Jews call for the dismantling of the Zionist state of Israel

Avi1001 · Mar 18, 2014

Do you think they should be allowed to be CO's without doing some time ?

Levite said:
Every culture and faith has its lunatic fringe.

These people are far-right extremists, largely funded by the Satmar Chasidic community and the Neturei Karta group, both crazy fanatical communities.

Their complaint against Zionism is that they believe it contravenes a duty for God to see to the return of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel with the coming of the messiah.

If you examine how these extremist groups envision the messianic age, and the treatment of non-Jews in such an age, you will see that their "anti-Zionism" is in no way reflective of any kind of humanitarian outrage on behalf of Palestinians or any other non-Jewish group.

To try and present this kind of nuttiness as anything serious, anything moored in either common sense or human decency, is to completely trivialize the entire set of issues of Zionism, Judaism, and Middle East relations; and to undermine any kind of real discussion of social issues with moderate or liberal religious people by granting sweeping mainstream authenticity to the most rigidly fundamentalist element of a religion.

Levite · Mar 18, 2014

Avi1001 said:
Do you think they should be allowed to be CO's without doing some time ?

If they don't live in the State of Israel, they can't be called to accountability for their behavior, however distasteful. But I certainly think their opinions ought not to be misrepresented either as mainstream or of any sizeable percentage of the Jewish People, nor should they be misrepresented as somehow humanitarian or moral in motivation, since their views are wholly self-serving, in furtherance of a theologically repugnant worldview.

And while I am a believer that every Jew should be permitted to return to the Land of Israel if they so choose, I also believe that actively working to eliminate the State of Israel, and giving support to its enemies, should be grounds for expulsion from the State of Israel, in addition to possible jail time. And for those, like most Satmarer Chasidim, and some other radical Charedim, who are passively anti-Zionist, but do not actively work to undermine the existence of the State of Israel, they should be permitted to live in Israel, but not to have citizenship.

I think if one becomes a citizen of Israel, one has the responsibility to support its right to exist, and to take up arms in its defense.

Pink Top Hat said:
If you are a Jew and your religion tells you not to kill and your Moses prophet tells you the commandment not to kill and you don't believe that Israel is a real state and is actually against your very own religion.

For the record, there is no commandment not to kill. That is a mistranslation. The commandment is not to murder, which is different. It also does not apply on the battlefield.

Then would you knowing all that voluntarily join the IOF killing machine and drop white phosphorus on babies heads because Netanyahu and his gang of psychopaths told you to or would you refuse? Would you be a CO or not?

If we're going to get into trading the usual inflammatory, excessively hyped accusations, then why is there no substantive Palestinian outcry against Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the various minor Palestinian terrorist groups using their own civilian populace as shields to hide behind in order to try and escape retribution for their terrorist attacks, or in order to increase the collateral casualties on their own side in order to fuel their propaganda machine and international support? Where are the COs for that? Where are their demonstrations?

Levite · Mar 18, 2014

Tumah said:
I am a Haredi Jew (not to be confused with Hassidic). I was at the gathering here in Israel.

The purpose of the gathering was not aimed at denigrating Zionism. There were a few religious-Zionist Rabbis and schools in attendance. There were even soldiers in attendance. The purpose of the gathering was proclaiming our belief of the primacy of Torah study over anything else, bar none. It was in response to the new draft law that aims to remove students from the study-halls. That's it.

That is not what I have heard, but if you were there and say it is so, I will revise my opinion.

Nonetheless, I also think that it is shameful for yeshiva bochers and kollel boys to dodge the draft in the name of learning Torah. Whether one views it positively or negatively from a religious standpoint, the State of Israel is a state of Jewish people. It is perpetually in need of defense, and thus it is the duty of every Jewish citizen of that state to come to its defense.

It's a matter of pikuach nefesh (saving lives), if nothing else. But also, it is the worst kind of rank hypocrisy for charedim to badmouth chilonim and chiloni society as they do, but hide behind chilonim in uniform when it comes to their safety and security. It's treating one's fellow Jews as cannon fodder.

Every Jewish citizen of Israel should aid in the responsibility of defending all citizens of Israel. And any Jew who thinks that defending the lives of their fellow Jews is less important than sitting in kollel learning Gemara should get out of Israel, and sit in a kollel in some other country, where their devotion to Torah without any derech eretz at all won't endanger the lives of others or needlessly drain the economy of the Jewish State.

Jayhawker Soule · Mar 18, 2014

Tumah said:
I am a Haredi Jew (not to be confused with Hassidic). I was at the gathering here in Israel.

The purpose of the gathering was not aimed at denigrating Zionism. There were a few religious-Zionist Rabbis and schools in attendance. There were even soldiers in attendance. The purpose of the gathering was proclaiming our belief of the primacy of Torah study over anything else, bar none. It was in response to the new draft law that aims to remove students from the study-halls. That's it.

