Jews in the Qur'an.

[stevecanuck]

Verses 5:59-69 continue the steady stream of accusations and recriminations based on the fact that 'The People of the Book' do not accept the Qur'an as the latest installment of God's revelations:
- 5:59 - "Say [Mohamed]: 'O people of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation [the Qur'an] that has come to us and that which came before, and that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"
- 5:60 - "Say, 'Should I tell you who will receive the worst punishment from God? Those whom God has condemned, afflicted with His anger, made apes out of them, swine and worshipers of Satan, will have the worst dwelling and will wander far away from the right path.'"
- 5:61 - "When they come to you, they say, 'We believe'; but they have entered in unbelief, and so they have departed in it."
Whomsoever God has cursed, and with whom He is wroth, and made some of them apes and swine.
- 5:62 - "You can see many of them competing with each other in sin, hostility, and in taking usury. What they had been doing was certainly evil."
- 5:63 - "Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their speaking evil and their devouring of illicit gain? Evil is their handiwork."
- 5:64 - "And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled [instead] and they shall be cursed for what they say ... and what has been revealed [the Qur'an] to you [Mohamed] from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers."
- 5:65 - "And if only the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] had believed and feared Allah, We would have removed from them their misdeeds and admitted them to Gardens of Pleasure."
- 5:66 - "If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord [as always, this allusion to the Qur'an is included when speaking of revelations from God], they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil."
- 5:67 - "Allah guides not the unbelieving folk."
- 5:68 yet again instructs Mohamed to tell Jews and Christians to believe the Qur'an despite the fact that most will not heed the call - "Say [Mohamed], 'O People of the Scripture, you are standing on nothing until you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you [the Qur'an] from your Lord.' And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people."
- 5:69 reiterates the message of 2:62 with the same caveat, which is that only the 'People of the Book' who have adopted Islam will qualify for the title of 'believer' - "Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Sabaeans, and those Christians, whosoever believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness -- no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow."

 

[stevecanuck]

Verses 5:70-71 revisit the accusation against the Jews that they either rejected or killed previous, and still unnamed, prophets:
5:70 - "We had already taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and had sent to them messengers. Whenever there came to them a messenger with what their souls did not desire, a party of messengers they denied, and another party they killed."
5:71 - "And they thought there would be no resulting punishment, so they became blind and deaf. Then Allah turned to them in forgiveness; then many of them became blind and deaf. And Allah is Seeing of what they do."

.. continued

 

[stevecanuck]

- 5:78-79 say that both David and Jesus cursed the Jews of their time - "Those of the Children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress. They restrained not one another from the wickedness they did. Verily evil was what they used to do!"
- 5:80-81 return to levelling accusations against the Jews of Mohamed's time by claiming they are trying to ally with the Pagans - "You see many of them becoming allies of those who disbelieved. How wretched is that which they have put forth for themselves in that Allah has become angry with them, and in the punishment they will abide eternally. If they believed in Allah and the Prophet and that which is revealed unto him, they would not choose them for their friends. But many of them are of evil conduct."

.. continued

 

[titani2]

Read the Quran. You won't regret.
(Quran 2:62)  Those who believed, and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, and acts righteously—will have their reward with their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. - Source www.quranful.com

 

[stevecanuck]

Verse 5:82 should be considered separately due to the effect its message has on today's world. Not only did it pit Jews and Muslims against each other in the 7th century, but because it is stated as a general truism irrespective of context, time, or place, it applies for all time where Muslims and Jews find themselves at odds. And we see it play out daily in the Holy Land - "You will find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe [Muslims] to be the Jews and idolaters."

 

[stevecanuck]

Read the Quran. You won't regret.

LOL! I've been reading it for 20+ years.

(Quran 2:62)  Those who believed, and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, and acts righteously—will have their reward with their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. - Source www.quranful.com

Read the thread. You won't regret. I covered that in post #14.

Have I misquoted or misrepresented anything? If so, please point it out and we'll discuss it.

