Jews in the Qur'an.

[Link]

Now I'm curious. Can you please explain this for me? I didn't think that Jews or Muslims believed in Jesus, at least in the sense that belief in Jesus is taught in most Christian faiths i.e. that He is the Son of God. Respectfully.

I think you can't derive Trinity from the Gospels, but rather it's a corrupt translation/interpretation by the Church. So Gospels still stand as a proof for Jesus (a) since they were revealed by God to Jesus (a) to different disciples which all differ and have commonality as well, just like many Surahs of Quran repeat stories from different angles and reflections.

 

[dybmh]

There is two things going on.

Well in a way you are correct.

1) I am asking for verses to support your position and there have been none. That's 1 thing.
2) I have found verses to support my position and those are being denied. That's 2 things.

Even if you saticfy #1, we'll still need to address #2 at some point. The reason that #2 keeps coming up is beccause those verses are so 100% absolutely crystal clear, that they are the standard for clarity. If you bring verses which are... let's call them, "flimsy" that's a problem. Up till now, there has not even been "flimsy" verses brought. I don't even know what you'r reading that is producing the conclusions you are coming from. The simplle easy answer is, you want compulsion in religion. And you want those who do not agree with you to be punished. Those would be your desires, Bro. It hass nothing to do with what's written.

When they hear what has been revealed to the Apostle, you see their eyes fill with tears because of the truth that they recognize. They say, ‘Our Lord, we believe; so write us down among the witnesses. | Al-Maaida : 83

How do they recongize the truth? Because it matches what was already revealed to them. Write them down as witnesses to what? To the revelation that they already recieved.

Why should we not believe in Allah and the truth that has come to us, eager as we are that our Lord should admit us among the righteous people?’

Why should we not beleive in Allah? Bro. What in the world are you thinking? Of course a Jewish person who does not believe in God cannnot be considered righteous. This has nothing to do with convertiing to Islam. This is standard monotheism.

So, for what they said, Allah requited them with gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them [forever], and that is the reward of the virtuous

And for what they said... that is not a conversion.

Now... what did you skip:

​

5:12​

​

And Allāh had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allāh said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakāh and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allāh a goodly loan,1 I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way."​

​

5:13​

​

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hardened. They distort words from their [proper] places [i.e., usages] and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded.1 And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allāh loves the doers of good.​

​

5:14​

​

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded.1 So We caused among them2 animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allāh is going to inform them about what they used to do.​

​

5:15​

​

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much.1 There has come to you from Allāh a light and a clear Book [i.e., the Qur’ān]​

​

5:16​

​

By which Allāh guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace1 and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.​

​

There you go. It's a "light book" a "clear book" which contains "much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much." In other words: everything that exists in the Quran already exists in the Torah and Tanach. Unless you actually bring verses about Jesus, there's no use discussing it.

Link, you're basically on the verge of going on ignore. I have no reason to listen to you if you are denying what is in the Quran. None. The same thing would happen if Satan was sitting next to me doing the same thing. I would simply turn away and ignore it. It's that simple. Steve doesn't go on ignore because he's not Muslim. Yes, that means I am holding you to higher standard. If a Muslim comes to me and is trying to convince me to ignore the Quran, I'm probably not going to argue. I'm just going to say, goodbye and goodluck.

 

[David1967]

I think you can't derive Trinity from the Gospels, but rather it's a corrupt translation/interpretation by the Church. So Gospels still stand as a proof for Jesus (a) since they were revealed by God to Jesus (a) to different disciples which all differ and have commonality as well, just like many Surahs of Quran repeat stories from different angles and reflections.

Thanks for clarifying. And, yes, the Trinity is a tough concept.

 

[dybmh]

The Quran also says those who truly been given the book before, believed in Mohammad (s):

It doesn't say that at all. I'm going to go through the remainder of your posts in this thread. If they do not say what you are claiming. That's it. I'm putting you on ignore.

