively implying that Jesus' death fulfilled a very specific prophesy. In the wider context of the Gospels, it's made clear that the Kingdom of God Jesus referred to was not of this world.
rosends
Well-Known Member
non-Jews don't know much about Judaism. They think Jews know nothing about Jesus and they see him as important and think Jews should anyway.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
rosends
Well-Known Member
If one trusts the particular sources (which may or may not be authentic or authoritative) and believes that he actually existed, then one might find importance there. I admit that his mythic importance is there even if he never was. But regardless, his importance to Judaism is in that he has inspired much death and suffering.