I already explained how I detect the error of translation.36 minutes ago#14
You need to get some Arabic course then .
قالت is past tense just used google if you don't believe me .
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Jews, Ezra and Qur'an
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
You need to get some Arabic course then .
قالت is past tense just used google if you don't believe me .
So he maybe ignore that Jesus (pbuh) never EVER said "I am son of God"or "I am God" in bible?
"I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no-one comes to the Father except through me."
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
"I and the Father are one"
Jesus accepts worship. Jesus says things no mere rasool would say.
Are you kidding me? Just go read the New Testament. It is painfully obvious.
Tumah
Veteran Member
I know that it is past tense. And I pointed out that it also uses past tense when speaking about the Christians in the same ayah:I already explained how I detect the error of translation.36 minutes ago#14
You need to get some Arabic course then .
قالت is past tense just used google if you don't believe me .
وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ابْنُ اللَّهِ وَقَالَتِ النَّصَارَى الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ اللَّهِ ذَٰلِكَ قَوْلُهُم بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ يُضَاهِئُونَ قَوْلَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَبْلُ قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ
So if the Jews believing in Ezra as a son of god happened in the past but not anymore since it says وَقَالَتِ then Christians must also not believe that Jesus is the son of god anymore either since it says it for them too.
Thanks God that you are convinced that it's about past tense, not present.
it's suppose to help you make understand , but it's seems not yet
It's very simple, if Jews ceased to consider Ezra as son of God, so does not forcely mean that Christian cease to consider Jesus (pbuh) as son of God.
Tumah
Veteran Member
If it doesn't mean that Christians cease to consider Jesus son of god even though it says وَقَالَتِ, then it also doesn't mean that Jews cease to consider Ezra son of god when it says وَقَالَتِThanks God that you are convinced that it's about past tense, not present.
it's suppose to help you make understand , but it's seems not yet
It's very simple, if Jews ceased to consider Ezra as son of God, so does not forcely mean that Christian cease to consider Jesus (pbuh) as son of God.
It's like I ask for number of telephone, you give me book author adress.
Actually the verse not talking about who ceased or not.
it's talking about events happened in past.full stop.
So also God said Jews in period of time worshiped a calf, so you are not cease to worship the calf ?
Tumah
Veteran Member
Yes? And because of those events that happened in the past ... قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ ...today?
That doesn't make any sense does it?
So also God said Jews in period of time worshiped a calf, so you are not cease to worship the calf ?[/QUOTE]
Its like I ask for telephone number and you give me author address. The calf isn't mentioned in this ayah.
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
But Godo knows what Bible is supposed to say even if you don't
I know what Bible says about Jesus(pbuh).
Despite I believe it's corrupted, I find there is big distinction between teaching/words of Jesus(pbuh).
and teaching of Church.
Jesus(pbuh) said: I pray to God.
Chruch: no, Jesus (pbuh) you are God too.
Is not joke ?
As you see this event maybe did not mention in Jewish history , but it's mentionned in Quran.
As I say God used whatever tense He want , He even used past tense to mention to future, because of all events are already happened to Him.
Seems you need to learn Arabic and it's skills,
قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ , it's like wondering and warning at same time,which may hinted by question mark in English.
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ukok102nak
Active Member
We read in surah 9 ayah 30:
"The Jews call Uzair [Ezra] the son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (in this) they are intimate; what the unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth."
Whilst the Christians preach Jesus is the Divine Son, I have never heard or read of any Jews, past or present, call Ezra the son of G-d. As far as I'm aware, this would be blasphemy and has never happened.
So here are my questions:
1) Is there any historical proof of this outside of the Qur'an?
2) What does 'In this they are intimate' mean?
3) Where do RF's Jewish members think this idea came from?
Blessings
~;> from our gathered knowledge
and
with the help of good blessings from our
almighty god the father and his
only begotten son of god
Christjesus our lord and savior
when that time comes ... .
when christjesus took the form of a human being
he was been tempted also by some people during those time by thinking ill of him
and this are the words they said
:read: (so as it is written)
Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged.
Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth.
Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education.
He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord.
He was made to reprove our thoughts.
He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, his ways are of another fashion.
We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father.
Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him.
For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies.
Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience.
Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected. Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness hath blinded them.
thats why
the mysteries of god were been kept hidden unto those some people who thinking ill of him . ... .
As for the mysteries of God, they kn ew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls.
For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity.
Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.
if we may say so
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
ukok102nak
Active Member
~;> we believed that you and your people who truly believed in good words of the merciful allah
are good and kindhearted people also
and
we believed also again that the words of
christjesus the only begotten son of god
our lord and saviour
is not corrupted
and could you kindly cite verses in the bible which corrupted as what you've said
now
remember that the acrhangel gabriel is the one who spoke to muhammad
meaning
the revealation of koran must corroborate unto the written words of god in the bible
. ... just for a thought
if we may say so ... .