What a shameful post! How dare you attempt to taint a pathetically dishonest thread with fact …

</sarcasm>

Tumah · Mar 18, 2014

Levite said:
These people are far-right extremists, largely funded by the Satmar Chasidic community and the Neturei Karta group, both crazy fanatical communities.

If you truly believe that either of the rallies represent a faction that is funded by Satmar or Neturei Karta, then you know much less about Hareidi Judaism than I originally thought.

Although Satmar is known to have a number of philanthropists, most of then put their money towards various charity organizations. I personally know of only one Yeshivah of about 70-100 students that is not Satmar, but is funded by them. The vast, vast majority -and I'm talking big names like Lakewood, Ponevezh, Mir, Telz and the Hassidic institutions have no more to do with Satmar than they do with any other sect of Hassidim.

As for Neturei Karta, its fairly well known that the people you see shaking hands with Iran are a small group of families with the rather tiny sect that is Neturei Karta. While they are all anti-Zionist, most of them are not rabid.

Levite said:
That is not what I have heard, but if you were there and say it is so, I will revise my opinion.

Nonetheless, I also think that it is shameful for yeshiva bochers and kollel boys to dodge the draft in the name of learning Torah. Whether one views it positively or negatively from a religious standpoint, the State of Israel is a state of Jewish people. It is perpetually in need of defense, and thus it is the duty of every Jewish citizen of that state to come to its defense.

It's a matter of pikuach nefesh (saving lives), if nothing else. But also, it is the worst kind of rank hypocrisy for charedim to badmouth chilonim and chiloni society as they do, but hide behind chilonim in uniform when it comes to their safety and security. It's treating one's fellow Jews as cannon fodder.

Every Jewish citizen of Israel should aid in the responsibility of defending all citizens of Israel. And any Jew who thinks that defending the lives of their fellow Jews is less important than sitting in kollel learning Gemara should get out of Israel, and sit in a kollel in some other country, where their devotion to Torah without any derech eretz at all won't endanger the lives of others or needlessly drain the economy of the Jewish State.

Then allow me to present you with the opportunity to be דו לכף זכות! There is a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud and I have been told it is also in Midrash Rabbah. It says:

ירושלמי חגיגה א:ז
רבי יודן נשייא שלח לרבי חייה ולר' אסי ולר' אמי למיעבור בקירייתא דארעא דישראל למתקנה לון ספרין ומתניינין עלין לחד אתר ולא אשכחון לא ספר ולא מתניין אמרין לון אייתון לן נטורי קרתא אייתון לון סנטורי קרתא אמרון לון אילין אינון נטורי קרתא לית אילין אלא חרובי קרתא אמרין לין ומאן אינון נטורי קרתא אמר לון ספרייא ומתנייניא הדא היא דכתיב (תהילים קכ&#1494

אם ה' לא יבנה בית וגו'

ברכות סד א
אמר רבי אלעזר אמר רבי חנינא תלמידי חכמים מרבים שלום בעולם שנאמר (ישעיהו נד, י&#1490

וכל בניך למודי ה' ורב שלום בניך אל תקרי בניך

מגילה טז ב
אמר רב יוסף גדול תלמוד תורה יותר מהצלת נפשות ... אמר רב ואיתימא רב שמואל בר מרתא גדול תלמוד תורה יותר מבנין בית המקדש ...אמר רבה אמר רב יצחק בר שמואל בר מרתא גדול תלמוד תורה יותר ...מכבוד אב ואם

For Halacha, we have Maimonides:

הלכות תלמוד תורה פרק ג' הלכה ד'
היה לפניו עשיית מצוה ותלמוד תורה אם אפשר למצוה להעשות ע"י אחרים לא יפסיק תלמודו. ואם לאו יעשה המצוה ויחזור לתלמודו:

And in the words of the Shulchan Aruch:

שולחן ערוך יורה דעה סימן רמו ס' יח
ת"ת שקול כנגד כל המצות היה לפניו עשיית מצוה ות"ת אם אפשר למצוה להעשות ע"י אחרים לא יפסיק תלמודו ואם לאו יעשה המצוה ויחזור לתורתו

I hope from the sources quoted above I have adequately explained how we do view ourselves as playing an important part in the defense of our brothers and sisters through our Torah study. And that we don't rely on our secular family to protect us or to hide behind.

In terms of Pikuach Nefesh vs Talmud Torah: as we know, the army is working on downsizing and the law is only meant to play fill the states ideological issues not fill a military lacking. Clearly then, we are talking about pikuach nefesh that is אפשי על ידי אחרים, which would put it in the realm of the Maimonides and Shulchan Aruch passages that I've quoted above.

Lastly, regardingt 'bad-mouthing' chilonim, it would be more helpful if you didn't generalize. You obviously can't expect us to sanction actions that are in direct contradiction to what is expressly stated in the Torah. But the people themselves? I've never heard any of it.

I will add, that one of the issues that is often mentioned is that there are many people who proclaim loudly "ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE" and at the same time speak about kicking the Torah learners out of the country. This is not the way of Rabbi Akiva.

