It was in response to ...It was not at all intended as a criticism - simply an observation.
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Jews and Muslims..friends or enemies?
- Thread starter Monotheist 101
- Start date
Yes, I can appreciate that. Thanks.
And just make sure I am clear about what I meant, I was addressing some recent posts, and one in particular from the OP about what might have happened to take this thread about the discussion of theological commonalities off in the direction of political disagreement.
I was pointing out that I thought the sentence I quoted placed a position of a specific and necessary political outcome into the beginning of a theological/religious commonalities discussion.
I understand. But "Jews and Muslims..friends or enemies?" invites acknowledgement of more than theological/religious commonalities. When faced with the OP my job and opportunity is to appreciate its intent and openness and move on from there.
Question_love_act
Humanist... "Animalist"?
Is religion the cause of the conflict? Because I can understand that it's the solution, but is it the main cause as well? I don't have a particular opinion on the subject as I am neither Muslim nor Jew, I want to know how you folks that are part of these religions think about it. Is the conflict mostly caused by religious or social/cultural motives?
Assad91
Shi'ah Ali
The modern conflict between Muslims and Jews is a political one. Though one should specify, as it is a conflict of anti-zionist muslims and pro-zionist jews.
Question_love_act
Humanist... "Animalist"?
So the problem is more political, then ? It makes sense as both religions have the same core beliefs. IMO too, they are in many points also they are the two most similar of the abrahamic religions.
But unfortunately religion is used to justify Zionism or other political doctrines.
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Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Thanks Monotheist.
I try to focus on the more day to day experience ATM rather than jump head first into the political divisions. My family, even the European side had long standing working and friendship relations with Arabs since arriving to the region in the 19th century. If you take away the political arguments and put Israelis and Palestinians or local Jews and Muslims together most chances are that you'll see them finding common ground pretty fast. The conflict in general is perpetuated by factors which are beyond the common every day people's sphere of influence. The average people want to live, raise a family, and prosper. One of the problems of course, is that both Jews and Arabs have strong convictions and willingness to fight for their goals and ideals.
Muslims are not enemies of jews
In Palestine they were forced to
Fight against invasion
This is The case in most countries
E.g when india was invaded by america what they did is that they Fight against invasion.
They don't haTe jews buT soldiers who kill Their kids , parenTs and keep them without shelter
I am not Fan hitler
But I heard
When hitler killed jews
he said I didn't kill all jews to leT The world experience how bad They are .
In Palestine they were forced to
Fight against invasion
This is The case in most countries
E.g when india was invaded by america what they did is that they Fight against invasion.
They don't haTe jews buT soldiers who kill Their kids , parenTs and keep them without shelter
I am not Fan hitler
But I heard
When hitler killed jews
he said I didn't kill all jews to leT The world experience how bad They are .
Moishe3rd
Yehudi
Which is actually far more than it deserves...
Indian Iconoclast
Member
Well that question has been answered by the so called and so believed (by those that do believe in it) The Lectures of God. The believers of which are the so called Peaceful! (Read Muslims)
The Lectures very clearly command: OH THOSE THAT BELIEVE! MAKE NO FRIENDS OF THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS! FOR THE FRIENDSHIP OF SOME LEADS TO THE WAYS OF SOME! AND HE AMONGST YOU THAT BEFRIENDS THEM (JEWS AND CHRISTIANS) TODAY SHALL BE COUNTED VERILY AS ONE OF THEM (TOMORROW ON THE DOOMSDAY)! AND GOD INDEED DOES NOT LEAD THE SPREADERS OF DARKNESS (TO BLISS)!
ARABIC TRANSLITERATION: YA AIYYUHALLAZEENA AAMANOU! LAA TATTAKHAZAL YAHUDA WAN NASAARA! AULIYA'U BAA'DIN AULIYAA 'A BAA'D! FAMAN YATAWALLAHU MINKUM FA INNAHU MINHUM! INNALLAH LAA YAHDIL QAUMAZZAALIMEEN!