:ty:
godbles
unto all always
ukok102nak
Active Member
- ~;> by the way
is there anyone here
who are familiar about this writtings
as it is written
:read:
The Seven Sleepers (Arabic: اصحاب الکھف aṣḥāb al kahf, "companions of the cave") of Ephesus are legendary people in a story of a group of youths who hide inside a cave outside the city of Ephesus around 250 AD, to escape a persecution. The king forced all his kingdom to worship idols and whoever did not would be killed. These men escaped as their faith in God (their belief varies by regional origin) was strong, and they refused to worship idols. The story is one of the many examples of the legend about a man who falls asleep and years after wakes up to find the world changed.
Another version is that Decius ordered them imprisoned in a closed cave to die there as punishment for being Christians. Having fallen asleep inside the cave, they purportedly awoke approximately 180 years later during the reign of Theodosius II, following which they were reportedly seen by the people of the now-Christian city before dying.
The earliest version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop Jacob of Sarug (c. 450–521), which is itself derived from an earlier Greek source, now lost.[1] An outline of this tale appears in Gregory of Tours (b. 538, d. 594), and in Paul the Deacon's (b. 720, d. 799) History of the Lombards. The best-known Western version of the story appears in Jacobus de Voragine's Golden Legend.
The Roman Martyrology mentions the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus under the date of 27 July (June according to Vatican II calendar), as follows: "Commemoration of the seven Holy Sleepers of Ephesus, who, it is recounted, after undergoing martyrdom, rest in peace, awaiting the day of resurrection."[2] The Byzantine Calendar commemorates them with feasts on 4 August and 22 October.
The story has its highest prominence, however, in the Muslim world; it is told in the Qur'an (Surah 18, verse 9–26). The Quranic rendering of this story does not state exactly the number of sleepers Surah 18, verse 22. It also gives the number of years that they slept as 300 solar years (equivalent to 309 lunar years). Unlike the Christian story, the Islamic version includes mention of a dog who accompanied the youths into the cave, and was also asleep, but when people passed by the cave it looked as if the dog was just keeping watch at the entrance, making them afraid of seeing what is in the cave once they saw the dog. In Islam, these youths are referred to as "The People of the Cave".
. ... just askin
if we may say so ... .
and another thing
we find this writtings corroborates
with the said statement above
so as it is written
:read:
Surah 18, verse:
7. Verily! We have made that which is on earth as an adornment for it, in order that We may test them (mankind) as to which of them are best in deeds.
8. And verily! We shall make all that is on it (the earth) a bare dry soil.
9. Do you think that the people of the Cave and the Inscription were a wonder among Our Signs?
10. When the young men fled for refuge to the Cave, they said: "Our Lord! Bestow on us mercy from Yourself, and facilitate for us our affair in the right way!"
11. Therefore We covered up their hearing in the Cave for a number of years.
12. Then We woke them up, that We might test which of the two parties was best at calculating the time period that they had tarried.
13. We narrate unto you their story with truth: Truly! They were young men who believed in their Lord, and We increased them in guidance.
14. And We made their hearts firm and strong when they stood up and said: "Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, never shall we call upon any deity other than Him; if we did, we should indeed have uttered an enormity in disbelief.
15. "These our people have taken for worship deities other than God. Why do they not bring for them a clear authority? And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against God?
16. (The young men said to one another): "And when you withdraw from them, and that which they worship, except God, then seek refuge in the Cave, your Lord will open a way for you from His Mercy and will make easy for you your affair (i.e. will give you what you will need of provision, dwelling, etc.)."
17. And you might have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the midst of the Cave. That is of the signs of God. He whom God guides, is rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no friend to lead him.
18. And you would have thought them awake, while they were asleep. And We turned them on their right and on their left sides, and their dog stretching forth his two forelegs at the entrance. Had you looked at them, you would certainly have turned back from them in flight, and would certainly have been filled with awe of them.
19. Likewise, We awakened them that they might question one another. A speaker from among them said: "How long have you stayed?" They said: "We have stayed a day or part of a day." They said: "Your Lord knows best how long you have stayed. So send one of you with this silver coin of yours to the town, and let him find out which is the good lawful food, and bring some of that to you. And let him be careful and let no man know of you.
20. "For if they come to know of you, they will stone you or turn you back to their religion, and in that case you will never be successful."
21. And thus We made their case known to the people, that they might know that the Promise of God is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour. (Remember) when they (the people of the city) disputed among themselves about their case, they said: "Construct a building over them, their Lord knows best about them," (then) those who won their point said (most probably the disbelievers): "We verily shall build a place of worship over them."
22. (Some) say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them; (others) say they were five, the dog being the sixth, guessing at the unseen; (yet others) say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say (O Muhammad ): "My Lord knows best their number; none knows them but a few." So debate not (about their number, etc.) except with the clear proof (which We have revealed to you). And consult not any of them (people of the Scripture, Jews and Christians) about (the affair of) the people of the Cave.
23. And never say of anything, "I shall do such and such thing tomorrow."
24. Except, "If God wills!" And remember your Lord when you forget and say: "It may be that my Lord guides me unto a nearer way of truth than this."
25. And they stayed in their Cave three hundred (solar) years, and add nine (for lunar years).
26. Say: "God knows best how long they stayed. With Him is the secrets of the heavens and the earth. How clearly He sees and hears! They have no protector other than Him, and He makes none to share in His Decision and His Rule."