Those to whom We gave the Book before it are the ones who believe in it, | Al-Qasas : 52

وَإِذَا يُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِمْ قَالُوا آمَنَّا بِهِ إِنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا مِنْ قَبْلِهِ مُسْلِمِينَ | and when it is recited to them, they say, ‘We believe in it. It is indeed the truth from our Lord. Indeed we were Muslims/Submitters [even] before it [came].’ | Al-Qasas : 53

أُولَٰئِكَ يُؤْتَوْنَ أَجْرَهُمْ مَرَّتَيْنِ بِمَا صَبَرُوا وَيَدْرَءُونَ بِالْحَسَنَةِ السَّيِّئَةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ | Those will be given their reward two times for their patience. They repel evil [conduct] with good, and spend out of what We have provided them, | Al-Qasas : 54

وَإِذَا سَمِعُوا اللَّغْوَ أَعْرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَقَالُوا لَنَا أَعْمَالُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَالُكُمْ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمْ لَا نَبْتَغِي الْجَاهِلِينَ | and when they hear vain talk, they avoid it and say, ‘Our deeds belong to us, and your deeds belong to you. Peace be to you. We do not court the ignorant.’ | Al-Qasas : 55

إِنَّكَ لَا تَهْدِي مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ | You cannot guide whomever you like, but [it is] Allah [who] guides whomever He wishes, and He knows best those who are guided. | Al-Qasas : 56

"We gave the Book before it are the ones who believe in it" <--- they believe in the previous revelation. There is no Muhammad.

"Indeed we were Muslims/Submitters [even] before it [came]." <--- they/we/me already believe in Isalm. No conversion. No Muhammad needed.

"Those will be given their reward two times for their patience. They repel evil [conduct] with good, and spend out of what We have provided them," <--- I repel evil. That's why I am getting ready to put you on ignore. You are propogating conflict and division.

"and when they hear vain talk, they avoid it and say, ‘Our deeds belong to us, and your deeds belong to you. Peace be to you. We do not court the ignorant." <--- the Quran is teaching me, and convincing me, to put you on ignore.

"You cannot guide whomever you like, but [it is] Allah [who] guides whomever He wishes, and He knows best those who are guided." <--- there you, Bro. YOU are not the guide. Allah guides whomever Allah wishes. The revelation has been recieved. It doesn't matter if it makes you mad, sad, happy, or glad. The Quran is teaching that Muhammad is NOT needed, but, it is impossible to deny it if a person adheres to the revelation already received. There is NOTHING NEW HERE.

In the post 79, I think that solves the issue.

Goood bye dude. Post 79 solves the problem. And the problem is YOU are denying what is written in order to make the Quran into something it isn't. Superior. And it might be beautiful and excellent and clear, and light. But that does not mean the message is NEW.

It can be unique, without the content of the message being new. You can still be special, and Allah did something special for those who are not in the House of Jacob. Love that. Be happy with that. Wanting the Quran to be superior is greedy.

But more than that, and this is important. As soon as a person claims that the previous revelation was inferior, that. No sir.

Now you're telling me that Allah failed somehow in the previous message. That Allah's guidance is somehow getting better with time.

Goodbye. I'm not interested in any of that. Maybe someday I'll find an Islam forum to discuss this with a more diverse audience.

 

[Link]

@dybmh I have not been able to prove the day of judgment as I perceive to Bahais. Maybe it's a me thing, that I can't prove things. Maybe it's not. I don't know. I know Nuh (a) as brilliant as he was, could not get much people to gather on the truth. But it maybe that I am not good at proving things as well. God is the best seer and judge of that. But I suggest reflecting over Quran holistically and trying to see what it says, never isolate a verse, but see in the bigger context.

In Quran, God and Messengers can't be separated. Belief in God and the signs of God also are one and the same. God is not his signs nor his Messengers, but they are linked in a way, that they prove each other at once. We talked about before about the lanterns in the sky who are the guides in the spiritual journey for example. Those lights are connected to testifying to God and seeing his glory and beauty.

You can do all that with it what you want. At the end the Quran could not solve disputes, because people, can interpret it per their desires.

