stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
That is what the Qur'an says ad nauseum. Only Muslims believe it.
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Jews in the Qur'an.
- Thread starter stevecanuck
- Start date
That is what the Qur'an says ad nauseum. Only Muslims believe it.
justaguy313
Active Member
From my experience from what I saw majority of muslims don't read the Bible or Torah or at least are very biased about it.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Good point. Despite the fact that the Qur'an advertises itself as "confirming what came before", no Muslims actually seem interested in "what came before it". I guess they think reading the update is all they need to do.
When it says given, it means here those who truly given, as in those who truly understand.
justaguy313
Active Member
And still though the evidence of importance of the Scriptures is in Quran itself
˹Remember˺ when the angels proclaimed, “O Mary! Allah gives you good news of a Word from Him, his name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary; honoured in this world and the Hereafter, and he will be one of those nearest ˹to Allah˺.
And he will speak to people in ˹his˺ infancy and adulthood and will be one of the righteous.”
Mary wondered, “My Lord! How can I have a child when no man has ever touched me?” An angel replied, “So will it be. Allah creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He simply tells it, ‘Be!’ And it is!
And Allah will teach him writing and wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel,
and ˹make him˺ a messenger to the Children of Israel ˹to proclaim,˺ ‘I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I will make for you a bird from clay, breathe into it, and it will become a ˹real˺ bird—by Allah’s Will. I will heal the blind and the leper and raise the dead to life—by Allah’s Will. And I will prophesize what you eat and store in your houses. Surely in this is a sign for you if you ˹truly˺ believe.
And I will confirm the Torah revealed before me and legalize some of what had been forbidden to you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be mindful of Allah and obey me.
Surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him ˹alone˺. This is the Straight Path.’”
-Surah Al Imran 45-51
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
That made no sense. It says no such thing.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
That quote neatly shows why Muslims have no cause to read the bible, as all they need to know from it is recounted in the Qur’an directly from God (so they believe).
The expression is found else where as well:
الَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يَتْلُونَهُ حَقَّ تِلَاوَتِهِ أُولَٰئِكَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ ۗ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْخَاسِرُونَ | Those to whom We have given the Book follow it as it ought to be followed: they have faith in it. As for those who deny it—it is they who are the losers. | Al-Baqara : 121
This verse is basically saying with true understanding of it - faith comes automatically and so does following it.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
This is talking about the Jews following the Torah.
Yes, but as in those who truly understood the Torah and Gospels and scripture between those two.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Right, which has nothing to do with the Qur'an's claim that The People of the Book believed the Qur'an. Your entire response is one big non sequitur.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Surah 33 was revealed after The Battle of the Trench, which occurred in the year 627 (5 years after the Hijrah, or 5 AH). Both Islamic and non-Islamic historians agree that this battle was fought in Yathrib (Medina) between the defending Muslims and the attacking Meccan Pagans and Jews previously expelled from Yathrib by Mohamed. In all previous engagements the Muslims were the aggressors, but this battle was an attack on them in an attempt to defeat them once and for all. It was a disaster for the Confederates, as they were called, who were soundly defeated by the defending Muslims thereby ending the Pagan's will and ability to defend themselves. After the battle Mohamed claimed he was visited by Gabriel who told him to attack the one remaining Jewish tribe in Yathrib; the Banu Quraiza (Mohamed had expelled the other two and confiscated their property). After a 2-week siege the Jews surrendered unconditionally, a decision that would lead to their annihilation at the hands of Mohamed's forces. All men and youths were beheaded (between 600 and 900 depending on the source), the women and children were taken as captives, and their property and possessions were distributed among Mohamed's fighters. That completed Mohamed's purge of Yathrib's Jews only 5 years after they welcomed him to their city.
Verses 33:26-27 are an outright admission that Mohamed presided over slaughter, enslavement, and theft; all perpetrated against Jews - "And He brought down those of the People of the Book who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror in their hearts; some you slew, some you made captive. And He bequeathed upon you their lands, their habitations, and their possessions." The phrase "those of the People of the Book who supported them" is an accusation that is unsupported by any other verse. Considering that verse 33:21 says Mohamed "is certainly a good example for those of you who have hope in God and the Day of Judgment and who remember God very often", the events of October 7, 2023, which included all of the elements above - terror, murder, and taking captives, should come as no surprise.
Verses 33:26-27 are an outright admission that Mohamed presided over slaughter, enslavement, and theft; all perpetrated against Jews - "And He brought down those of the People of the Book who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror in their hearts; some you slew, some you made captive. And He bequeathed upon you their lands, their habitations, and their possessions." The phrase "those of the People of the Book who supported them" is an accusation that is unsupported by any other verse. Considering that verse 33:21 says Mohamed "is certainly a good example for those of you who have hope in God and the Day of Judgment and who remember God very often", the events of October 7, 2023, which included all of the elements above - terror, murder, and taking captives, should come as no surprise.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Surah 59 refers to Mohamed's expulsion of the Jewish Banu Nadir tribe from their home city of Yathrib:
- 59:2 - "He [Allah] drove out the disbelievers from their homes ... they thought their fortresses would defend them from Allah ... but he cast terror into their hearts."
