Job: is God tricked by Satan?

[People_Lack_Integrity]

I don’t think that cop analogy is really true. People don’t seem to have any problem for example with that police murdered Ashli Babbitt. When police use violence against people that are not liked, it is usually not a problem. I didn't say cop murdering someone, I said that if someone (a normal person) was being beaten mercilessly and the cop stood by and did nothing. It doesn't have to be a cop though, it can be anyone who sits by and watches an innocent person being killed and does nothing to help stop it. People would judge the cop, or the person who failed to render aid as evil. Your example though, actually proves my point further, because the point is that harm is being caused to someone and people have a problem with it....except when it's god. So your false comparison of a cop murdering Ashli Babbitt, is actually an example of the point I was making where people have a problem with injustice....except when it's god.

The Job story indicates the ones who were killed, had rejected God and were allowed to be without God and His protection. Should God help people who don’t want it? Actually you are wrong about the family. It says that he would burn offerings to god because, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” So he did it as a "just in case", it's not a rendering of his family as guilty. Yet the suffering went on to Job didn't it? Job loved his family and regardless of what they did or didn't do, the suffering and torture, including the boils, were inflicted upon Job. His livestock, his property...all destroyed. Was the livestock guilty of sin too? Saying "maybe the family deserved it" doesn't fix the central problem, but the story doesn't even say that, that's just your attempt to make what god did less brutal.

By what I have understood, Job was a righteous man. That is why I think he would not have deserved what Satan did to him. That is why I believe God compensated the trouble Job had to endure.

Again, if Job was a righteous man....and god knows everything, then the test was completely unnecessary. I don't know if you've ever had a family...but I love my wife and son dearly...and if a god took them away as a part of some unnecessary pissing contest and then when it was over said, "here, I know I allowed your family to be killed...but I'll give you riches and another family"...I would tell him to rightly go F himself, that I want my family back, that they did nothing to deserve that and that he can keep his "riches" and that I don't want a new family. But maybe that's because I love my family more than some tyrannical being who is so insecure that he has to play games with people's lives to feel better about himself.

 

[1213]

Again, if Job was a righteous man....and god knows everything, then the test was completely unnecessary....they did nothing to deserve ...

I wouldn't call it even a test.

I believe they didn't deserve anything more. I don't think anyone actually has done anything to deserve life from God. What have you done to deserve to live? I think God gives life as a gift, not as a reward.

I think they had rejected God. What do you think, if person rejects God, should God forcibly intervene in such persons life?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I wouldn't call it even a test.

I believe they didn't deserve anything more. I don't think anyone actually has done anything to deserve life from God. What have you done to deserve to live? I think God gives life as a gift, not as a reward.

I think they had rejected God. What do you think, if person rejects God, should God forcibly intervene in such persons life?

The question is not whether Job deserved life from God. The question is whether he deserved suffering.

 

[Soapy]

Again, if Job was a righteous man....and god knows everything, then the test was completely unnecessary. I don't know if you've ever had a family...but I love my wife and son dearly...and if a god took them away as a part of some unnecessary pissing contest and then when it was over said, "here, I know I allowed your family to be killed...but I'll give you riches and another family"...I would tell him to rightly go F himself, that I want my family back, that they did nothing to deserve that and that he can keep his "riches" and that I don't want a new family. But maybe that's because I love my family more than some tyrannical being who is so insecure that he has to play games with people's lives to feel better about himself.

Was Job’s family good?

Wasn’t Job’s sons prostituting their sisters?

I never advocate mentioning family in a forum but since you brought them into it: Suppose your sons were prostituting your daughters - and the daughters welcomed it - to your greatest shangrin!!!

And your wife is telling you to ‘Curse [your] God and die”.. which shows she is not in your righteousness - she is not a compliant wife!!

You pray every day for their forgiveness.

You are ashamed of your children’s behaviour.

You yearn for a righteous family.

