Jews/Noahides: Are Noahides part of Judaism or a separate entity?

[Tarheeler]

Taken from a discussion that began in the Judaism DIR.

Are Noahides, by definition, part of and only exist within the framework of Judaism, or are they an independent group and able to stand on their own?

 

[rosends]

Taken from a discussion that began in the Judaism DIR.

Are Noahides, by definition, part of and only exist within the framework of Judaism, or are they an independent group and able to stand on their own?

Are we looking at what "is" or what "should be"? That the word has passed into a vernacular and is thrown around without concern as to its Jewish meaning, origin and context is probably true. That the term only should have bearing fro within the construct of Judaism is also probably true.

 

[Tarheeler]

Are we looking at what "is" or what "should be"? That the word has passed into a vernacular and is thrown around without concern as to its Jewish meaning, origin and context is probably true. That the term only should have bearing fro within the construct of Judaism is also probably true.

We were discussing whether or not those who self-identify as Noahides today would fall under the label of Judaism or not.
Given that, I'd say what "is" would be the context.

 

[Tumah]

Maybe there needs to be some discussion of what does Noahide mean. A quick google of Noahide does not turn up any results that are not either Jewish or antisemitic.

Maybe there are non-Jews that consider themselves under the Noahide covenant but don't actually call themselves Noahides.

 

[Tarheeler]

According to other threads on this forum, there are several members who identify as Noahides either exclusively or in addition to other religious affiliations.

Perhaps they'll stop by and let us know their opinion.

 

[Tumah]

According to other threads on this forum, there are several members who identify as Noahides either exclusively or in addition to other religious affiliations.

Perhaps they'll stop by and let us know their opinion.

Is there any reason why their words should hold more weight? I thought we were trying to determine general world consensus.

 

[Tarheeler]

Is there any reason why their words should hold more weight? I thought we were trying to determine general world consensus.

As they are Noahides and we are not, I'd say their opinions carry at least some weight.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

My opinion : I see them as followers of Noah, who is/was the founding of what became Judaism

so they certainly have a connection, and like modern Jews whose belief and practice go from
Ultra Orthodox, Hasidim, to less and less to simple disbelief or atheist ...
So some who follow the basic Laws as given to Noah and are less Keen on the 613 we developed
after Moshe and the States of Israel and Judah, are still connected to us or part of the greater family.

Perhaps i say this as a 'Hebrew' from Benyamin rather than those who attempted to exterminate us.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

Taken from a discussion that began in the Judaism DIR.

Are Noahides, by definition, part of and only exist within the framework of Judaism, or are they an independent group and able to stand on their own?

The real question is not are we currently a separate entity, but should we be?

Obviously, I believe we should be.

An organized Noachide faith clearly existed before the first Jew, Abraham.

See:

http://text.rcarabbis.org/parashat-...he-yeshiva-of-shem-and-ever-by-yaakov-bieler/



For all seven laws to be fully functional, there must be Noachide courts of law. It's one of the 7 laws in fact to have them.

And No, neither Jewish nor secular courts will suffice.

 

[rosends]

The real question is not are we currently a separate entity, but should we be?

Obviously, I believe we should be.

An organized Noachide faith clearly existed before the first Jew, Abraham.

See:

http://text.rcarabbis.org/parashat-...he-yeshiva-of-shem-and-ever-by-yaakov-bieler/



For all seven laws to be fully functional, there must be Noachide courts of law. It's one of the 7 laws in fact to have them.

And No, neither Jewish nor secular courts will suffice.

If you read through Jewish sources, the material taught at the yeshiva of Shem and Ever was not limited to the 7 laws and those who studied in it held by a set of rules more akin to Mosaic law than to the Noachide code.

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/15431/yeshivat-sheim-veiver

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

... And then there is the opinion I heard recently (forget where) that Noah's generation & those before had a better intuitive knowledge (call it moral compass if you will) of right & wrong.

Maybe from the fruit of the Tree of good & evil in the garden?

Perhaps that's why there's no explicit commands early in the Torah like we see at Sinai, they didn't need them to know the Laws.