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
- ~;> by the way
mojtaba
Active Member
A better translation for the verse,
The Jews say, ‘Uzair is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘Christ is the son of Allah.’ That is an opinion that they mouth, imitating the opinions of the faithless of former times. May Allah assail them, where do they stray?!
You can not find any historical proof that those Jews who were in the time of Prophet Muhammad and believed in that incorret belief complained from Prophet Muhammad that they do not have that belief . So, it could be understood from that verse that there was a group of Jews in the time of Prophet Muhammad that had that belief.
This idea is not odd. You may say that there is not any thing about being son of God( i.e., having a Divine nature ) in Torah, so how did those Jews believe in that thing for Uzair?
But, this can not reject my theory. Because the people of Prophet Moses(pbuh) used to pray idol, even in the time of Moses, their Prophet. Indeed, Torah implies that Jews had an influenced nature and were affected by other polytheists of their times. For example, after many miracles of Moses and the order of God to not making any image and idol for praying it( See, Exodus 20:3, 4 and 5 ), according to Torah, people of Moses asked Aaron to make an idol for them( See Exodus 32:1 ). Indeed, they were affeted by the theology of polytheists of Egypt who prayed idols, so that acted a doing that the teachings of Moses and the order of God did not let them.
So, it is not odd that some Jews in the time of Prophet Muhammad were affected by the polytheists of their time who before them believed in Divine nature for different beings, so that imitated them and believed in what is against their Holy books. The verse of Holy Quran implies this mimicing from other polytheists( The Jews say, ‘Uzair is the son of Allah' .... That is an opinion that they mouth, imitating the opinions of the faithless of former times ).
The Jews say, ‘Uzair is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘Christ is the son of Allah.’ That is an opinion that they mouth, imitating the opinions of the faithless of former times. May Allah assail them, where do they stray?!
You asked, 'Is there any historical proof of this outside of the Qur'an?'
You can not find any historical proof that those Jews who were in the time of Prophet Muhammad and believed in that incorret belief complained from Prophet Muhammad that they do not have that belief . So, it could be understood from that verse that there was a group of Jews in the time of Prophet Muhammad that had that belief.
This idea is not odd. You may say that there is not any thing about being son of God( i.e., having a Divine nature ) in Torah, so how did those Jews believe in that thing for Uzair?
But, this can not reject my theory. Because the people of Prophet Moses(pbuh) used to pray idol, even in the time of Moses, their Prophet. Indeed, Torah implies that Jews had an influenced nature and were affected by other polytheists of their times. For example, after many miracles of Moses and the order of God to not making any image and idol for praying it( See, Exodus 20:3, 4 and 5 ), according to Torah, people of Moses asked Aaron to make an idol for them( See Exodus 32:1 ). Indeed, they were affeted by the theology of polytheists of Egypt who prayed idols, so that acted a doing that the teachings of Moses and the order of God did not let them.
So, it is not odd that some Jews in the time of Prophet Muhammad were affected by the polytheists of their time who before them believed in Divine nature for different beings, so that imitated them and believed in what is against their Holy books. The verse of Holy Quran implies this mimicing from other polytheists( The Jews say, ‘Uzair is the son of Allah' .... That is an opinion that they mouth, imitating the opinions of the faithless of former times ).
See the correct translation.
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It's actually "imitate" not "intimate", as the original source says.
Tumah
Veteran Member
I don't think All-h's inability to use consistent tensing for the benefit of His readers is an Arabic skill.
But you realize, you just invalidated your entire point. If All-h uses whatever tense he wants, then even when He uses past, He means present. You no longer have any proof that its not talking about in Muhammad's time. When He says وَقَالَتِ using past tense, He really means present (to time of Muhammad), just everything is past tense for Him.
The whole surah is about how to presently deal with the kuffar (9:2, etc.). It starts off talking about the sin of الْمُشْرِكِينَ in the beginning of the surah (9:4, etc.) and how to deal with them (9:14, etc.). Then it moves on to the sin of الْيَهُودُ and النَّصَارَى in (9:30, etc.) and how to deal with them (9:34, etc.).
If you want to say that the Qur'an is saying that the Jews at one time in the past worshiped Ezra, then you have to explain why the ayah says قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ ? Why is the Qur'an exclaiming that All-h should kill them now, for a sin they did in the past, but no longer do?
Your argument is just not logical. You want to separate the first five words of the ayah away from the entire surah and the rest of the ayah itself, because otherwise it would be wrong. Any argument that you have to do that, would make the entire Qur'an useless because that would mean that you can never know when the Qur'an is talking about anything.
Maybe the first part of the surah where it talks about mushrikeen is something that hasn't happened yet? Maybe really you are supposed to make treaties with mushrikeen who break oaths and only sometime in another 300 or 400 years from now is when you are supposed to stop? Because All-h uses all different tenses because He is in all times. So we never know when he means past or present or future.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Is it odd to you that Muhammad would address the alyahoodu as though believing Ezra is the son of god is something they all do?