Job: is God tricked by Satan?

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

There's nothing about Job that indicates that that they were sinful or unrighteous. Again, the most it says is that Job would pray for his kids just in case they were sinful...doesn't say they were. Either way, you, like the others seem to think it's ok to kill a family if they aren't "righteous". So if god ordered you to kill a family because they were "sinful" or "unrighteous"...you'd do it? Again, this is the horror of christianity is it makes people lose their humanity and see other people as not human anymore, but something evil or demonic that it's now ok to kill them or be ok with god killing them, or being ok with god allowing another being to kill them and torture them. That's disgusting. To just casually say "Well they seem to have been unrighteous" as if that makes it ok for god to have been playing with Job's life and allowing Satan to kill his family...shows exactly what I mean. You have sacrificed your humanity and empathy for human life, all for this evil god.

Most Christian readers of Job seem to sympathize with Job’s “friends “, whom God Himself said are ignorant jerks.

 

[syo]

Bible Gateway passage: Job 1 - New English Translation

In this passage, Satan manages to talk God into giving him free reign to visit all sorts of evil on one family. There's no downside mentioned for Satan: nothing he would have to give up if he loses the bet.

Satan seems to have managed to get exactly what he wanted with no downside, while God suffers quite a bit (if he has empathy for Job and his family, that is).

This sure sounds to me like God was tricked by Satan. Satan saw an opportunity, jumped at it, and God took the bait.

Thoughts?

I think, God wins here, thanks to Satan. Satan saw the happiness but he also saw the conditions. He proposed the opposite to God and God saw it too and agreed. In the OT, Satan is a servant and loyal to God and he does excellent job, actually.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Bible Gateway passage: Job 1 - New English Translation

In this passage, Satan manages to talk God into giving him free reign to visit all sorts of evil on one family. There's no downside mentioned for Satan: nothing he would have to give up if he loses the bet.

Satan seems to have managed to get exactly what he wanted with no downside, while God suffers quite a bit (if he has empathy for Job and his family, that is).

This sure sounds to me like God was tricked by Satan. Satan saw an opportunity, jumped at it, and God took the bait.

Thoughts?

Nope. God was playing Satan. He knew the ultimate result. And that Satan would lose.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nope. God was playing Satan. He knew the ultimate result. And that Satan would lose.

If God won the bet, what did he win?

If God was playing Satan, God must have gotten something of value from Satan. What was it?

 

[Wildswanderer]

If God won the bet, what did he win?

If God was playing Satan, God must have gotten something of value from Satan. What was it?

What did God win? The battle! It's not as if God needs anything other than to be who he is and he is always ultimately victorious.
You don't understand God if you think he needs some tangible prize. He received what he deserves, praise for being the creator and King.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What did God win? The battle! It's not as if God needs anything other than to be who he is and he is always ultimately victorious.

So nothing then.

You don't understand God if you think he needs some tangible prize. He received what he deserves, praise for being the creator and King.

So...

- he handed Job and the people around him over to Satan for torment.
- he, not Satan, was the one who had to give restitution (but only to one of the people who was tormented).
- in return, he got his ego stroked.

This does not cast God in a good light.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So nothing then.


So...

- he handed Job and the people around him over to Satan for torment.
- he, not Satan, was the one who had to give restitution (but only to one of the people who was tormented).
- in return, he got his ego stroked.

This does not cast God in a good light.

In your opinion and using your warped view of the situation perhaps.
Once you understand that none of us would exist apart from God's creating and maintenance of everything one would think you would stop judging God for allowing a world where fallen angels and people's free will causes suffering. This world is a test. It's not the final destination. As such it will never be a perfect place to live.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In your opinion and using your warped view of the situation perhaps.

What part do you disagree with? I thought I gave a fair interpretation of what you said.

Once you understand that none of us would exist apart from God's creating and maintenance of everything one would think you would stop judging God for allowing a world where fallen angels and people's free will causes suffering. This world is a test. It's not the final destination. As such it will never be a perfect place to live.

Just to be clear: I'm not judging God. I'm judging you.

I don't think that your god exists. OTOH, I think it says something about your morality - and the morality of people who make similar arguments - when you see nothing objectionable in God's actions in the hypothetical scenario offered by Job.

