Jews in Germany

[Jake1001]

Celebrating 1700 years of Jewish life in Germany | DW | 05.01.2021

How did Jews get to Germany? Were they treated well until Fascism ? What were the best years in Germany?

 

[Harel13]

The article's interesting, but I don't know what there is to celebrate.

 

[Heyo]

Celebrating 1700 years of Jewish life in Germany | DW | 05.01.2021

How did Jews get to Germany? Were they treated well until Fascism ? What were the best years in Germany?

I didn't know that Jewish life in Germany was that old. I know, through my hobby, living history, a little about Jewish life in the middle ages. Many popes had Jewish personal doctors. They were simply the best in that profession at the time.
But it wasn't that they always and everywhere had a high reputation. There were numerous pogroms, too many to count. Especially during the plague(s) Jews were accused of having poisoned the wells. They became the go-to scapegoat whenever something went wrong.
Some local aristocrats tried to use that to their advantage and invited Jews who were running from prosecution elsewhere and offered them protection. But even that backfired sometimes. Royal protection was a double-edged sword. The protected class had to be protected by the authorities but at the same time were forbidden to protect themselves (couldn't carry weapons). When the authority couldn't deliver on it's promise of protection, the Jews were unarmed.

Jews were rarely integrated into society. Firstly, society was heavily segmented already. There were no such ideas as equality. Secondly, the Jews liked their status or at least didn't mind. They had their own quarters, their own privileges and their own restrictions and often their own laws and courts. Often they were banned from "honest" professions and driven into low reputation jobs like lawyer, banker, doctor and merchant.
(Yep, those were low reputation in the middle ages. Money lending for interest was forbidden to Christians (as it is still today for Muslim).)

 

[Sirona]

Two years ago, a criminal attempted to storm the Halle synagogue on Yom Kippur. He only failed because the synagogue had installed a special extra safe door.

Halle synagogue shooting - Wikipedia

Throughout the Middle Ages, Jews were blamed, persecuted and killed, similarly to "witches", for things like failed harvests or diseases.

Watched a documentary about the mindset of German Jews in their 20s. They said they wanted to be treated like everybody else, while at the same time believing in their special tradition. I found it a bit contradictory, but I'm not a Jew. One of the young Jews complained about special, overly compassionate treatment from her schoolteacher while the class was watching a film about the Holocaust. The teacher allegedly said that "If it's too much for you, you can leave the classroom". The young Jews said they didn't like to be identified with the Holocaust only, that "Judaism is a living culture" different from the Holocaust; however, the focus on the Holocaust is a very distinct attitude of Germans for the obvious reasons.

 

[Sirona]

Many popes had Jewish personal doctors.

The irony is that Hitler had a Jewish personal doctor. Can't make this up.

 

[Onoma]

Pretty cool, I had no idea until I started researching my family tree a few years back. The history of the Ashkenazi is pretty fascinating

 

[Flankerl]

How did Jews get to Germany?

Well when?
The Jews who lived in Roman Empire Germania Inferior and Superior weren't the same people who lived in the Holy Roman Empire.

Were they treated well until Fascism ?

lol?

What were the best years in Germany?

Arguably when Napoleon forced the Germans to make us equal before the law.
So roughly from 1806 to 1813.

I didn't know that Jewish life in Germany was that old.

Because it isn't.
When the Roman Empire lost control of Germania Inferior and Superior the Jewish community which got there through slavery and merchants vanished.

It would take another 600 years for there again to be Jews in what is today Germany.

Secondly, the Jews liked their status or at least didn't mind. They had their own quarters, their own privileges and their own restrictions and often their own laws and courts.

The first sentence is simply not true.
There was nothing to be done about it. Whether we liked it or not was not up for discussion.
There is a reason most of us moved further to the east until we arrived in Poland where we had the best of times in the Middle Ages.

He only failed because the synagogue had installed a special extra safe door.

Uh no. It's not a special extra safe door that was installed.
It was simply an old wooden door he failed to open.

Watched a documentary about the mindset of German Jews in their 20s. They said they wanted to be treated like everybody else, while at the same time believing in their special tradition. I found it a bit contradictory, but I'm not a Jew.

