Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.

[Greatest I am]

Gnostic Christianity is part of Christianity - you're talking about people trying to destroy things.

Yes. Immoral Christians which is about all one can say about a misogynous and homophobic creed.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Wildly untrue.

I agree.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

"I dislike religion, so I think the state ought to pass laws dictating acceptable theology according to what is in line with my atheistic liberal opinions."


I'm sure you have a deeply informed, well-researched and nuanced understanding of Christian history.

Yes I do. Here is a small part of it.

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.

This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

That was also the Christian war cry as the decimated all who did not think their way after Constantine bought the church that helped usher in the Dark Ages and Inquisition.

Not the gun part of course.

Regards
DL

 

[Parsimony]

You're interested in "re-education camps" for those with different points of view and the indoctrination of children to believe a certain way which is compliant with the desires of a specific group?

No. I'm interested in teaching children how to have empathy for people who are different from them and how to reason based on currently available evidence.

You would not allow people to act on their desires not to support the actions of others they do not like?

Where did you get that from? Nobody should have to support anything against their will (unless that lack of support causes harm, such as a man failing to support his children).

When you say "to rob people of their rights or harm them in other ways", what specific actions are you referring to which rob or harm?

Murder, legal prejudices and assault to mention three.

 

[Greatest I am]

I think there is hope for them. There is non violence in the Holy Quran. However, one would think God would submit us all with goodliness and a compassionate heart and Islam would admit wrong for the sake of love the one God.

There is non-violence, sure, among the violence.