How else would it be just to condemn the generation of the flood, unless they *knew* they were acting wicked?

So only the new laws, concerning eating animals, appears in the Noah Covenant.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Aren't they by default? Noah was not even a Jew, he was in Mesopotamia and was around long before Abraham, who is considered the first Jew. Noah has gone through other names as well, as he was mentioned in Sumerian myth. Noah and all the others were in the Bible, but that does not mean they are Jewish? How can they be when Judaism was not even established?

 

[rosends]

Aren't they by default? Noah was not even a Jew, he was in Mesopotamia and was around long before Abraham, who is considered the first Jew. Noah has gone through other names as well, as he was mentioned in Sumerian myth. Noah and all the others were in the Bible, but that does not mean they are Jewish? How can they be when Judaism was not even established?

The question isn't whether Noach was Jewish, but whether the codified set of rules named "Noachidism" (or something like that) because it develops through the Jewish understanding of the text and only exists because Judaism set it up as a thing, should be seen as a "subset" of Jewish thought (though not of Judaism per se).

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I think Noahidism could be a subset or have it's own section. If Messianic Judaism and Rastafari can have their own DIR's why not Noahides?

 

[rosends]

I think Noahidism could be a subset or have it's own section. If Messianic Judaism and Rastafari can have their own DIR's why not Noahides?

Which begs the question "Why is there a group called 'Messianic Judaism' in the system?" WHo has control over the language and the titles? Is "Noachidism" now its own entity which has transcended the Jewish definition and origin of it? Can we have a group called "Polytheistic Muslims" because the term "Muslim" is no longer subject to the definition of Muslims so it can be reconciled, under some new definition, with polytheism?

 

[Tumah]

Which begs the question "Why is there a group called 'Messianic Judaism' in the system?" WHo has control over the language and the titles? Is "Noachidism" now its own entity which has transcended the Jewish definition and origin of it? Can we have a group called "Polytheistic Muslims" because the term "Muslim" is no longer subject to the definition of Muslims so it can be reconciled, under some new definition, with polytheism?

The Christians took the Torah out of Judaism. The mystics took kabballah. Non-Jews are now taking Noahidism out.

Judaism. The religion running out of stuff.

 

[Akivah]

The Christians took the Torah out of Judaism. The mystics took kabballah. Non-Jews are now taking Noahidism out.

Judaism. The religion running out of stuff.

Naw, we're more the religion that everyone wants a part of.

I think since we're the only ones that had a national revelation, everyone else wants to claim it.

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

I think Noahidism could be a subset or have it's own section. If Messianic Judaism and Rastafari can have their own DIR's why not Noahides?

Right, those sub-DIRs don't seem very active, it'd be the same with a Noachide I think. Low numbers.

See, what I'd like is to be able to talk with various other Abrahamic faiths about things we have in common, and only those things.

Because, some members it seems to me, don't venture out of their own DIR, so I'd like to pay them a friendly visit, eh?

(and being confined to questions only makes convos awkward and hard)

 

[Shem Ben Noah]

...The religion running out of stuff.

You got tons of stuff your not even using....

 

[dantech]

... And then there is the opinion I heard recently (forget where) that Noah's generation & those before had a better intuitive knowledge (call it moral compass if you will) of right & wrong.

Maybe from the fruit of the Tree of good & evil in the garden?

Perhaps that's why there's no explicit commands early in the Torah like we see at Sinai, they didn't need them to know the Laws.

How else would it be just to condemn the generation of the flood, unless they *knew* they were acting wicked?

So only the new laws, concerning eating animals, appears in the Noah Covenant.

Noah's generation and those before were so morally messed up that G-d had to flood the world to start all over. I'd like to know more about this opinion you speak of because it doesn't make much sense to me.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see now what you meant.


Returning to the subject, I think much like Tumah and the others. Without the Talmud, an exclusively Jewish book, we'd have no knowledge of Noahides.

I'm not sure, but in the Tanakh, do we see any references to Noahides after Sinai?