ברכות סא ב
תנו רבנן פעם אחת גזרה מלכות הרשעה שלא יעסקו ישראל בתורה בא פפוס בן יהודה ומצאו לרבי עקיבא שהיה מקהיל קהלות ברבים ועוסק בתורה אמר ליה עקיבא אי אתה מתירא מפני מלכות אמר לו אמשול לך משל למה הדבר דומה לשועל שהיה מהלך על גב הנהר וראה דגים שהיו מתקבצים ממקום למקום אמר להם מפני מה אתם בורחים אמרו לו מפני רשתות שמביאין עלינו בני אדם אמר להם רצונכם שתעלו ליבשה ונדור אני ואתם כשם שדרו אבותי עם אבותיכם אמרו לו אתה הוא שאומרים עליך פקח שבחיות לא פקח אתה אלא טפש אתה ומה במקום חיותנו אנו מתיראין במקום מיתתנו על אחת כמה וכמה אף אנחנו עכשיו שאנו יושבים ועוסקים בתורה שכתוב בה (דברים ל, &#1499

כי הוא חייך ואורך ימיך כך אם אנו הולכים ומבטלים ממנה על אחת כמה וכמה

Avi1001 · Mar 18, 2014

This is great, it is the first time I have understood one of Tumah's posts, even though most of it is in Hebrew, which I do not understand.

He is saying that being a CO is the ethical course, and their Torah studies are the service they provide to the state to make up for defending the country.

Does this lead to a class system, where the secular kids become soldiers to defend the "religious" so they can do their studies ? Is this "democratic" ?

Perhaps these CO's could donate two years of their time to another cause, perhaps they could help people in poverty, in need of help ?

Tumah said:
If you truly believe that either of the rallies represent a faction that is funded by Satmar or Neturei Karta, then you know much less about Hareidi Judaism than I originally thought.

Although Satmar is known to have a number of philanthropists, most of then put their money towards various charity organizations. I personally know of only one Yeshivah of about 70-100 students that is not Satmar, but is funded by them. The vast, vast majority -and I'm talking big names like Lakewood, Ponevezh, Mir, Telz and the Hassidic institutions have no more to do with Satmar than they do with any other sect of Hassidim.

As for Neturei Karta, its fairly well known that the people you see shaking hands with Iran are a small group of families with the rather tiny sect that is Neturei Karta. While they are all anti-Zionist, most of them are not rabid.

Then allow me to present you with the opportunity to be דו לכף זכות! There is a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud and I have been told it is also in Midrash Rabbah. It says:

ירושלמי חגיגה א:ז
רבי יודן נשייא שלח לרבי חייה ולר' אסי ולר' אמי למיעבור בקירייתא דארעא דישראל למתקנה לון ספרין ומתניינין עלין לחד אתר ולא אשכחון לא ספר ולא מתניין אמרין לון אייתון לן נטורי קרתא אייתון לון סנטורי קרתא אמרון לון אילין אינון נטורי קרתא לית אילין אלא חרובי קרתא אמרין לין ומאן אינון נטורי קרתא אמר לון ספרייא ומתנייניא הדא היא דכתיב (תהילים קכ&#1494 אם ה' לא יבנה בית וגו'

ברכות סד א
אמר רבי אלעזר אמר רבי חנינא תלמידי חכמים מרבים שלום בעולם שנאמר (ישעיהו נד, י&#1490 וכל בניך למודי ה' ורב שלום בניך אל תקרי בניך

מגילה טז ב
אמר רב יוסף גדול תלמוד תורה יותר מהצלת נפשות ... אמר רב ואיתימא רב שמואל בר מרתא גדול תלמוד תורה יותר מבנין בית המקדש ...אמר רבה אמר רב יצחק בר שמואל בר מרתא גדול תלמוד תורה יותר ...מכבוד אב ואם

For Halacha, we have Maimonides:

הלכות תלמוד תורה פרק ג' הלכה ד'
היה לפניו עשיית מצוה ותלמוד תורה אם אפשר למצוה להעשות ע"י אחרים לא יפסיק תלמודו. ואם לאו יעשה המצוה ויחזור לתלמודו:

And in the words of the Shulchan Aruch:

שולחן ערוך יורה דעה סימן רמו ס' יח
ת"ת שקול כנגד כל המצות היה לפניו עשיית מצוה ות"ת אם אפשר למצוה להעשות ע"י אחרים לא יפסיק תלמודו ואם לאו יעשה המצוה ויחזור לתורתו

I hope from the sources quoted above I have adequately explained how we do view ourselves as playing an important part in the defense of our brothers and sisters through our Torah study. And that we don't rely on our secular family to protect us or to hide behind.

In terms of Pikuach Nefesh vs Talmud Torah: as we know, the army is working on downsizing and the law is only meant to play fill the states ideological issues not fill a military lacking. Clearly then, we are talking about pikuach nefesh that is אפשי על ידי אחרים, which would put it in the realm of the Maimonides and Shulchan Aruch passages that I've quoted above.