The Ulil-Amr verse (4:59) has verses before and after, I would take a look. It going back verses including 4:54 really is saying to the people of the book, how do you accept the family of Abraham (a) and honor them as Authorities and guides and Messengers but deny the family of Mohammad (s)? Why do you see the legitimacy in the past, but reject the current version of the family of guidance? And it emphasis on believers to obey them rather then envying them and denying their station.

But you are isolating verses and not seeing them in their proper place. Anyways, you can put me ignore or not, I wished for you guidance, but I can't guide if God misguides.

 

[sun rise]

Why should we not beleive in Allah? Bro. What in the world are you thinking? Of course a Jewish person who does not believe in God cannnot be considered righteous. This has nothing to do with convertiing to Islam. This is standard monotheism.

Jews are strict monotheists as the Sh'ma clearly states. "Hear O’ Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One"

except a few of them.

Even the Quran does not disparage Jews and Christians but reflects how few are true believers which is entirely different.

 

[sun rise]

At the end the Quran could not solve disputes, because people, can interpret it per their desires.

That's the limitation of all scriptures and, outside of when I give in to the temptation to argue scripture why "the heart knows things that the mind does not begin to understand"

 

[dybmh]

Jews are strict monotheists as the Sh'ma clearly states. "Hear O’ Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One"

So is Islam. What is your point Sunrise? Are you making a distinction based on the name, Allah? God has many different names. It's all the same god.

Even the Quran does not disparage Jews and Christians but reflects how few are true believers which is entirely different.

That's an exact match for what is written in the "Prophets" in Tanach.

 

[dybmh]

@sunrise: does this help?

Quran 29:46

​

Do not argue with the People of the Book unless gracefully, except with those of them who act wrongfully. And say,​

​

“We believe in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to you. ​

Our God and your God is ˹only˺ One. And to Him we ˹fully˺ submit.”​

That's it. Done. Case closed.

 

[dybmh]

but I can't guide if God misguides.

You are not the guide!

Maybe it's a me thing, that I can't prove things.

Yes, it's a YOU thing. YOU ARE NOT THE GUIDE. It is not YOUR JOB to prove anything. That is what the Quran is teaching, but YOU ARE IGNORING IT.

At the end the Quran could not solve disputes

You just contradicted the Quran again. It says to look to the Quran to solve disputes. Yeah. I'm def done, Bro. You have deviated far and wide from this book you claim is holy.

 

[Link]

قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ أَرَأَيْتُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّي وَرَزَقَنِي مِنْهُ رِزْقًا حَسَنًا ۚ وَمَا أُرِيدُ أَنْ أُخَالِفَكُمْ إِلَىٰ مَا أَنْهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ ۚ إِنْ أُرِيدُ إِلَّا الْإِصْلَاحَ مَا اسْتَطَعْتُ ۚ وَمَا تَوْفِيقِي إِلَّا بِاللَّهِ ۚ عَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلْتُ وَإِلَيْهِ أُنِيبُ | He said, ‘O my people! Have you considered, should I stand on a manifest proof from my Lord, who has provided me a good provision from Himself? I do not wish to oppose you by what I forbid you. I only desire to put things in order, as far as I can, and my success lies only with Allah: in Him I have put my trust, and to Him I turn penitently. | Hud : 88

وَيَا قَوْمِ لَا يَجْرِمَنَّكُمْ شِقَاقِي أَنْ يُصِيبَكُمْ مِثْلُ مَا أَصَابَ قَوْمَ نُوحٍ أَوْ قَوْمَ هُودٍ أَوْ قَوْمَ صَالِحٍ ۚ وَمَا قَوْمُ لُوطٍ مِنْكُمْ بِبَعِيدٍ | O my people, do not let your opposition toward me lead you to be visited by the like of what was visited on the people of Noah, or the people of Hud, or the people of Salih, and the people of Lot are not distant from you. | Hud : 89

With peace.

 

[sun rise]

So is Islam. What is your point Sunrise? Are you making a distinction based on the name, Allah? God has many different names. It's all the same god.

No. I was emphasizing that both Muslims and Jews are strict monotheists.

 

[stevecanuck]

@dybmh here is what you did not answer:

What is the Qur'an if not those "signs"?