If a Hindu moves to a non-Hindu country should he be expected to become non-Hindu?

Same thing.

One of the young Jews complained about special, overly compassionate treatment from her schoolteacher while the class was watching a film about the Holocaust. The teacher allegedly said that "If it's too much for you, you can leave the classroom". The young Jews said they didn't like to be identified with the Holocaust only, that "Judaism is a living culture" different from the Holocaust; however, the focus on the Holocaust is a very distinct attitude of Germans for the obvious reasons.

The problem is you don't know how many Germans are.
They basically go into overdrive when they find out you are a Jew.

Furthermore Germany has no problem at all with dead Jews. They are great. Once a year you go to a memorial, lay down a wreath and that's it.
These dead Jews have no opinion of their own. Absolutely perfect.

Living Jews are far more annoying with their own opinions and sometimes they even talk back.
What is even worse is that these living Jews aren't like the Jews from German history books.
For some unknown reason they aren't as liberal, as assimilated as the Jews who for some unknown reason vanished into thin air between 1933 and 1945.
So annoying.

 

[Harel13]

Celebrating 1700 years of Jewish life in Germany | DW | 05.01.2021

Is there room somewhere among all of the celebrating for the remnants of Germany-controlled Austria to give back all the old & rare books they confiscated from my great-grandfather's bookshop? I'm willing to negotiate the store building itself, but we'd like the books back...

 

[Sirona]

@Flankerl said:Uh no. It's not a special extra safe door that was installed.
It was simply an old wooden door he failed to open.

This is not true.

“The gunman shot at the door's lock repeatedly and set off an explosive but the door was not breached, in part because the synagogue's security system had been recently upgraded”, Source:
Halle synagogue was fortified before antisemitic attack

Flankerl said:The problem is you don't know how many Germans are.

I am German, but of course I cannot speak for many or all Germans. Never claimed to. Moreover, I have a visible handicap so I know what discrimination can be like.

@Flankerl said: They basically go into overdrive when they find out you are a Jew.

Sorry to hear that, but maybe some people get shunned for reasons of behaviour like a possibly inappropriately abrasive style of responding rather than for their religion in the first place.

@Flankerl said: Furthermore Germany has no problem at all with dead Jews. They are great. Once a year you go to a memorial, lay down a wreath and that's it.These dead Jews have no opinion of their own. Absolutely perfect.

This point was mentioned by the young Jews in the documentary I referred to. You can watch it here:

Living Jews are far more annoying with their own opinions and sometimes they even talk back.
What is even worse is that these living Jews aren't like the Jews from German history books.
For some unknown reason they aren't as liberal, as assimilated as the Jews who for some unknown reason vanished into thin air between 1933 and 1945.
So annoying.

And yet some young Jews want to live in Germany today. Here’s an article about Jews in Germany today: Jews in Germany don't need special treatment any more | Opinion

Almost 75 years have passed since Germany stopped running its program of extermination to rid the world of Jews and it has become a country which actually attracts many Jews to come and live there. It has not been an easy ride. Many post-Holocaust second-generation Jews did not want to stay and by 1989, the dwindling Jewish community in Germany numbered fewer than 30,000 members.
So an emergency solution to prevent the community from dying out totally was found, by bringing in "new" Jews. In the 1990s, after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, more than 200,000 Jews from the FSU states accepted an open offer of visas made by the German government, and took up residence in Germany. Another group of non-German Jews finding Germany and especially Berlin attractive are young Israelis. The number of Israelis currently living in Berlin has been estimated at between 10-30,000.

 

[Flankerl]

This is not true.

You shouldn't believe everything the English media writes all day.
It was just a regular door out of oak that was installed in 2010 because the old one had become too old.

The now new door is an actual security door with a steel plate inside.

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesells...r-die-mehr-als-50-leben-rettete/25846426.html

Sorry to hear that, but maybe some people get shunned for reasons of behaviour like a possibly inappropriately abrasive style of responding rather than for their religion in the first place.

So it's our fault.
I mean I get it, we obviously live a way too open lifestyle already.
We are basically proclaiming our Jewishness from every corner and obviously don't take our names out of the telephone book or hang the mezuzah next to the front door.