Lastly, regardingt 'bad-mouthing' chilonim, it would be more helpful if you didn't generalize. You obviously can't expect us to sanction actions that are in direct contradiction to what is expressly stated in the Torah. But the people themselves? I've never heard any of it.

I will add, that one of the issues that is often mentioned is that there are many people who proclaim loudly "ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE" and at the same time speak about kicking the Torah learners out of the country. This is not the way of Rabbi Akiva.

ברכות סא ב

תנו רבנן פעם אחת גזרה מלכות הרשעה שלא יעסקו ישראל בתורה בא פפוס בן יהודה ומצאו לרבי עקיבא שהיה מקהיל קהלות ברבים ועוסק בתורה אמר ליה עקיבא אי אתה מתירא מפני מלכות אמר לו אמשול לך משל למה הדבר דומה לשועל שהיה מהלך על גב הנהר וראה דגים שהיו מתקבצים ממקום למקום אמר להם מפני מה אתם בורחים אמרו לו מפני רשתות שמביאין עלינו בני אדם אמר להם רצונכם שתעלו ליבשה ונדור אני ואתם כשם שדרו אבותי עם אבותיכם אמרו לו אתה הוא שאומרים עליך פקח שבחיות לא פקח אתה אלא טפש אתה ומה במקום חיותנו אנו מתיראין במקום מיתתנו על אחת כמה וכמה אף אנחנו עכשיו שאנו יושבים ועוסקים בתורה שכתוב בה (דברים ל, &#1499 כי הוא חייך ואורך ימיך כך אם אנו הולכים ומבטלים ממנה על אחת כמה וכמה

Levite · Mar 18, 2014

Tumah said:
Then allow me to present you with the opportunity to be דו לכף זכות! There is a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud and I have been told it is also in Midrash Rabbah. It says:

ירושלמי חגיגה א:ז
רבי יודן נשייא שלח לרבי חייה ולר' אסי ולר' אמי למיעבור בקירייתא דארעא דישראל למתקנה לון ספרין ומתניינין עלין לחד אתר ולא אשכחון לא ספר ולא מתניין אמרין לון אייתון לן נטורי קרתא אייתון לון סנטורי קרתא אמרון לון אילין אינון נטורי קרתא לית אילין אלא חרובי קרתא אמרין לין ומאן אינון נטורי קרתא אמר לון ספרייא ומתנייניא הדא היא דכתיב (תהילים קכ&#1494 אם ה' לא יבנה בית וגו'

ברכות סד א
אמר רבי אלעזר אמר רבי חנינא תלמידי חכמים מרבים שלום בעולם שנאמר (ישעיהו נד, י&#1490 וכל בניך למודי ה' ורב שלום בניך אל תקרי בניך

מגילה טז ב
אמר רב יוסף גדול תלמוד תורה יותר מהצלת נפשות ... אמר רב ואיתימא רב שמואל בר מרתא גדול תלמוד תורה יותר מבנין בית המקדש ...אמר רבה אמר רב יצחק בר שמואל בר מרתא גדול תלמוד תורה יותר ...מכבוד אב ואם

For Halacha, we have Maimonides:

הלכות תלמוד תורה פרק ג' הלכה ד'
היה לפניו עשיית מצוה ותלמוד תורה אם אפשר למצוה להעשות ע"י אחרים לא יפסיק תלמודו. ואם לאו יעשה המצוה ויחזור לתלמודו:

And in the words of the Shulchan Aruch:

שולחן ערוך יורה דעה סימן רמו ס' יח
ת"ת שקול כנגד כל המצות היה לפניו עשיית מצוה ות"ת אם אפשר למצוה להעשות ע"י אחרים לא יפסיק תלמודו ואם לאו יעשה המצוה ויחזור לתורתו

I hope from the sources quoted above I have adequately explained how we do view ourselves as playing an important part in the defense of our brothers and sisters through our Torah study. And that we don't rely on our secular family to protect us or to hide behind.

In terms of Pikuach Nefesh vs Talmud Torah: as we know, the army is working on downsizing and the law is only meant to play fill the states ideological issues not fill a military lacking. Clearly then, we are talking about pikuach nefesh that is אפשי על ידי אחרים, which would put it in the realm of the Maimonides and Shulchan Aruch passages that I've quoted above.

I would think that the general principle of וחי בהם ולא למות בהם would suffice to show that what Rambam and the Mechaber said, at least, clearly should not be taken in relevance to pikuach nefesh.

And as for Rabbi Yosef's dat yachid from Yerushalmi, it would seem to me to bear far less weight than the agreement of Chazal in Yoma 85 (and maybe other places, too, though I can't recall references off the top of my head), summarized well in Pninei Halachah:

מצווה גדולה לשמור על החיים ולקיימם. וכל-כך גדולה מצווה זו, עד שאמרו חכמים שהיא דוחה את כל המצוות שבתורה, שנאמר (ויקרא יח, &#1492

: "וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת חֻקֹּתַי וְאֶת מִשְׁפָּטַי אֲשֶׁר יַעֲשֶׂה אֹתָם הָאָדָם וָחַי בָּהֶם אֲנִי ה'", ולמדו חכמים מכאן שכל המצוות ניתנו כדי שיחיו בהם, ולא כדי שימותו על ידן, ולכן פיקוח-נפש דוחה את כל המצוות (יומא פה, &#1489

.