- 59:3 explains that Allah chose only banishment and an eventual eternity in Hell for them instead of inflicting a more earthly punishment - "And had it not been that Allah had decreed for them the exile, He would certainly have punished them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have chastisement of the fire."
- 59:4 finally gives the reason for the Jew's banishment, and in doing so reinforces that the only requirement for incurring Allah's wrath and for Muslims to step in and mete out punishment is for them to not accept Islam - "That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger."
- 59:2 - "He [Allah] drove out the disbelievers from their homes ... they thought their fortresses would defend them from Allah ... but he cast terror into their hearts."
- 59:3 explains that Allah chose only banishment and an eventual eternity in Hell for them instead of inflicting a more earthly punishment - "And had it not been that Allah had decreed for them the exile, He would certainly have punished them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have chastisement of the fire."
- 59:4 finally gives the reason for the Jew's banishment, and in doing so reinforces that the only requirement for incurring Allah's wrath and for Muslims to step in and mete out punishment is for them to not accept Islam - "That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger."
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Surah 62 takes ever more swipes at Jews:
- 62:5 sinks to name-calling as it compares Jews to donkeys saying they are able to carry a book, then implying they are unable to comprehend it - "Those who were to carry the responsibility of the Torah but ignored it, are like donkeys laden with books." This is followed by yet another reminder that denying Allah's word, as do the Jews (and everyone else who refuses to accept Mohamed's divine mission), is the worst of crimes - "How terrible is the example of the people who reject the revelations of God. God does not guide the unjust."
- 62:6-7 repeat the taunt from verses 2:94-96 - "Say [Mohamed]: You who are Jews! If you claim that you are favoured of Allah apart from mankind, then long for death if you are truthful. But they will not wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers."
- 62:8 directs another thinly veiled threat of Hell at the Jews - "Say [Mohamed], 'Indeed, the death from which you flee - indeed, it will meet you. Then you will be returned to the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, and He will inform you about what you used to do.'"
... continued.
- 62:5 sinks to name-calling as it compares Jews to donkeys saying they are able to carry a book, then implying they are unable to comprehend it - "Those who were to carry the responsibility of the Torah but ignored it, are like donkeys laden with books." This is followed by yet another reminder that denying Allah's word, as do the Jews (and everyone else who refuses to accept Mohamed's divine mission), is the worst of crimes - "How terrible is the example of the people who reject the revelations of God. God does not guide the unjust."
- 62:6-7 repeat the taunt from verses 2:94-96 - "Say [Mohamed]: You who are Jews! If you claim that you are favoured of Allah apart from mankind, then long for death if you are truthful. But they will not wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers."
- 62:8 directs another thinly veiled threat of Hell at the Jews - "Say [Mohamed], 'Indeed, the death from which you flee - indeed, it will meet you. Then you will be returned to the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, and He will inform you about what you used to do.'"
... continued.
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stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Verse 29:46 is another, along with 2:62 and 5:69, that at first glance appears to encourage tolerance of Jews and Christians rather than hostility towards them - "Dispute not with the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong." However, it also contains a variation of the same caveat, which in this case is "except for those of them that do wrong." As we have seen many times, refusing to accept the ministry of Mohamed and therefore Islam is the greatest wrong that can be committed.
.. continued (but close to the end)
.. continued (but close to the end)
Augustus
…
As has been pointed out to you many times, many non-Islamic historians (and some Islamic ones too) doubt the accuracy of the sirah, especially occasions of revelation literature.
There is no consensus on whether such a battle happened, and if it happened, what the context was.
Uncritically accepting theological narratives as fact is generally a poor approach to critical historical understanding.
You don't know how to contextualize words.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
The vast majority of Islamic scholars agree that the Battle of the Trench happened. The 'conderates' are mentioned by name in the Qur'an. Hmmm, who to believe, the Encylopedia Britannica or some internut rando????
Battle of the Ditch | Medina, Muhammad, Quraysh | Britannica
Battle of the Ditch, an early Muslim victory that ultimately forced the Meccans to recognize the political and religious strength of the Muslim community in Medina. A Meccan army of 3,000 men had defeated the undisciplined Muslim forces at Uḥud near Medina in 625, wounding Muhammad himself. In
Go away. I will no longer respond to your attempts at diversion.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
The part of your post in which you explain my ignorance must have been accedentally deleted.
Hint: Finding different ways to say "IS NOT" is not a rebuttal. Details are needed.