Jews: Isaiah 53 and Sin

[BilliardsBall]

There seem to be two ways of understanding Isaiah 53 in the context of sin:

1) Jesus paid for human sin
2) A righteous remnant of Israel/Jewish people atones for sin

Is there a passage(s) in Tanakh that describes how sin may be atoned for without an animal sacrifice (not punishment or repayment but actual atonement)?

Is there a passage(s) in Tanakh that describes how a human may atone for another human's sin?

Thank you.

 

[rosends]

There seem to be two ways of understanding Isaiah 53 in the context of sin:

1) Jesus paid for human sin
2) A righteous remnant of Israel/Jewish people atones for sin

Is there a passage(s) in Tanakh that describes how sin may be atoned for without an animal sacrifice (not punishment or repayment but actual atonement)?

Is there a passage(s) in Tanakh that describes how a human may atone for another human's sin?

Thank you.

There are other ways of understanding Is. 53, like, for example, in the context of that entire section of Isaiah, which presents non-Jewish kings making certain assumptions about how their sin was accounted for through the suffering of the Jews.

Then there would have to be some sort of explanation about what you understand "atonement" to be. There are Hebrew terms for different actions and events. Which one do you understand to mean the atonement you speak of?

 

[Left Coast]

***MOVED TO RELIGION Q&A***

 

[Harel13]

Is there a passage(s) in Tanakh that describes how sin may be atoned for without an animal sacrifice (not punishment or repayment but actual atonement)?

There are a number of verses that refer to means of atonement without sacrifice.

For example, there's this one:
"לָהֵן מַלְכָּא מִלְכִּי יִשְׁפַּר עֲלָךְ וַחֲטָאָךְ בְּצִדְקָה פְרֻק וַעֲוָיָתָךְ בְּמִחַן עֲנָיִן הֵן תֶּהֱוֵא אַרְכָה לִשְׁלֵוְתָךְ."

and this one:
"כִּי חֶסֶד חָפַצְתִּי וְלֹא זָבַח וְדַעַת אֱלֹקים מֵעֹלוֹת"

Was explained by Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai to referring to a solution to the issue of atonement in the case of there not being a Temple.

(not punishment or repayment but actual atonement)?

What's "actual atonement"? As opposed to what?

 

[metis]

There are a number of verses that refer to means of atonement without sacrifice.

For example, there's this one:
"לָהֵן מַלְכָּא מִלְכִּי יִשְׁפַּר עֲלָךְ וַחֲטָאָךְ בְּצִדְקָה פְרֻק וַעֲוָיָתָךְ בְּמִחַן עֲנָיִן הֵן תֶּהֱוֵא אַרְכָה לִשְׁלֵוְתָךְ."

and this one:
"כִּי חֶסֶד חָפַצְתִּי וְלֹא זָבַח וְדַעַת אֱלֹקים מֵעֹלוֹת"

Was explained by Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai to referring to a solution to the issue of atonement in the case of there not being a Temple.


What's "actual atonement"? As opposed to what?

Yep, and if one has a concordance all they have to look up is the word "forgive" as found in Torah.

 

[Flankerl]

I am currently resisting the urge to just dump 30 Tovia Singer videos.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There are other ways of understanding Is. 53, like, for example, in the context of that entire section of Isaiah, which presents non-Jewish kings making certain assumptions about how their sin was accounted for through the suffering of the Jews.

Then there would have to be some sort of explanation about what you understand "atonement" to be. There are Hebrew terms for different actions and events. Which one do you understand to mean the atonement you speak of?

The non-Jewish kings felt that Israel or a righteous remnant of Israel was atoning for Israel's sin?

" " saw how Israel was with assigned to a grave with wicked people and also rich people?

Let me ask, who are the "great" whom Israel is assigned a portion with?

 

[BilliardsBall]

There are a number of verses that refer to means of atonement without sacrifice.

For example, there's this one:
"לָהֵן מַלְכָּא מִלְכִּי יִשְׁפַּר עֲלָךְ וַחֲטָאָךְ בְּצִדְקָה פְרֻק וַעֲוָיָתָךְ בְּמִחַן עֲנָיִן הֵן תֶּהֱוֵא אַרְכָה לִשְׁלֵוְתָךְ."

and this one:
"כִּי חֶסֶד חָפַצְתִּי וְלֹא זָבַח וְדַעַת אֱלֹקים מֵעֹלוֹת"

Was explained by Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai to referring to a solution to the issue of atonement in the case of there not being a Temple.