And in any case, trying to scrape together isolated opinions of questionable relevance to defend Jews refusing to protect and defend other Jews so they can sit and learn is simply a monstrous perversion of talmud torah. Torah may be d'var Hashem, but people are mamash tzalmei elokim.

Do I really have to quote that mishnah we all know on Sanhedrin 37a?
לפיכך נברא אדם יחידי ללמדך שכל המאבד נפש אחת מישראל מעלה עליו הכתוב כאילו איבד עולם מלא וכל המקיים נפש אחת מישראל מעלה עליו הכתוב כאילו קיים עולם מלא

Lastly, regardingt 'bad-mouthing' chilonim, it would be more helpful if you didn't generalize. You obviously can't expect us to sanction actions that are in direct contradiction to what is expressly stated in the Torah. But the people themselves? I've never heard any of it.

I will add, that one of the issues that is often mentioned is that there are many people who proclaim loudly "ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE" and at the same time speak about kicking the Torah learners out of the country. This is not the way of Rabbi Akiva.

I can and will expect pluralism and tolerance. If Israel is to be a Jewish State, it should be a state where all the Jewish People have space and support to practice Judaism as they understand it to be appropriate. And that includes charedim recognizing that Israel is not, and should not be, a charedi theocracy. If there are matters with which they disagree with non-Orthodox Jews and chilonim mamash, they should disagree respectfully, without violence or cursing, and conduct their own affairs as they see fit-- not attempt to force charedi interpretations of Torah on the whole country.

And speaking of generalizations, I never said that "Torah learners" ought to be kicked out of the country. What I said was that if people choose to learn Torah at the expense of all other duties and obligations to society, even to defending and saving the lives of other Jews, they should have the grace to do so somewhere else, where their selfishness and willingness to make a chillul Hashem out of what should be kiddush Hashem will not harm others. Those citizens of Israel who fulfill their basic duties to society, such as being willing to help defend and save the lives of others, and also wish to spend all the rest of their time learning Torah (despite the many teachings like yafeh Torah im derech eretz), should live and be well in Israel.

Avi1001 · Mar 18, 2014

This must be some sort of miracle, but I actually understand Tumah's point here, and think there is some validity:

And in any case, trying to scrape together isolated opinions of questionable relevance to defend Jews refusing to protect and defend other Jews so they can sit and learn is simply a monstrous perversion of talmud torah. Torah may be d'var Hashem, but people are mamash tzalmei elokim.

So, I do not believe the mind of the CO is to "defend Jews refusing to protect and defend other Jews so they can sit and learn....".

I think this is a misunderstanding of the mind of the CO. I think the CO believes going to war is wrong, so s/he will not participate. Is this the perspective that Tumah is coming from ?

As someone who is anti-war, I can see where he is coming from.

For me to agree with an ultra-Orthodox Jew is some sort of miracle ! It must be the will of G-d.

Levite said:
I would think that the general principle of וחי בהם ולא למות בהם would suffice to show that what Rambam and the Mechaber said, at least, clearly should not be taken in relevance to pikuach nefesh.

And as for Rabbi Yosef's dat yachid from Yerushalmi, it would seem to me to bear far less weight than the agreement of Chazal in Yoma 85 (and maybe other places, too, though I can't recall references off the top of my head), summarized well in Pninei Halachah:

מצווה גדולה לשמור על החיים ולקיימם. וכל-כך גדולה מצווה זו, עד שאמרו חכמים שהיא דוחה את כל המצוות שבתורה, שנאמר (ויקרא יח, &#1492: "וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת חֻקֹּתַי וְאֶת מִשְׁפָּטַי אֲשֶׁר יַעֲשֶׂה אֹתָם הָאָדָם וָחַי בָּהֶם אֲנִי ה'", ולמדו חכמים מכאן שכל המצוות ניתנו כדי שיחיו בהם, ולא כדי שימותו על ידן, ולכן פיקוח-נפש דוחה את כל המצוות (יומא פה, &#1489.

And in any case, trying to scrape together isolated opinions of questionable relevance to defend Jews refusing to protect and defend other Jews so they can sit and learn is simply a monstrous perversion of talmud torah. Torah may be d'var Hashem, but people are mamash tzalmei elokim.