You suffer for them, begging God every day and night… your house has become a den of iniquity.. oh the pain of it is tremendous - the Shame, the humiliation, the torture.

But you remain in your righteousness despite all the setbacks!

Then all is tested and done - God gives you a righteous wife with a righteous set of children….

And you say you prefer the unrighteousness family?

Hmmm… let me see….! Lot’s wife ‘looking back and yearning for the life she had in Sodom’…

‘Pillar of Salt’ springs to mind, here!!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That says, everything he had was in his power. I don’t think it is same as that Job also would be.

What God condones in the story is the inflicting of terrible suffering on Job, with the one restriction against inflicting physical harm on Job himself (though even that restriction is relaxed by the end, since God agrees to let Satan inflict Job with boils).

If someone killed your entire family, would you think that you hadn't suffered at all?

But anyway, I think it was not evil, because God knew that the outcome was good and he compensated everything for Job.

Of course, the story only mentions compensation for Job, not for any of the human beings who the author considers Job's property (i.e. his wife and children).

That aside, even if the compensation was adequate, it still points to a problem. There's more imperfection in having a flaw and fixing it than there is in not allowing the flaw in the first place.

It also does nothing to contradict the idea that God was tricked. In fact, God paying the compensation - as opposed to, say, God forcing Satan to pay the compensation - could be seen as an admission on God's part of feeling culpable for letting himself be tricked.

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

I wouldn't call it even a test.

I believe they didn't deserve anything more. I don't think anyone actually has done anything to deserve life from God. What have you done to deserve to live? I think God gives life as a gift, not as a reward. You express the ultimate problem with christianity and why it is like many religions...just a form of mental control and brainwashing. It breaks you down to less than human by saying "There is something wrong with you...you are born sick...but fear not...we have the cure and that cure is god." In your brain, you wash away all humanity and anything god does, becomes good, just because he gave us life (supposedly). So, god playing games, killing us, killing kids, sending plagues, allowing Satan to kill, torture, etc...not to mention of course him allowing us to be tormented even after we die for eternity, not for what we do, but what we don't believe....all that becomes ok, because we are lowly and pathetic and shouldn't question the dear leader, even when he does unspeakable evil to us.

I think they had rejected God. What do you think, if person rejects God, should God forcibly intervene in such persons life?

But it was god who forcibly intervened in their lives...or are you already forgetting the story?! The family was doing just fine, it was god who approached Satan and said, "Hey what'cha doing? Have you seen my most loyal servant? I'll bet you he'll follow me even when you take away everything from him!" Remember, Satan couldn't do anything...until god allowed it. So god forcibly intervened in Job's life, allowed his family to be killed, his life to be ruined and then afterwards said, "See, I told you so Satan!"

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

Was Job’s family good?

Wasn’t Job’s sons prostituting their sisters? The story of Job says nothing about that. I tried doing some research to find the scripture you are referring to and I think you are confused. The most it says about them is that maybe they sinned and they were killed while over at one of the brother's house drinking wine.

I never advocate mentioning family in a forum but since you brought them into it: Suppose your sons were prostituting your daughters - and the daughters welcomed it - to your greatest shangrin!!! Well that doesn't seem the case here, but I wouldn't want them killed.....kind of extreme don't you think? I would try to help them stop and get out of that situation, but I guess I'm kinder than your god...and you apparently.

And your wife is telling you to ‘Curse [your] God and die”.. which shows she is not in your righteousness - she is not a compliant wife!! Again...so she deserves to be killed? Are you even reading what you are writing or considering what you are saying?

You pray every day for their forgiveness.

You are ashamed of your children’s behaviour.

You yearn for a righteous family.

You suffer for them, begging God every day and night… your house has become a den of iniquity.. oh the pain of it is tremendous - the Shame, the humiliation, the torture.

But you remain in your righteousness despite all the setbacks!

Then all is tested and done - God gives you a righteous wife with a righteous set of children….