1. Those in hell will be chained together. Their clothing will be made of pitch and fire will cover their faces. 14:49-50
2. Iblis will lead humans astray. Only perfect Muslims will be safe from him. The rest will go to hell. 15:39-43
3. Disbelievers are evil and will dwell in hell forever. 16:27-29
4. Allah will add doom to doom for those who disbelieve. 16:88
5. Those who oppose Islam will face an awful doom. 16:94
6. Disbelievers will have a painful doom. 16:104
7. Those who lose their faith in Islam will face an awful doom. Allah's wrath is upon them. 16:106
8. Allah made hell to be a dungeon for disbelievers. 17:8
9. Allah has prepared a painful doom for those who disbelieve in the Hereafter. 17:10
10. Allah will send disbelievers astray. Then he'll burn them in hell, increasing the flames from time to time. 17:97-98
11. Allah has prepared a Fire for the disbelievers. When they want a shower, Allah will give them a shower of molten lead to burn their faces. 18:29
12. Christians will cry out to Allah's "partners", but they won't hear them; Allah will send them to their doom. 18:52
13. Nothing prevents non-muslims from believing in Islam. So it's their own fault when they are sent to their doom. 18:55
14. Allah will welcome the disbelievers into hell. 18:102
15. The good works of disbelievers are all in vain. They will go to hell anyway. 18:104-105
16. Hell is the reward for disbelievers because they made a jest of Allah's revelations and messengers. 18:106
17. "Woe unto the disbelievers from the meeting of an awful Day."
    Jesus was not the Son of God. Those who say he was (Christians) are going to hell. 19:35-37
18. Allah will pluck out from every sect those who should burn in hell. 19:69-70
19. Allah will prolong the lives of non-believers so they can see their punishment, either in this world or in the Hour of doom. 19:75
20. Allah will record what disbelievers say and then prolong their torment. 19:77-79
21. Allah destroyed entire towns, yet the people still disbelieved. 20:6
22. Lo! it hath been revealed unto us that the doom will be for him who denieth and turneth away." 20:48
23. Those who do not believe Allah's revelations will face doom in the Hereafter. 20:127
24. Allah destroyed entire towns, yet the people still disbelieved. 21:6
25. "And one of them who should say: Lo! I am a god beside Him, that one We should repay with hell." 21:29
26. Disbelievers will not be able to put out the fire on their faces and backs. They will be stupefied and no one will help them. 21:39-40
27. The disbelievers will stare in terror at what Allah has in store for them. 21:97-99
28. "He who disputeth concerning Allah without knowledge or guidance or a scripture giving light, Turning away in pride to beguile (men) from the way of Allah. For him in this world is ignominy, and on the Day of Resurrection We make him taste the doom of burning."
    Those who turn from the way of Allah will face ignominy in this world and the doom of burning in the next. 22:8-9
29. Disbelievers will wear garments of fire, boiling fluid will be poured on their heads, their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: Taste the doom of burning. 22:19-22
30. Allah will provide the disbelievers with a painful doom. 22:25
31. Those who disregard Allah's revelations are the owners of the Fire. 22:51
32. Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will have a shameful doom. 22:57
33. Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will burn in the Fire. 22:72
34. Those who don't believe in the Hereafter will receive extreme punishment from Allah. 23:74-77
35. Disbelievers will never escape the Fire that will be their home. 24:57
36. Those who deny the coming of the Hour will be chained together and burned with fire. They will pray for their own destruction. 25:11-13
37. It will be a hard day for disbelievers and wrong-doers. They will gnaw on their hands and wish they had chosen Islam. 25:26-27
38. Those who deny Muhammad's revelations will be destroyed. 25:36
39. "They [the non-muslims] will know, when they behold the doom, who is more astray as to the road." 25:42
40. Those who believe in another god are doomed. 26:213
41. Those who disbelieve in the revelations of Allah have no hope of mercy. For such there is a painful doom. 29:23
42. The doom of hell will come upon disbelievers suddenly, when they least expect it. 29:53-55
43. The worst thing you can do is tell a lie about Allah. Hell is the home of disbelievers. 29:68
44. Allah seals the heart of disbelievers. (And then he burns them in the Fire.) 30:59
45. Those who mislead others from Allah's way and mock Islam will have a painful doom. 31:6-7
46. Allah will give disbelievers a little comfort for a little while, and then he'll torment them forever with a heavy doom. 31:23-24
47. The worst thing you can do is to deny the revelations of Allah. 32:22
48. He hath prepared a painful doom for the unfaithful." 33:8
49. Allah cast panic into the hearts of the disbelievers. He killed some, and enslaved others. 33:25-26
50. Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 33:60-61
51. Allah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming fire, wherein they will abide forever. 33:64-65
52. T"On the day when their faces are turned over in the Fire, they say: Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and had obeyed His messenger!"
    When Allah burns the faces of disbelievers in the Fire, they'll wish they had obeyed Muhammad and Allah. 33:66
53. Those who challenge the revelations of Muhammad will have a painful doom. 34:5
54. Those who disbelieve in the Hereafter will be tormented. 34:8
55. "They are filled with remorse when they behold the doom; and We place carcans on the necks of those who disbelieved." 34:33
56. Those who strive against Allah's revelations will be brought to the doom. 34:38
57. Those who ignore Allah's messenger (Muhammed) will face a terrific doom. 34:46
58. Those who are cast into hell be terrified when they see that they have no escape. Then they will believe. But it will be too late. 34:51-52
59. Those who disbelieve will have an awful doom. 35:7
60. Disbelievers will burn forever in the fire of hell. Allah will keep them alive so that he can torture them forever. When they repent and ask for mercy, he will ignore them. 35:36-7
61. Allah has blinded the disbelievers so that they cannot see the truth. So don't bother warning them. They will go to hell anyway. 36:8-10
62. Allah will burn the disbelievers in hell. 36:63-4
63. Those who refuse to believe in Muhammad's revelations will face a painful doom. 37:31-38
64. Those in hell must eat from a tree with the heads of devils, and then drink boiling water. After that they return to hell. 37:62-68
65. Only the "single-minded slaves of Allah" will be saved from the doom. 37:127-8
66. No one is against Allah, except those who burn in hell. 37:162-3
67. Just wait a while and watch. The unbelievers will soon be destroyed in the doom. 37:176-9
68. Those who doubt will soon taste Allah's doom. 38:8
69. Those who deny the messengers deserve doom. 38:14
70. Those who wander from the way of Allah will have an awful doom. 38:26
71. Those who disbelieve will burn in the Fire. 38:27
72. The transgressors will roast in the Fire and be forced to drink boiling liquids followed by ice cold drinks. 38:55-9
73. Tell the disbelievers to enjoy themselves now, because later they will be owners of the Fire. 39:8
74. The doom will come upon those who deny what Allah has revealed. 39:25