Do I really have to quote that mishnah we all know on Sanhedrin 37a?
לפיכך נברא אדם יחידי ללמדך שכל המאבד נפש אחת מישראל מעלה עליו הכתוב כאילו איבד עולם מלא וכל המקיים נפש אחת מישראל מעלה עליו הכתוב כאילו קיים עולם מלא

I can and will expect pluralism and tolerance. If Israel is to be a Jewish State, it should be a state where all the Jewish People have space and support to practice Judaism as they understand it to be appropriate. And that includes charedim recognizing that Israel is not, and should not be, a charedi theocracy. If there are matters with which they disagree with non-Orthodox Jews and chilonim mamash, they should disagree respectfully, without violence or cursing, and conduct their own affairs as they see fit-- not attempt to force charedi interpretations of Torah on the whole country.

And speaking of generalizations, I never said that "Torah learners" ought to be kicked out of the country. What I said was that if people choose to learn Torah at the expense of all other duties and obligations to society, even to defending and saving the lives of other Jews, they should have the grace to do so somewhere else, where their selfishness and willingness to make a chillul Hashem out of what should be kiddush Hashem will not harm others. Those citizens of Israel who fulfill their basic duties to society, such as being willing to help defend and save the lives of others, and also wish to spend all the rest of their time learning Torah (despite the many teachings like yafeh Torah im derech eretz), should live and be well in Israel.

Levite · Mar 18, 2014

Avi1001 said:
This must be some sort of miracle, but I actually understand Tumah's point here, and think there is some validity:

So, I do not believe the mind of the CO is to "defend Jews refusing to protect and defend other Jews so they can sit and learn....".

I think this is a misunderstanding of the mind of the CO. I think the CO believes going to war is wrong, so s/he will not participate. Is this the perspective that Tumah is coming from ?

As someone who is anti-war, I can see where he is coming from.

As I understand it, and I will be very interested to be corrected if wrong, the point of the yeshiva bochers and kollel boys-- voiced here by Tumah-- is not that war is morally wrong, or even that these particular military actions are morally wrong, but that these particular military actions, or war in general, do not rise to the importance of Torah study. War may even be a mitzvah, this argument would go, just not as big a mitzvah as Torah study, and thus not sufficient motivation to justify these "Torah learners" from ceasing their studies long enough to fight.

I highly, highly doubt that what is at work here is an expression of heartfelt pacifism or moral espousal of nonviolence. I think it is something else entirely.

Avi1001 · Mar 18, 2014

Oy vey, I thought it sounded too good to be true !

This is why I thought they were CO's:

I hope from the sources quoted above I have adequately explained how we do view ourselves as playing an important part in the defense of our brothers and sisters through our Torah study. And that we don't rely on our secular family to protect us or to hide behind.

But upon re-reading it, and Levite's comments, I agree, they are not CO's. And they have no ethical or moral position.

Levite said:
As I understand it, and I will be very interested to be corrected if wrong, the point of the yeshiva bochers and kollel boys-- voiced here by Tumah-- is not that war is morally wrong, or even that these particular military actions are morally wrong, but that these particular military actions, or war in general, do not rise to the importance of Torah study. War may even be a mitzvah, this argument would go, just not as big a mitzvah as Torah study, and thus not sufficient motivation to justify these "Torah learners" from ceasing their studies long enough to fight.

I highly, highly doubt that what is at work here is an expression of heartfelt pacifism or moral espousal of nonviolence. I think it is something else entirely.

Tumah · Mar 19, 2014

Levite said:
As I understand it, and I will be very interested to be corrected if wrong, the point of the yeshiva bochers and kollel boys-- voiced here by Tumah-- is not that war is morally wrong, or even that these particular military actions are morally wrong, but that these particular military actions, or war in general, do not rise to the importance of Torah study. War may even be a mitzvah, this argument would go, just not as big a mitzvah as Torah study, and thus not sufficient motivation to justify these "Torah learners" from ceasing their studies long enough to fight.

I highly, highly doubt that what is at work here is an expression of heartfelt pacifism or moral espousal of nonviolence. I think it is something else entirely.

How could I find war in general ethically wrong when there exists a concept of Milchemes Mitzvah?

What I am saying is that we see clearly from these Talmudic sources that Torah study takes precedence above all things. And even more than that, that Torah study provides protection. This is not my stance as much as the stance of the Talmud.

That doesn't mean that if someone is choking on the floor in the study-hall, that I can ignore him because Torah study is greater than saving a life. The exemption of "העוסק במצווה פטור מן המצווה" only applies when the other mitzvah is a "מצוה שאפשר לעשותה על ידי אחרים". So if no one else can do the Heimlich maneuver, then I am required to.

Of course, there are other exceptions to when we are required to disengage from Torah study. The question is whether the Israeli army represents an example of an exception to that rule. There are a number of cases in the Talmud of wars that were fought, where those that studied Torah were exempt (or where the one who conscripted them was punished):

סנהדרין מט א
אמר ליה עמשא אכין ורקין דרש אשכחינהו דפתיח להו במסכתא אמר כתיב (יהושע א, י&#1495

כל איש אשר ימרה את פיך ולא ישמע את דבריך לכל אשר תצונו יומת יכול אפילו לדברי תורה תלמוד לומר רק חזק ואמץ

בבא בתרא ז ב
אמר ריש לקיש רבנן לא צריכי נטירותא דכתיב (תהלים קלט, י&#1495

אספרם מחול ירבון

נדרים לב א
אמר רבי אבהו אמר רבי אלעזר: מפני מה נענש אברהם אבינו ונשתעבדו בניו למצרים מאתיים ועשר שנים? מפני שעשה אנגרייא בתלמידי חכמים, שנאמר: "וירק את חניכיו ילידי ביתו" (בראשית יד י&#1491

.