And you say you prefer the unrighteousness family? The book of Job doesn't say all of this. Perhaps go back and read the story. Either way, yes if god killed my family, even if they weren't everything I wanted, I wouldn't want them killed. I hope you never have a family...you seem dangerous.

Hmmm… let me see….! Lot’s wife ‘looking back and yearning for the life she had in Sodom’… No evidence this happened, but even if it did, it doesn't say that she yearned for the life she had, that's a christian invention to try to make god look less like a monster. You can look back at something without yearning for it....perhaps to survey the destruction, or to make sure there's nothing coming after you (flying debris), but either way, it's an extreme punishment that once again, you seem to be ok with. Basically to you, if you won't live up to god's standards, it's ok for him to kill you or for someone else to. This is what I detest about religion is that it takes ordinarily normal people and make them accept, say and do disgusting and evil things, just as you have here.

‘Pillar of Salt’ springs to mind, here!!

 

[1213]

...
If someone killed your entire family, would you think that you hadn't suffered at all?

Maybe I could think even from less that I have suffered. Still, it may not be wrong thing.

...Of course, the story only mentions compensation for Job, not for any of the human beings who the author considers Job's property (i.e. his wife and children).

The others seem to have been unrighteous and perhaps got their punishment for sin.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Bible Gateway passage: Job 1 - New English Translation

In this passage, Satan manages to talk God into giving him free reign to visit all sorts of evil on one family. There's no downside mentioned for Satan: nothing he would have to give up if he loses the bet.

Satan seems to have managed to get exactly what he wanted with no downside, while God suffers quite a bit (if he has empathy for Job and his family, that is).

This sure sounds to me like God was tricked by Satan. Satan saw an opportunity, jumped at it, and God took the bait.

Thoughts?

For such mortal enemies, God and Satan sure hang out a lot together.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

For such mortal enemies, God and Satan sure hang out a lot together.

In Judaism, Satan is not a mortal enemy of God. He is God's employee. Angels are considered to not have free will, thus there is no such thing as a rebellion of angels or fallen angels. The Job of HaSatan is to accuse and tempt, in order for free will to exist. You see HaSatan acting in exactly this role in the opening of Job.

 

[People_Lack_Integrity]

Maybe I could think even from less that I have suffered. Still, it may not be wrong thing.
Your sentence here doesn't make sense. Reread it and perhaps reformulate.


The others seem to have been unrighteous and perhaps got their punishment for sin.

There's nothing about Job that indicates that that they were sinful or unrighteous. Again, the most it says is that Job would pray for his kids just in case they were sinful...doesn't say they were. Either way, you, like the others seem to think it's ok to kill a family if they aren't "righteous". So if god ordered you to kill a family because they were "sinful" or "unrighteous"...you'd do it? Again, this is the horror of christianity is it makes people lose their humanity and see other people as not human anymore, but something evil or demonic that it's now ok to kill them or be ok with god killing them, or being ok with god allowing another being to kill them and torture them. That's disgusting. To just casually say "Well they seem to have been unrighteous" as if that makes it ok for god to have been playing with Job's life and allowing Satan to kill his family...shows exactly what I mean. You have sacrificed your humanity and empathy for human life, all for this evil god.

 

[1213]

...So if god ordered you to kill a family because they were "sinful" or "unrighteous"...you'd do it?

No, because it is possible that I could be wrong and also because:

"Don't judge, so that you won't be judged. For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you."
Mat. 7:1-2

... Again, this is the horror of christianity is it makes people lose their humanity and see other people as not human anymore, but something evil or demonic that it's now ok to kill them or be ok with god killing them, or being ok with god allowing another being to kill them and torture them. That's disgusting. To just casually say "Well they seem to have been unrighteous" as if that makes it ok for god to have been playing with Job's life and allowing Satan to kill his family...shows exactly what I mean.

Sin is basically that person rejects God. Why should God intervene to someone’s life who doesn’t want God in his life? I think for example Job’s wife was not righteous because she said:

… "Do you still maintain your integrity? Renounce God, and die."
Job. 2:9

I think God has given life, therefore He has also the right to decide how long life He gives. None has done anything to deserve more than what God gives. If God would give me only one day, I think I should still be thankful, because I would not deserve even that by my own merits.

