Jews and Jesus

[David Davidovich]

Who do Jews believe Jesus was with all his supposed miracles along with all the supposed commotion that surrounded Jesus? Do Jews even believe that he existed? Also, I wanted to note that I am not asking this question to Jewish Christians, but only to Jews.

 

[Harel13]

Who do Jews believe Jesus was with all his supposed miracles along with all the supposed commotion that surrounded Jesus? Do Jews even believe that he existed? Also, I wanted to note that I am not asking this question to Jewish Christians, but only to Jews.

Yes, most Jews believe he existed. In the Talmud, there are a number of figures named Jesus. One or more of these have been traditionally identified with the same figure worshiped by Christians. These figures are presented as Jewish sorcerers who led other Jews astray. One of these even worshiped an idol. These traditions greatly conflict with the Jesus presented in the NT, but the miracles are not the issue. Judaism recognizes that people with mystical abilities exist. A miracle-worker is not necessarily a messenger of God.

Nowadays, I think that most Jews accept that the Jesus of the NT was a real person, and less identify him with any of the Jesuses in the Talmud. Many probably doubt that he performed the miracles associated with him (because, among other reasons, our generation is a hugely skeptical one). However, as I said, in terms of Jewish faith, the miracles are not the problem.

As for myself, I am very skeptical of the version of Jesus presented in the NT.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And what do Lithuanians believe about Pizza? More importantly, why does it matter?

 

[RabbiO]

And what do Lithuanians believe about Pizza?

My understanding is that if the dough does not rise in 3 days it is a false crust.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Who do Jews believe Jesus was with all his supposed miracles along with all the supposed commotion that surrounded Jesus? Do Jews even believe that he existed? Also, I wanted to note that I am not asking this question to Jewish Christians, but only to Jews.

There are a couple of threads where this was discussed in so much detail it will make your head spin. Below are two that have a lot of detail, back information, history, and various view which may help.

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

Note: On the above link the OP is important then I suggest going to page 2.

Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

 

[David Davidovich]

Yes, most Jews believe he existed. In the Talmud, there are a number of figures named Jesus. One or more of these have been traditionally identified with the same figure worshiped by Christians. These figures are presented as Jewish sorcerers who led other Jews astray. One of these even worshiped an idol. These traditions greatly conflict with the Jesus presented in the NT, but the miracles are not the issue. Judaism recognizes that people with mystical abilities exist. A miracle-worker is not necessarily a messenger of God.

Thank you for your answer, however, I am surprised that you mentioned that Judaism recognizes that people with mystical abilities exist and that a miracle-worker is not necessarily a messenger of God because of what was discussed in the other thread.(link)

Nowadays, I think that most Jews accept that the Jesus of the NT was a real person, and less identify him with any of the Jesuses in the Talmud. Many probably doubt that he performed the miracles associated with him (because, among other reasons, our generation is a hugely skeptical one). However, as I said, in terms of Jewish faith, the miracles are not the problem.

As for myself, I am very skeptical of the version of Jesus presented in the NT.

Once again, thank you.

 

[David Davidovich]

And what do Lithuanians believe about Pizza? More importantly, why does it matter?

Well, we are at the Religious Forums in the Religions Q&A sub forum, therefore, your question is like us being at a culinary school where one of the students asks the Chef Instructor how to bake an apple pie, but the Chef Instructor says to the student, "why does it matter?"

 

[David Davidovich]

My understanding is that if the dough does not rise in 3 days it is a false crust.

Oh, my.

 

[David Davidovich]

There are a couple of threads where this was discussed in so much detail it will make your head spin. Below are two that have a lot of detail, back information, history, and various view which may help.

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

Note: On the above link the OP is important then I suggest going to page 2.

Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

They look interesting and I look forward to reading them. Thanks.