This point was mentioned by the young Jews in the documentary I referred to. You can watch it here:

Yeah I know the documentary.
They want to live as Jews in Germany.
You find that "contradictory".

And yet some young Jews want to live in Germany today. Here’s an article about Jews in Germany today: Jews in Germany don't need special treatment any more | Opinion

You are quite literally writing with a Jew in Germany.
But please tell me more.

 

[Sirona]

The article @Jake1001 mentioned (Celebrating 1700 years of Jewish life in Germany | DW | 05.01.2021) is from Deutsche Welle, a German public state-owned international broadcaster funded by the German federal tax budget.


I think the whole article is an attempt to make some kind of paradigm shift to arouse sympathy among Germans for Jews living now. Of course, each of these attempts is clumsy in every direction, so it is unlikely to satisfy anyone.

 

[Sirona]

Yeah I know the documentary.
They want to live as Jews in Germany.
You find that "contradictory".

I have a right to my opinion. One already learns in kindergarden that kids who claim to be "special" are likely to be shunned by all the other so-called "normal" kids. I don't have the qualification to explain this mechanism and it's definititely horribly bad but it's a very basic aspect of human nature. We had a Jehovah's Witness kid in my class who wouldn't celebrate Christmas and Easter with the rest because he was obeying "Jehovah's command", so of course he was shunned. I don't endorse violence, crimes or discrimination of any kind, but I think it is contradictory to want to have it both ways. When people claim to be "special" with regard to a religion or any other matter, they have to be aware that they are more likely to cause rejection than approval. I don't say this is a good thing, but not being aware of this mechanism appears like denial or incredible naivety to me.

 

[Jake1001]

Vienna has a great archeological exhibit at the Judenplatz. Has anyone been there ?

 

[Jake1001]

The article's interesting, but I don't know what there is to celebrate.

Agreed, Harel, The Germans celebrate, not the Jews.

 

[Flankerl]

I have a right to my opinion.

Sure just like you can ignore input from people who know better.

One already learns in kindergarden that kids who claim to be "special" are likely to be shunned by all the other so-called "normal" kids.

What the hell are you even writing.
Wanting to be Jewish in Germany is already asking to be special?

Are you drunk? It's not even 5pm yet.

I don't endorse violence, crimes or discrimination of any kind, but I think it is contradictory to want to have it both ways.

Right. Said the Hindu in Germany.

When people claim to be "special" with regard to a religion or any other matter, they have to be aware that they are more likely to cause rejection than approval.

Perhaps you just shouldn't write anything.
Simply living a Jewish life in Germany is not asking to be above everyone else.

 

[Jake1001]

I didn't know that Jewish life in Germany was that old. I know, through my hobby, living history, a little about Jewish life in the middle ages. Many popes had Jewish personal doctors. They were simply the best in that profession at the time.
But it wasn't that they always and everywhere had a high reputation. There were numerous pogroms, too many to count. Especially during the plague(s) Jews were accused of having poisoned the wells. They became the go-to scapegoat whenever something went wrong.
Some local aristocrats tried to use that to their advantage and invited Jews who were running from prosecution elsewhere and offered them protection. But even that backfired sometimes. Royal protection was a double-edged sword. The protected class had to be protected by the authorities but at the same time were forbidden to protect themselves (couldn't carry weapons). When the authority couldn't deliver on it's promise of protection, the Jews were unarmed.

Jews were rarely integrated into society. Firstly, society was heavily segmented already. There were no such ideas as equality. Secondly, the Jews liked their status or at least didn't mind. They had their own quarters, their own privileges and their own restrictions and often their own laws and courts. Often they were banned from "honest" professions and driven into low reputation jobs like lawyer, banker, doctor and merchant.
(Yep, those were low reputation in the middle ages. Money lending for interest was forbidden to Christians (as it is still today for Muslim).)

I doubt the Jews liked their status. The rest of your post is accurate.

 

[Heyo]

I doubt the Jews liked their status. The rest of your post is accurate.

I haven't read about any protests or petitions. (But then again, would that have made it into the history books?) But Jews made their own ghettos even when they didn't had to. Preference or habit? I think it has to do with a sense of community and also of exceptionalism.

 

[Flankerl]