 

[stevecanuck]

No. I was emphasizing that both Muslims and Jews are strict monotheists.

When Mohamed started Islam in Mecca, he had the polytheism of the Pagans to preach against, but when he moved to Yathrib he didn't have any such complaint against the monotheistic Jews. He needed something else to complain about, so he lectured them endlessly based on the sins of the Jews of old and the fact that they weren't eager to accept his 'revelations' as a legitimate extension of the Torah/scriptures (the bible). The latter was actually their greatest 'sin', because it denied Mohamed the position of reverence and leadership that he so fervently desired.

 

[stevecanuck]

Verse 3:3 is worth a mention considering the spectacular denials to which we have been treated (I have added nothing to these. All bracketed explanations belong to the translators):


Sahih International: He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Pickthall: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

Shakir: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

Muhammad Sarwar: He has sent the Book (Quran) to you (Muhammad) in all Truth. It confirms the original Bible. He revealed the Torah and the Gospel

Mohsin Khan: It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

Arberry: He has sent down upon thee the Book with the truth, confirming what was before it, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

 

[Link]

When Mohamed started Islam in Mecca, he had the polytheism of the Pagans to preach against, but when he moved to Yathrib he didn't have any such complaint against the monotheistic Jews. He needed something else to complain about, so he lectured them endlessly based on the sins of the Jews of old and the fact that they weren't eager to accept his 'revelations' as a legitimate extension of the Torah/scriptures (the bible). The latter was actually their greatest 'sin', because it denied Mohamed the position of reverence and leadership that he so fervently desired.

There was a division in Yathrib. Many of them accepted Mohammad (s), some of them did not. The Quran says those who truly were given the book before, all believed in Mohammad (s) and that it was a sign that the knowledgeable ones of Bani-Israel all believed in him. The true sages who were known for piety and saints among them, testified to him.

Majority of Yathrib believed in Mohammad (s) though. I would say they weren't really Jews, and Quran didn't call the ones who accepted as that, but rather were not Trinity type Christians but accepted Jesus (a). They were Christians without trinity and originally from Bani-Israel ethnicity.

 

[Link]

No. I was emphasizing that both Muslims and Jews are strict monotheists.

Salam

@sun rise you know people testifying to God has always been many. It could not be that polytheists were condemned simply out of semantic debate that they should reserve divinity and worship for God. What is being condemned is the interior heart that equates others with God more then the theological semantics.

Fatima (a) in her famous speech in which she tried to awaken the nation to support the truth and the Ahlulbayt (a) said:

I bear witness that there is no God but Allah Who is One without partner; a statement which sincere devotion is made to be its interpretation, put into hearts its continuation, and illuminated in the minds its sensibility.

She was reminding them that religion is not just words we say. Similarly, Shias twelvers can deceive themselves about following Imams (a) while not following their light and Imam Jaffar (a) says:

Following the example of another is nothing more than what has been bestowed upon the spirit at its origin, when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity. Following a model, however, does not consist of adopting the marks of outward actions and claiming descent from the awliya' of the faith from among the wise and the Imams. As Allah said,

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

The day when We will call every people by their Imam. (17:71)

that is, whoever follows someone with effacement is pure. And elsewhere,

فَإِذَا نُفِخَ فِي الصُّورِ فَلَا أَنسَابَ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَلَا يَتَسَاءلُونَ

So when the trumpet is blown, there will be no ties of relationship between them on that day, nor shall they ask of each other. (23:101)

The Commander of the Faithful said, 'Souls are a drafted army. Those who know each other are intimate, and those who do not know each other differ from each other.' Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyah was asked who had taught him good manners, and he replied, 'My Lord taught me manners in myself. Whatever I find to be good in people of intelligence and insight I follow and use; whatever I find ugly in the ignorant I avoid and forsake forever. That has brought me to the path of knowledge. There is no sounder way for the astute believer than to follow the example of others, because it is the clearest path and soundest goal.' And Allah said to Muhammad, the greatest of His creation,

أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ

These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. (6:90)

Elsewhere He said,

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ أَنِ اتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Then We revealed to you: Follow the faith of Abraham, the upright one. (16:123)

If the faith of Allah had had a path straighter than following a model, He would have recommended it to His prophets and His supporters.