סוטה י א
דרש רבא מפני מה נענש אסא מפני שעשה אנגריא בתלמידי חכמים שנאמר (מלכים א טו, כ&#1489

והמלך אסא השמיע את כל יהודה אין נקי

And other cases, where it was the Torah students themselves who fought (such as the Hasmoneans). So we have to examine the cases to determine what constitutes a case where Torah study takes precedence and what for war. In this case, the Hareidi Rabbis determined that the Israeli army is not in a situation or represent a situation where those that study Torah should be conscripted. This doesn't apply to Hareidim alone, it applies to anyone who studies Torah.

I do see on Wikipedia, that conscription refusal on religious grounds does fall under the category of Conscientious Objection, but maybe it only refers to refusal on grounds of religious pacifism?

Levite · Mar 19, 2014

Tumah said:
What I am saying is that we see clearly from these Talmudic sources that Torah study takes precedence above all things. And even more than that, that Torah study provides protection. This is not my stance as much as the stance of the Talmud.

And yet, ein somechin al ha-nes. Maybe Torah study provides some kind of protection in some fashion, and maybe it does not. But it isn't the kind of protection that can be relied upon to stop terrorists or patrol borders: people need to do those things.

That doesn't mean that if someone is choking on the floor in the study-hall, that I can ignore him because Torah study is greater than saving a life. The exemption of "העוסק במצווה פטור מן המצווה" only applies when the other mitzvah is a "מצוה שאפשר לעשותה על ידי אחרים". So if no one else can do the Heimlich maneuver, then I am required to.

Do you truly not see what an incredibly problematic worldview this represents? If someone is choking on the floor in the beis midrash, nobody should be thinking about whether or not anyone else around knows the Heimlich, or whether there might be someone closer or better suited to do the Heimlich, so that one does not have to get up from one's learning. One should immediately, without thought, leap to aid another and save a life.

And by the same token, it is simply indefensible to refrain from fulfilling one's duty to protect one's country, one's home, one's fellow Jews and other innocents, because one chooses to rely on there being others to do that in one's stead. Not when refusing to fulfill one's duty places one's fellow Jews and other citizens in harm's way, as a shield for the one who shirks danger and duty by sitting in the beis midrash.

I literally cannot understand how this is even debatable. How can these rabbis who advocate this live with themselves? Have they no decency, no rachmanus, no sense of even basic social obligation?

And it just adds insult to injury that not only do they expect to hide behind their fellow Jews as shields, but they expect the Israeli government to pay for them to do so. It's a shondeh. A bushah, a cherpah, a chelimah, and a chillul Hashem.

ametist · Mar 19, 2014

I dont think it is a solution to dismantle an existing jewish state. It is gonna be real bad if that is done. I wouldnt want that for myself I dont want them for them. Only its politics should change and they should stop seeing everyone as their enemy. Also those jews who dont support zionist politics shouldnt be excluded and belittled.

Tumah · Mar 19, 2014

Levite said:
And yet, ein somechin al ha-nes. Maybe Torah study provides some kind of protection in some fashion, and maybe it does not. But it isn't the kind of protection that can be relied upon to stop terrorists or patrol borders: people need to do those things.

I think you are conflating "miracle" and "supernatural". They are not the same. We just finished Purim, where we saw that the entire "miracle" of Purim was done without any supernatural actions. The fact that the Talmud claims that those that study Torah do not need to be guarded (as I've quoted from two different sources in my last two posts) suggests that it can be relied upon to stop terrorists and patrol borders. In fact, if you check up the entire passage you will see the discussion was actually in regards to city guards.

You can say, that you don't believe these Talmudic statements if you want. But exactly what you are saying it doesn't mean, is exactly what the passages seem to be saying.

Levite said:
Do you truly not see what an incredibly problematic worldview this represents? If someone is choking on the floor in the beis midrash, nobody should be thinking about whether or not anyone else around knows the Heimlich, or whether there might be someone closer or better suited to do the Heimlich, so that one does not have to get up from one's learning. One should immediately, without thought, leap to aid another and save a life.

I appreciate your opinion that there are things one should do without thought. However, I believe that Judaism advocates forethought in every action one does. Acting on impulse is, I believe, something to overcome.

Levite said:
And by the same token, it is simply indefensible to refrain from fulfilling one's duty to protect one's country, one's home, one's fellow Jews and other innocents, because one chooses to rely on there being others to do that in one's stead. Not when refusing to fulfill one's duty places one's fellow Jews and other citizens in harm's way, as a shield for the one who shirks danger and duty by sitting in the beis midrash.