 

[Harel13]

Thank you for your answer, however, I am surprised that you mentioned that Judaism recognizes that people with mystical abilities exist and that a miracle-worker is not necessarily a messenger of God because of what was discussed in the other thread.(link)

It might be a surprise to some, but I'm not sure why specifically in light of the post you linked. Could you please clarify?

 

[David Davidovich]

It might be a surprise to some, but I'm not sure why specifically in light of the post you linked. Could you please clarify?

Because I was getting an ambiguous answer from Ehav4Ever where he seemed to have been saying that some rabbit and sages do believe in other supernatural powers other than God's, and other rabbis and sages don't. But kind of read the posts before and after that one.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Because I was getting an ambiguous answer from Ehav4Ever where he seemed to have been saying that some rabbit and sages do believe in other supernatural powers other than God's, and other rabbis and sages don't. But kind of read the posts before and after that one.

Again, your discussion with Harel13 is something of a language mix up. He is responding to what the NT claims jesus did and what jewish sources claim the historical yeshu was "trying" to do.

Please be aware, I never used the words "God" and I never stated anything "supernatural powers" in reference to what people can and can't do in order to convince Jews that they are leader of the Jewish people. You are mixing up two different discussions.

For example, it may seem like a "miracle" for someone to change water into wine. Yet, if you really think about it there are other people who have been claimed to do that before. So, is that a supernatural power? Well, what exactly is a supernatural power to begin with? If I use a natural chemical process to do something and you don't know how I did it - it may seem supernatural to you only because you don't know how I did it.

Another example, the NT claim about jesus taking 5 loaves and 5 fish and feeding 5,000 people. First problem, there should be 5,000 witnesses to such an event. Who were they and where are their accounts of the events. Feeding 5,000 people may not really a miracle at all. It all depends on how many times he seperated the food and whether or not he really ONLY HAD 5 loaves and 5 fish. Again, is this really supernatural or did the person recording the account simply not know how he did it?

Lastly, the Talmud gives accounts of rabbis during the 2nd Temple period doing some of the same things that the NT writers claim were miracles. So, if more than one person is able to do it is really supernatural?

Again, you have to clear what words you are using. Also, to be really frank in the Torah it is written that false prophets can do signs and wonders. The measuring stick is if what they say matches what Hashem gave in the Hebrew Torah. Thus, the claim about yeshu was that he may have done some things here and there but his words were opposite what Hashem gave in the Torah. At that point, it doesn't matter what natural or supernatural stuff he did, or convinced something that he "supposidly" did, his actions and words against what Hashem gave means that Jews must stay away or he puts them in danger. All we have to do is look at the legacy of yeshu's followers. Their movement died out two generations after the got started.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Thank you for your answer, however, I am surprised that you mentioned that Judaism recognizes that people with mystical abilities exist and that a miracle-worker

My suggestion is that both you and Harel13 need to give your defintions of what "mystical abilities" and "miracle-working" is. You may find out that you don't share the same definitions.

 

[pearl]

Another example, the NT claim about jesus taking 5 loaves and 5 fish and feeding 5,000 people. First problem, there should be 5,000 witnesses to such an event. Who were they and where are their accounts of the events. Feeding 5,000 people may not really a miracle at all. It all depends on how many times he seperated the food and whether or not he really ONLY HAD 5 loaves and 5 fish. Again, is this really supernatural or did the person recording the account simply not know how he did it?

Interesting take on feeding 5000.
In Hebrew Scripture, someone had multiplied loaves, and they too were barley. Elisha was the successor of Elijah, the greatest of all the prophets. Elijah had multiplied flour and oil to save a widow and her son from starvation. Elisha did a bit better than his master, multiplying 20 barley loaves so as to feed 100, with some even left over. But in the Gospel, Jesus multiplies 5 barley loaves and feeds 5,000, leaving 12 baskets left over.

Moses and the manna. What is the symbolic number associated with Moses? There are five books of Moses. Jesus starts with five barley loaves. He is transforming the Mosaic Law into something much bigger, greater, and more nourishing. Moses predicted that God would raise up a prophet like himself (Deut 18:18).