 

[stevecanuck]

Read the Quran. You won't regret.
(Quran 2:62)  Those who believed, and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, and acts righteously—will have their reward with their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. - Source www.quranful.com

Anything further, or did I answer your concern adequately?

 

[Link]

Anything further, or did I answer your concern adequately?

One thing you are not familiar with is the modes of Quran as expanded by Imams (a) of Ahlulbayt. The primary purpose of the history of children of Israel after Musa (a) is not to convince Jews today that this is their true history, but it's to warn about the path of going astray with respect to the guidance of God for the nation of Mohammad (s). It is even explicitly stated in hadiths of Sunnis:

---

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 422:

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

That is from Sahih Bukhari.

Now if we are destined to go astray as them, then Quran and guidance of God serves no purpose. What is really meant, is that we would be similarly tried, and if we fail the tests like they failed, we will go same way.

The Quran shows what lead them astray and then as prelude to the verse of the light:

وَلَقَدْ أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكُمْ آيَاتٍ مُبَيِّنَاتٍ وَمَثَلًا مِنَ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ وَمَوْعِظَةً لِلْمُتَّقِينَ | Certainly We have sent down to you manifest signs and a description of those who passed before you, and an advice for the Godwary. | An-Noor : 34

This is why for example, Imams (a) would say regarding the verse about the Jews killing and denying Prophets (a) and say it really is revealed and means "every time there came to you a Mohammad with what you did not desire, some you..." . The original text is "every time there came to you a Messenger".

This is saying, we are similarly tried, but not with just Messengers (which in our case are not Nabis), but they are at the caliber of Mohammad (s).

So really, the condemnation of how bani-Isreal treated Prophets (a) is to show if things go wrong in this nation, what happened. And it's that the Imams (a) were rejected.

So Surah Baqara is multilayered in showing what went wrong especially up to the death of Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a).

So you make it as if it's concentrating on Jews but really it's using a magnifying glass on them, to show how nations went astray after accepting founders in the past, and how the nation of Mohammad (s) would go astray if they do go astray, and surely they have.

 

[stevecanuck]

One thing you are not familiar with is the modes of Quran as expanded by Imams (a) of Ahlulbayt. The primary purpose of the history of children of Israel after Musa (a) is not to convince Jews today that this is their true history, but it's to warn about the path of going astray with respect to the guidance of God for the nation of Mohammad (s). It is even explicitly stated in hadiths of Sunnis:

---

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 422:


That is from Sahih Bukhari.

Now if we are destined to go astray as them, then Quran and guidance of God serves no purpose. What is really meant, is that we would be similarly tried, and if we fail the tests like they failed, we will go same way.

The Quran shows what lead them astray and then as prelude to the verse of the light:

وَلَقَدْ أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكُمْ آيَاتٍ مُبَيِّنَاتٍ وَمَثَلًا مِنَ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ وَمَوْعِظَةً لِلْمُتَّقِينَ | Certainly We have sent down to you manifest signs and a description of those who passed before you, and an advice for the Godwary. | An-Noor : 34

This is why for example, Imams (a) would say regarding the verse about the Jews killing and denying Prophets (a) and say it really is revealed and means "every time there came to you a Mohammad with what you did not desire, some you..." . The original text is "every time there came to you a Messenger".

This is saying, we are similarly tried, but not with just Messengers (which in our case are not Nabis), but they are at the caliber of Mohammad (s).

So really, the condemnation of how bani-Isreal treated Prophets (a) is to show if things go wrong in this nation, what happened. And it's that the Imams (a) were rejected.

So Surah Baqara is multilayered in showing what went wrong especially up to the death of Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a).

So you make it as if it's concentrating on Jews but really it's using a magnifying glass on them, to show how nations went astray after accepting founders in the past, and how the nation of Mohammad (s) would go astray if they do go astray, and surely they have.

It's the same message for everyone - accept Mohamed's prophethood and the Qur'an. In other words, become Muslim. Mohamed used the threat of Hell against those who refused him until he gained enough military power to also threaten them with war.