The Holy Prophet said, 'There is a light in the heart which is illuminated only by following the truth and intending towards the right path. It is a part of the light of the prophets which has been entrusted in the hearts of the believers.'

 

[stevecanuck]

There was a division in Yathrib. Many of them accepted Mohammad (s), some of them did not. The Quran says those who truly were given the book before, all believed in Mohammad (s) and that it was a sign that the knowledgeable ones of Bani-Israel all believed in him. The true sages who were known for piety and saints among them, testified to him.

Yes, in other words, some converted to Islam.

Majority of Yathrib believed in Mohammad (s) though. I would say they weren't really Jews, and Quran didn't call the ones who accepted as that, but rather were not Trinity type Christians but accepted Jesus (a). They were Christians without trinity and originally from Bani-Israel ethnicity.

Okay.

 

[stevecanuck]

Surah 3 continues to criticize 'the people of the book':

-3:19 states that Islam is the one true religion and that Jews and Christians disputed with each other over God's message out of animosity towards each other - "In the sight of God Islam is the religion. The People of the Book created differences in the matters (of religion) because of their hostility among themselves, only after knowledge had come to them. Let whoever denies the revelations of God know that the reckoning of God is swift."
- 3:20 indisputably separates Islam from Judaism and Christianity. At this point in the evolution of Islam Mohamed is required only to preach to them, as the command to fight "the people of the book" has not yet been issued. - "(Muhammad), if the People of the Book argue against you, say, "I and those who follow me have submitted ourselves to God." Ask the People of the Book and the illiterate ones, "Have you embraced Islam?" If they embrace Islam, they will find guidance but if they turn away, your task is just to preach. God knows all about His servants."
- 3:21-25 again accuse the Jews of killing God's previous messengers and promises a fiery forever to those of them who "turn away" from God's word - "Warn those who deny the revelations of God and unjustly slay the Prophets and those who call people to be just, that they will suffer a painful torment. The deeds of such people are made devoid of all virtue in both this life and the life to come. There will be no one to help them. (Muhammad), consider those who have received a share of the Book. When they refer to the Book in order to judge amongst themselves, a group of them turn away with disregard because of their belief that the fire will only touch them for a few days. This fabricated belief has deceived them in matters of their religion. What will happen to their belief when We bring them together on the Inevitable Day when every soul will be justly recompensed for its deeds?"

 

[Augustus]

- 3:20 indisputably separates Islam from Judaism and Christianity. At this point in the evolution of Islam Mohamed is required only to preach to them, as the command to fight "the people of the book" has not yet been issued. - "(Muhammad), if the People of the Book argue against you, say, "I and those who follow me have submitted ourselves to God." Ask the People of the Book and the illiterate ones, "Have you embraced Islam?" If they embrace Islam, they will find guidance but if they turn away, your task is just to preach. God knows all about His servants."

No it doesn't.

Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance). Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning. (19) And if they argue with thee, (O Muhammad), say: I have surrendered my purpose to Allah and (so have) those who follow me. And say unto those who have received the Scripture and those who read not: Have ye (too) surrendered? If they surrender, then truly they are rightly guided, and if they turn away, then it is thy duty only to convey the message (unto them).

Many scholars dispute the idea that the term Islam is even referring to a distinct religion at this phase. It takes a good 70 or so years AH for "Muslims" start to call themselves Muslims as a term of identity, around the same time that the Shahada changes to include "Muhammad is the messenger of God" as opposed to simply being a profession about God.

There are many good reasons to seeing the reification of a distinct sectarian identity as something that emerged long after Muhammad's death. religions tend not to emerge fully formed out of a bottle, but as schisms within existing faiths. As such, seeing Muhammad as a "Muslim" might well be as anachronistic as seeing Jesus as a "Christian". It may be a label applied retroactively based on future developments.

There are good arguments to be made for and against that position, but claiming it is "indisputable" is a claim that can only be made out of ignorance.