...

You have sacrificed your humanity and empathy for human life, all for this evil god.

So, you think that everything should be accepted from humans, otherwise “You have sacrificed your humanity and empathy”? Is there some good reason to give eternal life for evil and unrighteous people?

 

[Cherub]

Why do you think God's reputation was at stake?

Just like I said, Satan raised the issue of Jobs's integrity to YHWH in front of trillions of spectators (angels). He said the only reason Job served God was because of the riches provided. Remember, too; this wasn't just a local issue; it is a worldwide issue. So who to obey, Satan or YHWH.

 

[gospelsaves]

This was not a bet. When God asks a question it’s not for Him to find out information LOL. It’s for YOU to realize what YOU have done! He is God, meaning omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. So when he asked Satan “Where were you?” God fully knew what Satan was up to. Satan says “Roaming the Earth” basically doing what I always do. Then God asks him “Have you considered my servant Job” … again when God asks you something He is God (Omnicient)…it is NOT for Him to find out information. It’s for YOU to realize your actions.

When God said “Have you considered my servant Job” that was not God putting something into the mind of Satan. Satan had already had it in his heart to do things to Job. Why we can know that? The next statements prove it. Satans says “Does Job fear you for nothing”…then Satan goes on how God put a hedge of blessings all around Job. Satan said God blesses his flocks, blesses everything he puts hands to, blesses his household…just blesses everything! How would he know that UNLESS Satan already had his eye on him? And God knew that! Because God is omniscient.

That is how this came about. God wasn’t tricked. Satan said that the only reason Job loved God was due to him being blessed, and if all those blessings were removed Job would turn on God. God knew this wasn’t true because God is omniscient and can see into a mans heart. Satan made those accusations in front of all heaven. If God said “no” you can’t touch him, maybe this would have put doubt in other heavenly beings mind that maybe Satan was right. If God had just destroyed Satan at that moment maybe that would have put doubt in other heavenly beings mind that maybe Satan is right. Only God is omniscient. This was not a bet, God allowed Satan to carry out his false claim with one caveat he could not kill Job. In the end, all heaven saw God was right (of course), Satan of course was wrong.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just like I said, Satan raised the issue of Jobs's integrity to YHWH in front of trillions of spectators (angels). He said the only reason Job served God was because of the riches provided. Remember, too; this wasn't just a local issue; it is a worldwide issue. So who to obey, Satan or YHWH.

I don't any of that challenges God's reputation.

Indeed, it is very clear that Satan could only do what God allowed. It is simply his job as God's employee to accuse and tempt.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't any of that challenges God's reputation.

Indeed, it is very clear that Satan could only do what God allowed. It is simply his job as God's employee to accuse and tempt.

And to kill innocent people (as God allowed)?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And to kill innocent people (as God allowed)?

What does this have to do with Satan? Please stay focused.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What does this have to do with Satan? Please stay focused.

One of the first things that happens in the story is that Satan has Job's children and servants killed.

... with God's blessing, as you point out.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

One of the first things that happens in the story is that Satan has Job's children and servants killed.

... with God's blessing, as you point out.

Yes. God is the author of life and death.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Bible Gateway passage: Job 1 - New English Translation

In this passage, Satan manages to talk God into giving him free reign to visit all sorts of evil on one family. There's no downside mentioned for Satan: nothing he would have to give up if he loses the bet.

Satan seems to have managed to get exactly what he wanted with no downside, while God suffers quite a bit (if he has empathy for Job and his family, that is).

This sure sounds to me like God was tricked by Satan. Satan saw an opportunity, jumped at it, and God took the bait.

Thoughts?

I think Job isn’t the main character but the McGuffin. He’s just the plot device to reveal how easily God is tempted and how fickle His loyalty is to those who serve Him.