Barley is the first grain to be harvested in the Spring, and the feast of unleavened bread celebrates the first fruits of the barley harvest. Jesus performs this miracle
as Passover approaches and will go on later in John 6 to explain that he himself is the bread of life.

How many baskets of scraps are left over? Twelve, the mystical number symbolizing God’s people. Twelve tribes, twelve patriarchs, and now twelve apostles.

There is no way in understanding the post resurrection faith of Christians apart from Jewish Scripture. Was there really a miracle or a narrative on Jesus as 'bread of life'?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Interesting take on feeding 5000.
In Hebrew Scripture, someone had multiplied loaves, and they too were barley. Elisha was the successor of Elijah, the greatest of all the prophets. Elijah had multiplied flour and oil to save a widow and her son from starvation. Elisha did a bit better than his master, multiplying 20 barley loaves so as to feed 100, with some even left over. But in the Gospel, Jesus multiplies 5 barley loaves and feeds 5,000, leaving 12 baskets left over.

Moses and the manna. What is the symbolic number associated with Moses? There are five books of Moses. Jesus starts with five barley loaves. He is transforming the Mosaic Law into something much bigger, greater, and more nourishing. Moses predicted that God would raise up a prophet like himself (Deut 18:18).

Barley is the first grain to be harvested in the Spring, and the feast of unleavened bread celebrates the first fruits of the barley harvest. Jesus performs this miracle
as Passover approaches and will go on later in John 6 to explain that he himself is the bread of life.

How many baskets of scraps are left over? Twelve, the mystical number symbolizing God’s people. Twelve tribes, twelve patriarchs, and now twelve apostles.

There is no way in understanding the post resurrection faith of Christians apart from Jewish Scripture. Was there really a miracle or a narrative on Jesus as 'bread of life'?

Thus, there are those who think that the NT authors took the stories in the Tanakh and applied them jesus to fill in the gaps in order to try and connect them to him.

 

[pearl]

Thus, there are those who think that the NT authors took the stories in the Tanakh and applied them jesus to fill in the gaps in order to try and connect them to him.

Plus, 'one upmanship'.

 

[David Davidovich]

Again, your discussion with Harel13 is something of a language mix up. He is responding to what the NT claims jesus did and what jewish sources claim the historical yeshu was "trying" to do.

Ehav4Ever, that is not what Harel13 said. Below is a quote of his post:

Yes, most Jews believe he existed. In the Talmud, there are a number of figures named Jesus. One or more of these have been traditionally identified with the same figure worshiped by Christians. These figures are presented as Jewish sorcerers who led other Jews astray. One of these even worshiped an idol. These traditions greatly conflict with the Jesus presented in the NT, but the miracles are not the issue. Judaism recognizes that people with mystical abilities exist. A miracle-worker is not necessarily a messenger of God.

Please be aware, I never used the words "God" and I never stated anything "supernatural powers" in reference to what people can and can't do in order to convince Jews that they are leader of the Jewish people. You are mixing up two different discussions.

For example, it may seem like a "miracle" for someone to change water into wine. Yet, if you really think about it there are other people who have been claimed to do that before. So, is that a supernatural power? Well, what exactly is a supernatural power to begin with? If I use a natural chemical process to do something and you don't know how I did it - it may seem supernatural to you only because you don't know how I did it.

Sigh!

Another example, the NT claim about jesus taking 5 loaves and 5 fish and feeding 5,000 people. First problem, there should be 5,000 witnesses to such an event. Who were they and where are their accounts of the events. Feeding 5,000 people may not really a miracle at all. It all depends on how many times he seperated the food and whether or not he really ONLY HAD 5 loaves and 5 fish. Again, is this really supernatural or did the person recording the account simply not know how he did it?

Sigh!