75. Allah will make non-believers "taste humiliation in the life of the world" and " the doom of the Hereafter" which will be even worse. 39:26
76. The worst thing you can do is tell a lie against Allah. The home of disbelievers is hell. 39:32
77. Disbelievers had their chance to believe. They will all suffer in an endless doom. 39:56-59
78. Those who lie about Allah will be sent to hell and will have their faces blackened. 39:60
79. Those who disbelieve will be driven into hell. 39:71-72
80. Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire. 40:6
81. Those who ignore Allah's "clear proofs" will be seized and punished severely. 40:22
82. Disbelievers will burn forever in the Fire. 41:41-42
83. Those in hell will beg to be relieved from the Fire's torment for just a day. But the prayer of a disbeliever is in vain. 40:49-50
84. Those who scorn Allah will go to hell. 40:60
85. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are perverted. 40:63
86. Those who deny the Scripture and Allah's messengers will be dragged through boiling water and thrust into the Fire. 40:70-72
87. Those who scorn will go to hell. 40:76
88. Allah will make life miserable for those who deny his revelations and then he will torment them forever in the Hereafter. And they will not be helped. 41:15-16
89. The enemies of Allah will be gathered into the Fire where their skin, ears, and eyes will testify against them. 41:19-20
90. Non-muslims will be tormented forever in the Fire. Allah will not have any mercy on them. 41:24
91. Allah will make those who disbelieve taste an awful doom. Their immortal home will be the Fire, since they denied Allah's revelations. 41:27-28
92. Those who disbelieve will taste hard punishment. 41:50
93. Those who argue about Allah will have his wrath upon them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 42:16
94. "And as for disbelievers, theirs will be an awful doom." 42:26
95. Those who turn people away from Islam will "be sharers in the doom." 43:37-39
96. "But they will come to know."
    Allah will torment disbelievers forever in hell. 43:88-89
97. Those in torment will claim to believe and ask Allah for relief. But he will refuse since they will return to their disbelief. 44:11-16
98. Those in hell must eat from a tree like molten brass that burns their bellies. Then boiling water will be poured on their heads. 44:43-48
99. "He hath saved them [Muslims] from the doom of hell."
    (Everyone else is going to hell.) 44:56
100. Those who hear and reject Allah's revelations are sinful liars. Give them tidings of a painful doom. 45:7-8
101. Those who joke about Allah's revelations will go to hell. Theirs will be a shameful doom. 45:9-10
102. Those who disbelieve in Allah's revelations will have an awful doom of wrath. 45:11
103. Disbelievers will be rewarded with the ignominious doom of the Fire. 46:20
104. Serve only Allah or face the doom of a tremendous day. 46:21
105. Allah will taunt the disbelievers that he torments in the fire, saying: "Taste the doom for that ye disbelieved." 46:34
106. Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4
107. Allah will damn the disbelievers and make all their actions fruitless. 47:8-9
108. Disbelievers may eat and be happy now, but the Fire will be their final home. 47:12
109. Those in the Garden will drink delicious wine, while those in the Fire will drink boiling water that will tear apart their intestines. 47:15
110. Allah has prepared a flame for the disbelievers. 48:13
111. If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16
112. Allah punished those who disbelieved with a painful punishment. 48:25
113. Allah will hurl those who believe in another god into a dreadful doom. 50:26
114. Those who deny the existence of hell will be thrust into its Fire. 52:11-16
115. Those who deny Allah and the Hereafter will eat from the Zaqqum tree and drink boiling water. 56:51-54
116. Allah will welcome the rejecters and erring with boiling water and a roasting in the hell fire. 56:92-94
117. Those who disbelieve or doubt the revelations of Allah will be face the doom. 57:13-14
118. The home of disbelievers is the Fire, a hapless journey's end. 57:15
119. Those who disbelieve and deny Allah's revelations are the owners of the fire. 57:19
120. For disbelievers is a painful doom. 58:4
121. For disbelievers is a shameful doom. 58:5
122. Don't make friends with Allah's enemies. For those who do so, Allah has prepared a dreadful doom. 58:14-15
123. Those who turn others away from the way of Allah will have a shameful doom. They are rightful owners of the Fire. 58:16-17
124. Allah cast fear into the hearts of the disbelieving People of the Scripture. Their home in the Hereafter will be the Fire. 59:2-3
125. The devil and disbelievers will be in the Fire. 59:16-17
126. Allah loves those who fight for him. 61:4
127. Those who disbelieve will have a painful doom. 64:5
128. Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire. 64:10
129. Be stern with disbelievers. They are going to Hell anyway. 66:9
130. Disbelievers will go to hell where they will hear its roaring and boiling. 67:6-7
131. Who will protect the disbelievers from a painful doom? (Nobody) 67:28
132. Those who consider the Quran to be "mere fables" will be branded on the nose.68:15-16
133. Those who do not believe in Allah will be chained up and cast into hell-fire where they will eat filth. 69:30-35
134. Doom is about to fall on all disbelievers. Only worshippers (Muslims) and those who preserve their chastity (except with their wives and slave girls) will be spared from "the fires of hell" that are "eagar to roast." 70:1-30
135. Disbelievers will enter hell with frantic with fear, knowing they will be tortured forever by Allah. 70:36, 44
136. Noah asked Allah to drown all the disbelievers. 71:26
137. The fires of hell will be fueled with the bodies of idolators and unbelievers. They will experience an ever-greater torment. 72:15-17
138. The fires of hell will be fueled with the bodies of idolators and unbelievers. They will experience an ever-greater torment. 72:15-17
139. Allah will take care of the deniers. He will tie them up, burn them in a raging fire, and feed them food that chokes them. 73:11-13
140. The last day will be a day of anguish for disbelievers. 74:9-10
141. Those who are stubborn to Allah's revelations will face a fearful doom. 74:16-17
142. Allah has appointed angels to tend the Fire and has prepared stumbling blocks for those who disbelieve. He sends some people (whoever he wants) astray. 74:31
143. Those who pay attention to this life and ignore the Hereafter will suffer forever in hell. 75:20-29
144. Allah has prepared chains, manacles, and a raging fire for the disbelievers. 76:4
145. Woe unto the repudiators on that day! 77:19, 77:24, 77:28, 77:34, 77:40, 77:45, 77:49
146. Those who deny the revelations given to Muhammed will burn forever in hell. 78:21-30
147. Those who rebel by choosing this life over the next will go to hell. 79:37-39
148. Those who reject Allah's revelations will burn in hell. 83:10-17
149. The disbelievers used to laugh at the believers. But the final laugh will be on them. 83:29-36
150. Disbelievers will be given a painful doom. 84:22-24
151. Allah will punish disbelievers with the direst punishment. 88:23-24
152. Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will have the Fire placed over them like an awning. 90:19-20
153. Those who deny Allah's revelations must endure the flaming fire. 92:14-16
154. Those who disbelieve will abide in the fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. 98:6