Thus the Lectures forbid the friendship of Jews and Christians! The only concession of association afforded to Jews and Christians by the Peaceful are that the chaste (Assuaalihaat), Jewish and Christian women that as such can be accepted as brides in marriage by the Peaceful! This concession came in the later stages of the Lectures when Muhammad, seeing the ravishing beauty of Safiya the widow of the slain Jewish chieftain murdered by his band of the Peaceful, fell as prime prize booty to him and he to impress her, offered her proper Peaceful wedding unlike his band of butchers who kept the Jewish women of that defeated Jewish village as their carnal slaves for rape at will and sold after for profit! And his show of a wedding to the Coptic Christian slave girl Mariah who was gifted to him by the Peaceful leader conquering Egypt, to impress of his magnanimity to the Coptics. Prior to these weddings. the Lectures (Surah Al Baqreh) forbade marriage of both Peaceful men and women to infidels like Jews and Christians! That concession (Surah Al Maaideh) still continues the earlier forbidding of marriage by Peaceful females to Jewish and Christian men.
Any friendship thus is not to be seen as REAL between the Peaceful and the Jews and the Christians in the name of the Worshiped the Merciful the Benevolent!
The Lectures very clearly command: OH THOSE THAT BELIEVE! MAKE NO FRIENDS OF THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS! FOR THE FRIENDSHIP OF SOME LEADS TO THE WAYS OF SOME! AND HE AMONGST YOU THAT BEFRIENDS THEM (JEWS AND CHRISTIANS) TODAY SHALL BE COUNTED VERILY AS ONE OF THEM (TOMORROW ON THE DOOMSDAY)! AND GOD INDEED DOES NOT LEAD THE SPREADERS OF DARKNESS (TO BLISS)!
ARABIC TRANSLITERATION: YA AIYYUHALLAZEENA AAMANOU! LAA TATTAKHAZAL YAHUDA WAN NASAARA! AULIYA'U BAA'DIN AULIYAA 'A BAA'D! FAMAN YATAWALLAHU MINKUM FA INNAHU MINHUM! INNALLAH LAA YAHDIL QAUMAZZAALIMEEN!
Thus the Lectures forbid the friendship of Jews and Christians! The only concession of association afforded to Jews and Christians by the Peaceful are that the chaste (Assuaalihaat), Jewish and Christian women that as such can be accepted as brides in marriage by the Peaceful! This concession came in the later stages of the Lectures when Muhammad, seeing the ravishing beauty of Safiya the widow of the slain Jewish chieftain murdered by his band of the Peaceful, fell as prime prize booty to him and he to impress her, offered her proper Peaceful wedding unlike his band of butchers who kept the Jewish women of that defeated Jewish village as their carnal slaves for rape at will and sold after for profit! And his show of a wedding to the Coptic Christian slave girl Mariah who was gifted to him by the Peaceful leader conquering Egypt, to impress of his magnanimity to the Coptics. Prior to these weddings. the Lectures (Surah Al Baqreh) forbade marriage of both Peaceful men and women to infidels like Jews and Christians! That concession (Surah Al Maaideh) still continues the earlier forbidding of marriage by Peaceful females to Jewish and Christian men.
Any friendship thus is not to be seen as REAL between the Peaceful and the Jews and the Christians in the name of the Worshiped the Merciful the Benevolent!
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Assad91
Shi'ah Ali
Says a minority of scholars. Not all agree with such interpretation.
Taking that your Indian and was muslim, what kind? Deobandi?
Indian Iconoclast
Member
Your English my friend Assad, is pathetic! What exactly did you mean when you wrote "Taking that your Indian and was muslim, what kind?"
Did you mean to say that you took me to be an Indian and that I had been a Muslim?
The answer is yes that I am an Indian and NO that I was ever a Muslim!
