jewish

[BilliardsBall]

Not true. Although Judaism does not depend upon literalism, there are plenty of Jews who take it literally, and they don't become Christians, because Jesus is not in the Tanakh.

These plenty of non-Messianic Jews who take it literally, have apologetics for why they do not follow Moses's laws literally!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Knowing that Christians interpret the verse as being messianic is not the same as knowing the verse is messianic. So what is your point?

One of my points was how the prophecy is clearly fulfilled with Jesus--worldwide, billions know Him as Prince of Peace, not Hezekiah.

 

[rosends]

You are goalpost shifting--although I would question whether the nations are seeking Hezekiah!

I haven't shifted anything. You have backed off from claims about "prince of peace" because I have shown your definition to be incorrect, and shown how, textually, it does apply to Hezekiah. Then you chose to move to a different verse (which I never said refers to Hezekiah) and ask how it applies to Hezekiah, because I have already shown that it can't refer to jesus.

See, instead of answering my point, you shift focus. That's a flaw.

 

[dybmh]

Thanks for the correction. Millions of atheists--if asked on the street as individuals--who is known as the Prince of Peace--would say "Jesus Christ" and not "King Hezekiah". The prophecy is fulfilled.

Respectfully, you're slicing and dicing the prophecy.

Isaiah 9:6 NIV:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
​

There are 4 titles conferred onto the target of this prophecy not just "Prince of Peace". If you go around the world asking people who is "wonderful counselor" will the consensus among atheists be your messiah? What about "Mighty God"? will millions of atheists apply this label to your guy?

Even if you're right about Prince of Peace it's only 25% of the prophecy. And this ignores the previous sentence "the governement will be on his shoulders" which is clearly not JC. At least not yet. So you can't claim this prophecy fulfilled until *all* the criteria are met. No cherry picking individual elements from the prophecy, please.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thanks for the correction. Millions of atheists--if asked on the street as individuals--who is known as the Prince of Peace--would say "Jesus Christ" and not "King Hezekiah". The prophecy is fulfilled.

I stand corrected.

I was assuming the claim was that these folks acknowledged that he was the Prince of Peace, when what you've been telling us is that, after millennia of bloody campaigns and bloodier rule, atheists would recognize "Prince of Peace" as an appellation employed primarily and forcefully by Christendom -- much as millions of informed atheists--if asked on the street as individuals--who is known as the The Great Leader--might well say "Kim Il-sung". And this despite the fact that, in both cases, the characterization is farcical on the face of it. Well done.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

These plenty of non-Messianic Jews who take it literally, have apologetics for why they do not follow Moses's laws literally!

Let's try to stay on one topic.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

One of my points was how the prophecy is clearly fulfilled with Jesus--worldwide, billions know Him as Prince of Peace, not Hezekiah.

I think you've been around forums long enough to know the name of the fallacy argumentum ad populum -- the argument from popularity. Would you like to try again?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I haven't shifted anything. You have backed off from claims about "prince of peace" because I have shown your definition to be incorrect, and shown how, textually, it does apply to Hezekiah. Then you chose to move to a different verse (which I never said refers to Hezekiah) and ask how it applies to Hezekiah, because I have already shown that it can't refer to jesus.

See, instead of answering my point, you shift focus. That's a flaw.

I don't back off the claim that billions know the Prince of Peace prophecy and that Jesus is the Prince of Peace. I don't back off the hundreds of Tanakh prophecies about Jesus. Why would I do so?

My definition is correct--so is any definition which sees and regards Jesus as the true Messiah of Tanakh.

Textually, it cannot apply to Hezekiah, since He is not Eternal, nor God, nor Mighty to defeat Assyria without Isaiah and God's intervention, etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Respectfully, you're slicing and dicing the prophecy.

Isaiah 9:6 NIV:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
​

There are 4 titles conferred onto the target of this prophecy not just "Prince of Peace". If you go around the world asking people who is "wonderful counselor" will the consensus among atheists be your messiah? What about "Mighty God"? will millions of atheists apply this label to your guy?

Even if you're right about Prince of Peace it's only 25% of the prophecy. And this ignores the previous sentence "the governement will be on his shoulders" which is clearly not JC. At least not yet. So you can't claim this prophecy fulfilled until *all* the criteria are met. No cherry picking individual elements from the prophecy, please.

Jesus is known as God to Christians, Wonderful Counselor, etc.

The prophecy says "He will be called" not "Athesis shall call Him". There are few atheists in Tanakh because people used to be smarter.

My concern is for you, YOU have heard Jesus called these names.

 

[Flankerl]

So how did it help Hezekiah to learn that some dude in 700 years is going to be born with the Assyrian invasion?