I literally cannot understand how this is even debatable. How can these rabbis who advocate this live with themselves? Have they no decency, no rachmanus, no sense of even basic social obligation?

And it just adds insult to injury that not only do they expect to hide behind their fellow Jews as shields, but they expect the Israeli government to pay for them to do so. It's a shondeh. A bushah, a cherpah, a chelimah, and a chillul Hashem.

It seems I may have made a mistake. I took it as a given, since you are a Rabbi, that you were fluent in Aramaic and were able to understand the passages I have been quoting. But from your comments here, it seems that maybe this isn't true.

If you'd like, I can translate all the sources. Then you can either question why I hold such a strong belief in the Talmud or why I hold the Talmud to still be as applicable today as it was yesterday, or some such. It doesn't make any sense to me though, to ask all these questions that you've asked here, when I've listen 8 or 9 passages dealing with exactly these things.

Levite · Mar 19, 2014

Tumah said:
It seems I may have made a mistake. I took it as a given, since you are a Rabbi, that you were fluent in Aramaic and were able to understand the passages I have been quoting. But from your comments here, it seems that maybe this isn't true.

If you'd like, I can translate all the sources. Then you can either question why I hold such a strong belief in the Talmud or why I hold the Talmud to still be as applicable today as it was yesterday, or some such. It doesn't make any sense to me though, to ask all these questions that you've asked here, when I've listen 8 or 9 passages dealing with exactly these things.

I understood them just fine. But some of them I don't believe are relevant to the argument for which you're trying to use them as proofs, and the others are not passages I believe we are obligated to view as halachically binding and inflexible, especially when there are a plethora of contrary opinions in both Mishnah and Gemara.

Your issue is not that I don't understand the texts, it's that I'm not willing to read them the way you do, in part because I don't read Gemara the way it is read in most Orthodox circles these days.

Jayhawker Soule · Mar 19, 2014

Levite said:
... I'm not willing to read them the way you do, in part because I don't read Gemara the way it is read in most Orthodox circles these days.

Interesting point. Thanks.

Tumah · Mar 19, 2014

Levite said:
I understood them just fine. But some of them I don't believe are relevant to the argument for which you're trying to use them as proofs, and the others are not passages I believe we are obligated to view as halachically binding and inflexible, especially when there are a plethora of contrary opinions in both Mishnah and Gemara.

Your issue is not that I don't understand the texts, it's that I'm not willing to read them the way you do, in part because I don't read Gemara the way it is read in most Orthodox circles these days.

Well since you:
1. Didn't express any understanding in the position I laid out for you
2. Didn't explain that you didn't believe certain passages were relevant and why
3. Didn't provide any contrary opinion from the Talmud
4. Did rehash your original complaints in a manner that suggested you completely ignored everything I had written until then

I'm sure you can understand why I assumed that you might have been having trouble.

Still, according to what you are saying now, it seems as though you do understand our position and its Talmudic basis. Rather you only believe that the Talmud is not a relevant source for basing one's position in this matter.

2ndpillar · Mar 19, 2014

Pink Top Hat said:
Pink Top Hat said:

"The zionists created all these problem with the arabs, and now they want to drag us to fight their wars for them"

"Judaism and Zionism cannot co exist"

Click to expand...

Dear pink,
You might want to pick up a history book and read about the 1st World War, and the set up for the present problems. It was the incompetent British who failed miserably to initially topple the weak Ottoman empire because of pure stupidity and arrogance, and then had to conjoin with the head mullah of Mecca, king Hussein bin Ali, in order to form a pact which to this day, as in 9/11, has had repercussions. It is the Wahhabism sect, based in Arabia, which was strengthened at that time, which is responsible for much of the terrorism throughout the world, including in the U.S..

Hussein bin Ali, Sharif of Mecca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nakosis · Mar 20, 2014

I don't know what is meant by an illegal creation of a state. Since I don't recognized the civil authority of Jewish or Christian religious text...

The "right" of a state/country is through it ability to enforce borders and laws with-in those borders.

If Egypt goes in or Russia goes in to take over Israel then that's reality. Possession by force of arms.

Israel has it agenda, like the USA or any other country, whether you agree that agenda or not. As long as they have the strength to enforce that agenda, not much anyone can do about it.

metis · Mar 21, 2014

Nakosis said:
I don't know what is meant by an illegal creation of a state. Since I don't recognized the civil authority of Jewish or Christian religious text...

The "right" of a state/country is through it ability to enforce borders and laws with-in those borders.

If Egypt goes in or Russia goes in to take over Israel then that's reality. Possession by force of arms.

Israel has it agenda, like the USA or any other country, whether you agree that agenda or not. As long as they have the strength to enforce that agenda, not much anyone can do about it.

It's interesting that of all the new countries that were created during the 20th century, the only one that draws all these questions about its very existence is Israel.

Jews call for the dismantling of the Zionist state of Israel

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