And from where did you get the authority to write "Says a minority of scholars. Not all agree with such interpretation." ? Are you a scholar on Islam or a Shia Muslim as is apparent with your forum identity? It does not appear here from your comments that you are either of these! Either you are totally ignorant of the Lectures from God (Alquran Al Majeed) or you are not a Peaceful (a Muslim) at all!
If you were a Muslim (and to be so requires of you to have complete and unconditional faith on the contents of the Lectures (Koran) as such) you have challenged the quote from the Koran, which I have translated and also transliterated in my reply! I do not think it is proper for a Muslim to describe the lines (Aayaat) from the Koran as a view of any minority or majority of (Muslim) scholars. To a Muslim these are words of his God! Never to be doubted or challenged! So then Assad, are you a Muslim? For if you are then your offense to your God is recorded on these forum pages for others to view and testify!
A Deobandi? Am I a native of a place called Deoband in the state of Uttar Pradesh of India? No. Am I a subscriber to the Islamic institution called the Daar Ul Uloom (Abode of knowledge) that is situated in that place called Deoband? Again no! Because I am not and have never been, a Muslim to subscribe to any Islamic institution or school.
I have the experience of interacting with a lot of so called Muslims, who speak with authority on Islam before non Muslim audience, little knowing that their total ignorance of Islam can be seen clearly through by those non Muslims that have studied Islam and its scriptures painstakingly and thoroughly as I have.
Peace!
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None of the countries in America have ever invaded India. It is convenient for us that India is increasingly powerful. India has recently launched its first nuclear powered submarine which it purchased from Russia, another strong ally of the USA. India does not hate American countries, so we like India. We like countries that don't hate us. I know it sounds strange, but its true.quizas said:
Assad91
Shi'ah Ali
I am not going to bother myself with the silly insults and the nonsense you posted.
You're not a muslim, you're not educated, keep your silly uneducated jurisprudence to yourself
Thanks
Yeah, you don't know much about Islamic jurisprudence, do you? Only an ignorant would think they can open Quran, find a verse and take it at face value without investigation.
You're not a muslim, you're not educated, keep your silly uneducated jurisprudence to yourself
Thanks
Indian Iconoclast
Member
I am not going to bother myself with the silly insults and the nonsense you posted.
Yeah, you don't know much about Islamic jurisprudence, do you? Only an ignorant would think they can open Quran, find a verse and take it at face value without investigation.
You're not a muslim, you're not educated, keep your silly uneducated jurisprudence to yourself
Now that was really a true reaction of a trapped fibber by his own words! A proverb in Arabic says that a fibber who also is an ignoramus, puts his foot in his mouth every time he opens it! Matches you Assad91 and your posts absolutely! And,
IF YOU WERE NOT GOING TO BOTHER YOURSELF WITH MY SILLY INSULTS AND THE NONSENSE THAT I HAVE POSTED TO YOUR BLASPHEMY EARLIER (YOU HAVE REPEATED THAT BLASPHEMY AGAIN IN THIS POST) WHAT BIT YOUR RUMPS TO WRITE THIS POST? IS IT STILL BURNING DOWN THERE?
I am not a Muslim (I thank my fate for it) and may not seem educated to you, but your comment " Only an ignorant would think they can open Quran, find a verse and take it at face value without investigation.", does merit a question from you and other Muslims who may read these lines, and that is,:-
IS A VERSE FROM THE QURAN (EVEN IF OPENED AND QUOTED BY AN UNEDUCATED AND IGNORANT NON MUSLIM) NOT TO BE TAKEN AT ITS FACE VALUE? DO THE DEVOUT MUSLIMS INVESTIGATE EVERY VERSE, LINE OR WORD FROM THE QURAN THAT THEY READ AND NOT TAKE THEM AT THEIR FACE VALUE? DOES ISLAM TEACH ITS FOLLOWERS THE PRINCIPLE OF INVESTIGATING THE CONTENTS OF QURAN AND NOT PUTTING ABSOLUTE FAITH IN THEM? LET OTHER MUSLIMS ALSO ANSWER ME.