 

[Greatest I am]

How can u forbid that when atheists are minority in Christian west?

Non-belief is the majority position when counting the believers who actually believe and are not just following daddi's God.

Some countries show a vast majority as naming themselves Christian while only about 4% ever go into a church.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

When we'll take it upon ourselves to forcible censor one text for "immoral content," we'll do for anything. If you censor one thing over interpretations of violence, where would you stop? The Dawson College shooter said Megadeth's song A Tout le Monde influenced him to do that.

We cannot legislate insanity but can take some of the list I have just above out of their book of peace.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

It's not the books that are our enemies, it's people that want to use the books as weapons that tend to give us headaches.

Sure but we should still try to make their book less intolerant. Even good Muslims will likely go for that if their hierarchy does not threaten those who want the changes.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I say let people believe whatever they want to, just don't let them do whatever they want to. We should also make it a point to foster good education and reasoning skills in society. I believe those things would help reduce the use of scripture as justification to rob people of their rights or harm them in other ways.

I agree as education is our best tool against those stupid enough to read their myths literally.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Indirectly. Scripture is just scripture. The best way of defending against its misuse is by far simply by learning better and spreading the education.

I hear you but look at that list above of what they are being taught.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I find your statement that the Bible is "immoral" or denigrates women to be unfounded. )

Then you do not know how to read.

Only a fool would look at the mainstream religions and say that they are not homophobic and misogynous.

You cannot read but perhaps you can hear.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I don't care for religion but can't favor oppression as a tool against religion.

Like another said, education is the key.

How exactly would you educate those who are indoctrinated with that list above?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Inspire, but not motivate. I said it in my post, a teaching is just a teaching, it can be interpret to harm others, but I haven't seen one religion just going out and preaching murder.

Read that list above and try to repeat what you said without chocking on your words.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

What??? ROFL! Abrahamic religions are the worst tools of dominating masses that have ever been created. I think I don't think to quote any scriptures on that. No wonder most people is meak, coward and conforming these days. e.g. they teach us not to lie, steal and kill, while governments do all of that, all the time! They teach us that being rich and having sex is bad, while the Elite that rules the World is immensely rich and enjoy every imaginable pleasure available. The old trick of "do what I say, but not what I do".