Lastly, the Talmud gives accounts of rabbis during the 2nd Temple period doing some of the same things that the NT writers claim were miracles. So, if more than one person is able to do it is really supernatural?

Sigh!

Again, you have to clear what words you are using. Also, to be really frank in the Torah it is written that false prophets can do signs and wonders. The measuring stick is if what they say matches what Hashem gave in the Hebrew Torah.

I see. But I'm curious. What about what the Pharaoh's wise men and sorcerers and the Egyptian magicians did, which is found in the Torah at Exodus 7? Was that natural or supernatural, or something that they knew how to do which the average person didn't know how to do? Also, I seemed to have seen conflicting things in your post that I quoted. Such as magic and supernatural stuff does exist, and it doesn't. Or that it's really something else. Even though in one of the other threads, you stated that the supernatural has been, um, scientifically disproven, based on some, um, highly scientific videos.

Thus, the claim about yeshu was that he may have done some things here and there but his words were opposite what Hashem gave in the Torah.

Well, you do have a point.

At that point, it doesn't matter what natural or supernatural stuff he did, or convinced something that he "supposidly" did, his actions and words against what Hashem gave means that Jews must stay away or he puts them in danger. All we have to do is look at the legacy of yeshu's followers. Their movement died out two generations after the got started.

Are you talking about Christianity?

 

[David Davidovich]

My suggestion is that both you and Harel13 need to give your defintions of what "mystical abilities" and "miracle-working" is. You may find out that you don't share the same definitions.

Okay, Harel13, what did you mean when you said: These figures are presented as Jewish sorcerers who led other Jews astray?

 

[David Davidovich]

Thus, there are those who think that the NT authors took the stories in the Tanakh and applied them jesus to fill in the gaps in order to try and connect them to him.

That's interesting, however, why do you think that the NT authors may have done this?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Ehav4Ever, that is not what Harel13 said. Below is a quote of his post:

Actually, you didn't ask what the statement "Jewish sorcerers" and why he used the term "Jewish sorcerers" rather than just "sorcerer." Also, you didn't ask, "according to Jews what is a sorcerer and what they can and can't naturally do?

I see that you have procided a post where you are now asking him what he meant. That is a good start.

I see. But I'm curious. What about what the Pharaoh's wise men and sorcerers and the Egyptian magicians did, which is found in the Torah at Exodus 7? Was that natural or supernatural, or something that they knew how to do which the average person didn't know how to do?

Now you are asking the right questions.

1. There are some Jewish sources that state that they were doing slight of hand, and essentially what illusianists do.
2. There are some Jewish soureces that state that they were simply using methods of what could be called science known to them at their time, but unknown to those outside of their secret groups.

Again, both views converge that when confronted with what Hashem, THE Source of reality, gave Mosheh ben-Amram to do - Pharaoh's wise men and sorcerers and the Egyptian magicians did became stumped and couldn't replicate what they were experiencing. Further, even they had to admit that what was happening due to Mosheh ben-Amram was coming from a higher source of power then was a) fully understood/known by them and b) something that they had no power to replicate.

Also, I seemed to have seen conflicting things in your post that I quoted. Such as magic and supernatural stuff does exist, and it doesn't. Or that it's really something else. Even though in one of the other threads, you stated that the supernatural has been, um, scientifically disproven, based on some, um, highly scientific videos.

First, IN DETAIL what is "supernatural?" If I light a match in front of a tribe of people who have never seen a match is that supernatural? If I use a chemical process to make something happen is that supernatural?

We were discussing the Rambam's position on (שדים) vs. the other views on them. I stated that the Rambam's position has been proven to be scientifically sound. Again, what is a demon and what is a (שד). Are people affected/influenced by them the way "certain" ancient people thought? If so, has this been proven clinacally?

Are you talking about Christianity?

I am talking about the early "Jewish" Christians. They disappeared 2 generations after their start. They were replaced by non-Jewish Christians who survived.