Your religion is based entirely on fear, threats, and cooersion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"You will find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe [Muslims] to be the Jews and idolaters."

As opposed to the Christians .. yes.
There's a good reason for it .. we all know the history .. Ishmael & Isaac.

 

[stevecanuck]

Verse 5:82 should be considered separately due to the effect its message has on today's world. Not only did it pit Jews and Muslims against each other in the 7th century, but because it is stated as a general truism irrespective of context, time, or place, it applies for all time where Muslims and Jews find themselves at odds. The repercussions of it play out daily in the Holy Land - "You will find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe [Muslims] to be the Jews and idolaters."

.. continued

 

[stevecanuck]

@Link, I would appreciate hearing what you have to say about post #2, especially the confusing use of the second person when speaking of the Jews of old.

 

[stevecanuck]

In the middle of a section on allowed diet for Muslims, restrictions placed on Jews, along with the pejorative reason for it, are thrown in (6:146) - "We made unlawful for the Jews all the claw-footed animals, fat of the cows, sheep and goats except what is found on their backs, intestines and whatever is mixed with their bones. Thus, did We recompense them for their rebellion."

Surah 7, revealed well before the Hijra, tells the story of Moses and therefore contains many references to the sins of the Israelites, such as worshipping the golden calf and working on the Sabbath. However, unlike Surah 2 in which these sins were projected onto the Jews of Yathrib, Mohamed still resided in Mecca, so he merely recounted the story to his Pagan audience minus any current-day accusations against Jews. There are several other Meccan surahs that follow this pattern, and as such, will not be summarized as they provide little in the way of explaining relations between Jews and Muslims.

.. continued

 

[Link]

@Link, I would appreciate hearing what you have to say about post #2, especially the confusing use of the second person when speaking of the Jews of old.

We had a whole thread on it if I recall. You made one and it was discussed.

 

[Link]

Keep in mind, Imam Ali (a) went to Yemen (Jews) and they accepted Islam as soon as he preached to them.

 

[stevecanuck]

We had a whole thread on it if I recall. You made one and it was discussed.

Right you are. I went back and looked at it just now, and you completely dodged the question. As far as I'm concerned, the question still stands.

 

[Link]

Right you are. I went back and looked at it just now, and you completely dodged the question. As far as I'm concerned, the question still stands.

If you feel that way, I don't see how I would reply any different. I tried explaining to you norms of language.

 

[stevecanuck]

Verse 16:118 was another revealed before the Hijrah, and therefore any meaningful contact with Jews, but it foreshadows the relentless admonition to which they were destined to be subjected - "And unto those who are Jews ... We wronged them not, but they were wont to wrong themselves."

Verse 27:76, also pre-Hijrah, is a preview of the incessant command to the Jews to "believe what We have sent down" - "Surely this Quran declares to the children of Israel most of what they differ in."

 

[justaguy313]

It's really all interconnected since beginning of creation. Torah, Holy Bible and The Quran must be read together to understand the big picture.

 

[stevecanuck]

Verse 28:52 is worthy of note only for its confusing and contradictory message - "Those to whom We gave the Scripture [Jews and Christians] before it [the Qur'an], they believe in it." This contradicts all other verses on the subject which clearly and repeatedly state that "all but a few [Jews and Chrisians] disbelieved" in the Qur'an.

The next verse, 28:53, doubles down on the above assertion, but in doing so adds a claim that probably creates even more confusion, especially to those who are unfamiliar with Arabic - "When it [the Qur'an] is recited to them [Jews and Christians], they say, 'We believe in it. It is the Truth from our Lord. We were Muslims before it was revealed.'" How can people who lived before the Qur'an claim to be adherents of an as yet non-existent religion? That, in fact, is not what this is saying. The word 'muslim' existed before it was attached to followers of Islam. It means 'one who surrenders/submits', and when describing such pre-Islamic people, the Qur'an is referring to previous prophets and those who faithfully followed them. For example, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, and their sons are said to be Muslims (2:132-133).