About scriptures, no, they shouldn't be amended, they should be forgotten as mass manipulating myths. Do they have some truth in them? Of course, if you believe in Jesus and ask him the protection of Archangel Michael you will be protected. Now, should you buy the whole package and believe everything in the book? You would end up like Ned Flanders. Now who is really Jesus and Michael? Well, you'll have to find that out by yourself (ask them who they are).

I think it's pointless to get some book like Mein Kampf and reinterpret it until it ends up being a children's bedtime story. In the same way it would be loosing time to get the Quran and reinterpret verses like:

8:12 [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

So much for "forgiving and merciful"! Maybe only to new forced converts! What was the big threat of polytheists anyway? Were they the "competition"?

Then you could wonder why so much violence would be needed against unbelievers. They don't believe because they didn't see, right? Duh! Allah, just present yourself so they see you and they'll believe in you. Otherwise you can "strike" them on their necks and fingertips for their whole life and they'll have even less faith than what they had before!

I could go on citing Deuteronomy and Leviticus in the Bible, etc. but it's beyond the point. Bad books and bad religions should be abandoned.

Anyway most people is in abrahamic religions only because they were made members when they were helpless toddlers, not because of the quality of those paths. So people must learn to question everyone and everything, study History and wake up! The Bible and the Quran are not the only options!

We have no argument other than method.

Tell a theist to look at changing a verse and you might have a chance of talking some sense into him. Tell a theist to lose his holy book and he will tell you where to go.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

In other words, you want God to change his mind about homosexuality because you think God is mistaken concerning it? In any case, completely getting rid of scripture will not achieve your desired result, because some people on their own, without the influence of scripture will still find homosexuality repugnant. What will you want then? To declare that only your preferences are then legally acceptable; and that others who hold contrary views are not entitled to their preferences by law? You would destroy agency so that you can feel accepted by those people who do not accept you? Who then is the tyrant?

I have always been a believer in the right of association. All individuals have the right to associate with whom they wish for whatever reason they wish and in whatever capacity and to whatever extent they wish. Conversely, all people have the right not to associate with whomever they wish, and not to associate with for whatever reason. Happiness is mostly derived through human associations. I have no problem with your finding happiness in associating with whomever you wish, for whatever reason you wish, but you don't like it if I do the same thing. You would deny me my rights not to associate with you if I wish not to? The point of a right is that I do not have to justify my not wanting to associate with you. It is just my preference because I don't like you or what you are doing. It's that simple. I think you just need to get over yourself. There are plenty of people out there who accept you. Be happy with them and leave the rest alone.

Governments, with their restriction on travel to those who wish to join ISIS, are definitely ignoring your right to association so you have no argument as that right does not exist.

Any other argument?

Regards
DL

 

[MonkeyFire]

There is non-violence, sure, among the violence.

1. Those in hell will be chained together. Their clothing will be made of pitch and fire will cover their faces. 14:49-50

Hey, GIM

kx000 from sciforums here. All I have to say is subconsciously everyone objectively believes in God and can be made to submit. We all posses desire and God is grace.

 

[suncowiam]

How exactly would you educate those who are indoctrinated with that list above?

Regards
DL

You try to target the next generation. Change usually flows with generation.

Many countries that are being westernized start with the younger generation.

As for the specifics, well, it will depend on location and environment.

 

[BSM1]

Sure but we should still try to make their book less intolerant. Even good Muslims will likely go for that if their hierarchy does not threaten those who want the changes.

Regards
DL

Books are inanimate objects that hold ideas. Actions are the responsibility of the reader.

 

[Greatest I am]

Hey, GIM

kx000 from sciforums here. All I have to say is subconsciously everyone objectively believes in God and can be made to submit. We all posses desire and God is grace.

Greetings from here.

True to a point but we should investigate why we seek a God to submit to and why that God is us.

Have a look at these two pieces of information.

Father complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that as a Gnostic Christian, my belief is that we are to have God submit to us and not us submit to him.

After all, the strong are to serve us and not us, the weak, serve the strong. Right?

The only God fit to rule men is a man. A man speaking for God is all we have ever had as God has no lips.

Regards
DL