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Assad91
Shi'ah Ali
Um, yeah. But as most laymen don't have the time nor the education to do so, we rely upon those we make taqleed on.
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
And We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect. (An-Nahl 16:44)
Putting absolute faith in Allah, his messengers, scriptures and angels forms the basis of our faith, regardless of whatever sect. Yes the devout Muslims spend time investigating the verses of the Quran and studying various interpretations and the hadith, the faith is already there though, and I believe that is what ultimately leads to a deeper understanding of the Quran.
Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the signs, not they will believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the ancients." (Al An'am 6:25)
Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness(2:257)
I believe that Allah is the only source of spiritual light in the world. Our actions determine how much of his light reaches us, their are layers of veils between us and his light/Nur, doing good deeds (giving charity etc.) lifts some of those veils, but most important is the veil on the heart, the one that is caused by a lack of faith/Emaan. The one basic thing the pious educated Muslim and the the illiterate villager share is their "ABSOLUTE FAITH" which leads to a deeper understanding in some cases if God wills it.
When thou dost recite the Qur'an, We put, between thee and those who believe not in the Hereafter, a veil invisible:And We put coverings over their hearts (and minds) lest they should understand the Qur'an, and deafness into their ears: when thou dost commemorate thy Lord and Him alone in the Qur'an, they turn on their backs, fleeing (from the Truth).We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say, "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!" (Al Isra 17:45-47)
What kept men back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, "Has Allah sent a man (like us) to be (His) Messenger?"Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger. (17:94-95)
Personally I believe the Quran is too enormous to be studied in a lifetime, I find it amusing how some people read like a book cover to cover and quickly judge it, the Quran is like a mirror, you get a reflection of what you put into it. ABSOLUTE FAITH is a must, a stepping stone to build a foundation on.
Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it; then He will forgive whom He pleases and chastise whom He pleases, and Allah has power over all things.The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray: ) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith." (2:284-6)
Putting absolute faith in Allah, his messengers, scriptures and angels forms the basis of our faith, regardless of whatever sect. Yes the devout Muslims spend time investigating the verses of the Quran and studying various interpretations and the hadith, the faith is already there though, and I believe that is what ultimately leads to a deeper understanding of the Quran.
Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the signs, not they will believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the ancients." (Al An'am 6:25)
Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness(2:257)
I believe that Allah is the only source of spiritual light in the world. Our actions determine how much of his light reaches us, their are layers of veils between us and his light/Nur, doing good deeds (giving charity etc.) lifts some of those veils, but most important is the veil on the heart, the one that is caused by a lack of faith/Emaan. The one basic thing the pious educated Muslim and the the illiterate villager share is their "ABSOLUTE FAITH" which leads to a deeper understanding in some cases if God wills it.
When thou dost recite the Qur'an, We put, between thee and those who believe not in the Hereafter, a veil invisible:And We put coverings over their hearts (and minds) lest they should understand the Qur'an, and deafness into their ears: when thou dost commemorate thy Lord and Him alone in the Qur'an, they turn on their backs, fleeing (from the Truth).We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say, "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!" (Al Isra 17:45-47)
What kept men back from belief when Guidance came to them, was nothing but this: they said, "Has Allah sent a man (like us) to be (His) Messenger?"Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger. (17:94-95)
Personally I believe the Quran is too enormous to be studied in a lifetime, I find it amusing how some people read like a book cover to cover and quickly judge it, the Quran is like a mirror, you get a reflection of what you put into it. ABSOLUTE FAITH is a must, a stepping stone to build a foundation on.
Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it; then He will forgive whom He pleases and chastise whom He pleases, and Allah has power over all things.The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray: ) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith." (2:284-6)
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