 

[rosends]

I don't back off the claim that billions know the Prince of Peace prophecy and that Jesus is the Prince of Peace. I don't back off the hundreds of Tanakh prophecies about Jesus. Why would I do so?

Sure, millions know of a prophecy. Big deal. Plenty buy in to your idea that Jesus has anything to do with peace because you reinterpret what that means when your initial definition didn't get to the conclusion you wanted. Equally big deal. You also claim that there are Tanach prophecies about Jesus. Amusing. Wrong, but hilarious so thanks for that.

My definition is correct--so is any definition which sees and regards Jesus as the true Messiah of Tanakh.

Ah, so you decide that a definition is correct because it allows you to draw the conclusion you want. If there is a problem with it, you just shift the definition so you can isolate the character you need to find. ANY definition is acceptable if it points to Jesus, even if it flies in the face of the text. Got it.

Textually, it cannot apply to Hezekiah, since He is not Eternal, nor God, nor Mighty to defeat Assyria without Isaiah and God's intervention, etc.

and since Jesus is dead, and not God and he did not defeat anyone (unless you change to a definition of "defeat" which includes "lose to") it can't apply to him. Great!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I stand corrected.

I was assuming the claim was that these folks acknowledged that he was the Prince of Peace, when what you've been telling us is that, after millennia of bloody campaigns and bloodier rule, atheists would recognize "Prince of Peace" as an appellation employed primarily and forcefully by Christendom -- much as millions of informed atheists--if asked on the street as individuals--who is known as the The Great Leader--might well say "Kim Il-sung". And this despite the fact that, in both cases, the characterization is farcical on the face of it. Well done.

I am seeing some intense handwaving. I'd love for you to handle the facts, which are:

1) MIGHTY GOD prophesied the Messiah's characteristics shall include being known as Prince of Peace

2) Billions regard Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, God, Savior, King and Prince of Peace

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think you've been around forums long enough to know the name of the fallacy argumentum ad populum -- the argument from popularity. Would you like to try again?

I do understand an ad populum. What I am working to resolve with you is different:

1) Ha Shem said Messiah will be known as Prince of Peace

2) Billions know Yeshua as Prince of Peace

Would it be easier for you if I posted 300-400 prophecies here of Jesus from Tanakh? That's the level we're dealing with now.

 

[rosends]

I do understand an ad populum. What I am working to resolve with you is different:

1) Ha Shem said Messiah will be known as Prince of Peace

2) Billions know Yeshua as Prince of Peace

Would it be easier for you if I posted 300-400 prophecies here of Jesus from Tanakh? That's the level we're dealing with now.

Question -- where in Isaiah chapter 9 do you see any mention of "messiah"? You have decided that 9:5 is about the messiah. How do you get to that if it isn't in the text?

 

[pearl]

1) MIGHTY GOD prophesied the Messiah's characteristics shall include being known as Prince of Peace

There are alternatives to Prince of Peace
This verse may reflect a coronation rather than a birth. Upon his shoulder: the reference may be to a particular act in the ritual in which a symbol of the king’s authority was placed on his shoulder.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus is known as God to Christians, Wonderful Counselor, etc.

The prophecy says "He will be called" not "Athesis shall call Him".

right, so the whole, "Atheists know he's the Prince of Peace" thing really doesn't matter to you for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

My concern is for you, YOU have heard Jesus called these names.

no need for concern God is in charge and takes good care.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Textually, it cannot apply to Hezekiah, since He is not Eternal, nor God, nor Mighty to defeat Assyria without Isaiah and God's intervention, etc.

It is quite common for Jewish names to make statements about God, without such names meaning that the person is actually God. "A wonderful counselor is the mighty God," is one such example. So is "The everlasting Father is the prince of peace."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

1) Ha Shem said Messiah will be known as Prince of Peace

Around and around we go -- as Ive said many times before, this verse refers to King Hezekiah, not the messiah.

 

[Flankerl]

It'll never cease to amaze me how Christians cannot grapple with the simple fact that Hebrew names have meanings.


*gasp*
A man in a lions den and he's named Daniel.
What could it mean...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am seeing some intense handwaving.

Sorry, but I am far from impressed by your vision.

I'd love for you to handle the facts, which are:

1) MIGHTY GOD prophesied the Messiah's characteristics shall include being known as Prince of Peace

Assuming that you are referring to Isaiah 9:6-7, could you share
(a) where the term Messiah is used, and
(b) why the opening phrase should not be rendered in the past tense, as found here, here, and in most if not all modern Jewish and secular translations?

2) Billions regard Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, God, Savior, King and Prince of Peace

And those foolish enough to consider that probative might consider the fact that roughly twice as many do not regard hime as such. Argumentum ad populum is a double-edged sword, and your sword play is doubly silly.