What's "actual atonement"? As opposed to what?

"To them the king of kings will make atonement for you, and your sin in righteousness--" is like saying "JESUS CHRIST made atonement."

As for the other verse, yes, God desires mercy above sacrifice. All you need do next is show the verses about sacrifices being made perpetually or forever are done away with!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yep, and if one has a concordance all they have to look up is the word "forgive" as found in Torah.

The Bible says in the OT that one person's actions cause God to forgive a different person?!

 

[rosends]

The non-Jewish kings felt that Israel or a righteous remnant of Israel was atoning for Israel's sin?

No, for the sins of the non-Jewish nations.

" " saw how Israel was with assigned to a grave with wicked people and also rich people?

They saw how the nation of Israel (even the rich among them) were subject to the evil of the nations who considered themselves rich. The Malbim has a beautiful understanding
ר"ל גם בעת המיתו את העשיר מישראל כדי לקחת את ממונו מ"מ נתנו את קברו אצל קבר רשעים שידמה שהמיתוהו מתוך חטאו

Let me ask, who are the "great" whom Israel is assigned a portion with?

Do you mean verse 12,
"Assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion,
He shall receive the multitude as his spoil."

 

[Harel13]

"To them the king of kings will make atonement for you, and your sin in righteousness--" is like saying "JESUS CHRIST made atonement."

In what way? I was under the impression you were asking us Jews. I am not aware that Jesus was ever a king nor a king of kings.

All you need do next is show the verses about sacrifices being made perpetually or forever are done away with!

"Need [to] do"? I don't believe I need to do for you anything.

 

[metis]

The Bible says in the OT that one person's actions cause God to forgive a different person?!

What does that have to do with what I wrote?

Prayers not only a personal but also communal, as most of us assuredly pray for others and not just ourselves.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The non-Jewish kings felt that Israel or a righteous remnant of Israel was atoning for Israel's sin?

" " saw how Israel was with assigned to a grave with wicked people and also rich people?

Let me ask, who are the "great" whom Israel is assigned a portion with?

Isaiah 53 is about vicarious suffering, but not that of the messiah. The suffering servant is Israel.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Isaiah 53 is about vicarious suffering, but not that of the messiah. The suffering servant is Israel.

That has long troubled me for its awkwardness, for example, "Israel is unfaithful so Israel redeems Israel's sin."

Or the simple and linear "He was with the wicked in His death [crucifixion] and with the rich in His [resurrection] tomb." There are some challenges present in the text and the typical Talmudic explanations make trifles on the many prophecies contained in the one chapter.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What does that have to do with what I wrote?

Prayers not only a personal but also communal, as most of us assuredly pray for others and not just ourselves.

The thought in Isaiah 53 is of Israel or a Messiah atoning for others. I can pray for you but I cannot die and rise for you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That has long troubled me for its awkwardness, for example, "Israel is unfaithful so Israel redeems Israel's sin."

Or the simple and linear "He was with the wicked in His death [crucifixion] and with the rich in His [resurrection] tomb." There are some challenges present in the text and the typical Talmudic explanations make trifles on the many prophecies contained in the one chapter.

It is the obedient remnant of Israel that suffers on behalf of Israel.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It is the obedient remnant of Israel that suffers on behalf of Israel.

Ilogical, as the scriptures don't say "Most of Israel has gone astray" but "ALL WE like sheep have gone astray"--there is no righteous remnant in the passage--it has been added to pull Jewish thought off of Yeshua HaMashiach.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ilogical, as the scriptures don't say "Most of Israel has gone astray" but "ALL WE like sheep have gone astray"--there is no righteous remnant in the passage--it has been added to pull Jewish thought off of Yeshua HaMashiach.

You really have problems with figurative speech don't you.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You really have problems with figurative speech don't you.

Only when Jewish brethren and "sistren" insist that practical, plain, literal prophecy is FIGURATIVE.

Unfortunately, Jewish people have gone so far astray that everything becomes non-literal, diminished. I believe there was a literal sea parted and a barren Sarah pregnant and a literal 70-year period when the land rested because of literal disobedience for an exact literal 490-year omission of the 7th sabbatical year (Saul was coronated exactly 490 360-day years before Jeconiah was deposed).

It's therefore no big deal to have a virgin birth or someone die between thieves then be buried righteously in a rich man's tomb--if God does it.

A five-year old child can see Isaiah 53 IS Yeshua, it takes some real complicated gyrations to make literal prophecies figurative.