jewish

[muhammad_isa]

Clearly, Jesus left without doing the messiah thing.

I wonder why?

Do you think it might be because the majority weren't listening to him, and wanted him dead?
He ascended to heaven, and will return to FULFILL his role as the "Jewish Messiah".
i.e. will liberate Jerusalem from falsehood

..the whole world, in fact.

 

[Colt]

I wonder why?

Do you think it might be because the majority weren't listening to him, and wanted him dead?
He ascended to heaven, and will return to FULFILL his role as the "Jewish Messiah".
i.e. will liberate Jerusalem from falsehood

..the whole world, in fact.

The Son of God and creator of this world returned to heaven where he came from as planned because the Jews held erroneous ideas of the form and function of a "Jewish Messiah".

"He came to that which was his own but they received him not". Had the Jews received the Son and his message which was the entire point of the long history of the Israelites then they would be preaching the original Gospel of the Kingdom today from the 2nd Temple.

Tragically the Jewish people lost sight of their calling and rejected their God when he stood before them.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Son of God and creator of this world returned to heaven where he came from as planned because the Jews held erroneous ideas of the form and function of a "Jewish Messiah".

I don't think so.
Is Jesus returning to this world at some point, or not?

 

[Colt]

I don't think so.
Is Jesus returning to this world at some point, or not?

Yes, he said he would return for a visit but this isn’t where he lives.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, he said he would return for a visit but this isn’t where he lives.

None of "live here" .. we all die, if you've noticed.

 

[PruePhillip]

Scripture is not so forth coming to be understood on one's own. The only way to conclude that Jesus was the pierced one of Zechariah 12:10 is to acknowledge the high 'christology' of John's Gospel.

They look on him…thrust through: another possible rendering is “they shall look to me concerning him…thrust through.” In either case, the victim is an enigmatic figure, perhaps referring to a Davidic descendant, a priestly leader, or even a true prophet. Some historical event, unknown to us from any surviving source, may underlie this reference. The Gospel of John applies this text to the piercing of Christ’s side after his death.
The mourning for the pierced victim in Jerusalem is compared to the annual ritual mourning in the plain of Megiddo over the death of the Phoenician fertility god, Hadadrimmon. According to others, Hadadrimmon is the name of a place near Megiddo, and the reference would then be to the mourning over the death of King Josiah at the hands of Pharaoh Neco in 609 B.C. i'm sure there are objections to this interpretation as well.

The argument is tortured. The 'high Christology of John' isn't to be considered.
Zechariah's prophecy accords well with what Moses, Job, Jacob, David, Isaiah et al spoke.
We differ because there's a lot at stake here.

 

[PruePhillip]

You cannot understand the bible without scholarship. It must be interpreted, and you can't look to just any tom dick or harry to get the right interpretation. We are dependent upon our scholars.

I would never depend upon scholarship to understand the bible, anymore than I would 'search the scriptures' to understand the natural world.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would never depend upon scholarship to understand the bible..

I agree. We have intelligence to use.
Nevertheless, it is important to consider what the scholars are saying.
If you just read some verses and think you know it all, you don't.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Other than that, was there anything else? His enemies seemed to pick lots of flaws with him? And Jesus wasn't publicly calling himself the Messiah, he chose the term "Son of Man" from the book of Enoch. When his apostles privately called him the Son of God or Christ, he told them not to tell anyone until he left. In fact the apostles revealed that common people all differed in their opinion about who Jesus was; "“Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”

And at his trumped-up trial he diplomatically said "as you say" when plied by Pilate.

Jesus knew he wasn't and could not be the Jewish Messiah, but he also realized that his followers wouldn't see him any other way! So he decided to let the Father guide him through the tangled mess!

It's very difficult to evaluate Jesus, because the gospel accounts are not reliable. People decades later put words into Jesus' mouth that supported their theologies, often which never happened.

I think we can say two things about Jesus:
1. He taught the Torah. When the rich man asked him how to gain eternal life, he responded by listing various commandments. He is reputed to have said, "Not a brushstroke shall pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away." To the extent that Jesus taught Torah, Jews have no problem with him.
2. He made a lot of grandiose claims about himself, if you accept the gospel accounts. He essentially put himself above other men, in his relationship to God and to the truth. We as Jews certainly do take issue with this sort of thing. But again, did he actually really say these things, or are they simply put into his mouth by people writing decades later with an agenda?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would never depend upon scholarship to understand the bible, anymore than I would 'search the scriptures' to understand the natural world.

You are saying you are more reliable than scholars. I call that arrogance.

 

[PruePhillip]

You are saying you are more reliable than scholars. I call that arrogance.

And what do you call a scholar who dismisses someone's faith?

 

[pearl]

The argument is tortured. The 'high Christology of John' isn't to be considered.

If the theology and christology of the authors of Christian Scriptures is not taken into consideration, there is no need for scholarship. By the time of John's gospel there is a complete break with Jews.

 

[PruePhillip]

If the theology and christology of the authors of Christian Scriptures is not taken into consideration, there is no need for scholarship. By the time of John's gospel there is a complete break with Jews.

I refer to the validity of the Tanakh references to the Messiah. The kingly Messiah is recognized by the Rabbis but the Redeemer Messiah is not recognized.

 

[pearl]

I refer to the validity of the Tanakh references to the Messiah. The kingly Messiah is recognized by the Rabbis but the Redeemer Messiah is not recognized.

As I understand it Jewish expectation of a messiah was not a divinity, but one who would restore Israel to its better times as the time of David.

 

[PruePhillip]

As I understand it Jewish expectation of a messiah was not a divinity, but one who would restore Israel to its better times as the time of David.

Yes, but the Tanakh authors had a lot more in mind that crowns, swords and maps.
And you get a real sense of the DIVINITY of this kingly Messiah than what a mere mortal could achieve.

 

[rosends]

Yes, but the Tanakh authors had a lot more in mind that crowns, swords and maps.
And you get a real sense of the DIVINITY of this kingly Messiah than what a mere mortal could achieve.

On the contrary, the things achieved and espoused by the king messiah will be precisely what a "mere" mortal can achieve.

 

[1213]

...Jesus shifted the priority to believing in him for the purpose of obtaining eternal life. ...

Sorry, I don't think that is true, because Jesus says:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

By what Jesus tells, people should become righteous, and God's law should be written to their heart. I think that was the idea also before Jesus was on earth.

 

[dybmh]

By what Jesus tells, people should become righteous, and God's law should be written to their heart. I think that was the idea also before Jesus was on earth.

Is there a quote from Jesus where he speaks about God's law written on the heart?

 

[Shaul]

When the real moshiach comes, and it isn't Jesus, there will be many kings and false prophets whose mouths will be shut and put to shame. Just like it says in Torah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And what do you call a scholar who dismisses someone's faith?

I call them a scholar that lacks tact.