 

[PureX]

Bible Gateway passage: Job 1 - New English Translation

In this passage, Satan manages to talk God into giving him free reign to visit all sorts of evil on one family. There's no downside mentioned for Satan: nothing he would have to give up if he loses the bet.

Satan seems to have managed to get exactly what he wanted with no downside, while God suffers quite a bit (if he has empathy for Job and his family, that is).

This sure sounds to me like God was tricked by Satan. Satan saw an opportunity, jumped at it, and God took the bait.

Thoughts?

This story, like many in the Bible, was written with the intent that it be used to inspire contemplation, discussion, and even debate among the religious adherents. The males would gather together, read these stories, and discuss the inexplicable nature of their God. And at the time, this conscious grappling with the mystery of God was considered a most righteous use of a man's time and attention. These stories were not intended to give the readers pat 'answers' about God's will or nature. They were meant to make the reader think long and hard about what God's will and nature are, especially in relation to the circumstances of their own lives.

One of the reasons God was depicted as being so inexplicable, in those days, was to remind the readers that their God was absolute. And thereby beyond human comprehension.

 

[Wildswanderer]

don't think that your god exists. OTOH, I think it says something about your morality - and the morality of people who make similar arguments - when you see nothing objectionable in God's actions in the hypothetical scenario offered by Job.

Yes it means I understand that I don't understand everything about how an all powerful being runs the universe. Which is one of the main points of the book, that Job could not comprehend Gods job description.
Morality does not even exist objectively without God existing, BTW, so any moral judgement you make is just your limited human perspective that can change at any given moment.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes it means I understand that I don't understand everything about how an all powerful being runs the universe. Which is one of the main points of the book, that Job could not comprehend Gods job description.

I don't get that from the book. God's justification for his behaviour seems to more be "might makes right."

Morality does not even exist objectively without God existing, BTW, so any moral judgement you make is just your limited human perspective that can change at any given moment.

Nonsense, of course.

 

[Wildswanderer]

don't get that from the book. God's justification for his behaviour seems to more be "might makes right."

Did you actually read it? I don't recall that God never makes such a statement.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Did you actually read it? I don't recall that God never makes such a statement.

Read God's speech starting at Job 40:6. To argue that he can do as he pleases, God goes on about his power and great deeds. To argue against the idea that Job is in a position to judge God, God goes on about how much weaker Job is than God.

An excerpt:

8Would you indeed annul[k] my justice?
Would you declare me guilty so that you might be right?
9 Do you have an arm as powerful as God’s,[l]
and can you thunder with a voice like his?
10 Adorn yourself, then, with majesty and excellency,
and clothe yourself with glory and honor.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Read God's speech starting at Job 40:6. To argue that he can do as he pleases, God goes on about his power and great deeds. To argue against the idea that Job is in a position to judge God, God goes on about how much weaker Job is than God.

An excerpt:

8Would you indeed annul[k] my justice?
Would you declare me guilty so that you might be right?
9 Do you have an arm as powerful as God’s,[l]
and can you thunder with a voice like his?
10 Adorn yourself, then, with majesty and excellency,
and clothe yourself with glory and honor.

That's not saying might makes right. It's just pointing out the obvious. We aren't in any position to judge God. And we definitely aren't in any position to save ourselves.
BTW, many believe that the Leviathan in Job 41 is Satan.

 

[74x12]

Bible Gateway passage: Job 1 - New English Translation

In this passage, Satan manages to talk God into giving him free reign to visit all sorts of evil on one family. There's no downside mentioned for Satan: nothing he would have to give up if he loses the bet.

Satan seems to have managed to get exactly what he wanted with no downside, while God suffers quite a bit (if he has empathy for Job and his family, that is).

This sure sounds to me like God was tricked by Satan. Satan saw an opportunity, jumped at it, and God took the bait.

Thoughts?

Satan never got what he wanted because all he really wanted was for Job to "curse God to his face". (Job 1:11; Job 2:5) Which Job would not do. In fact he didn't curse God at all even though his wife suggested it. And yet Job was probably pretty mad at God. We see he does complain about what God is doing and even goes so far as to say that God is wrong and unfair but he would never curse God regardless. So Satan lost and never got what he wanted.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Satan never got what he wanted because all he really wanted was for Job to "curse God to his face". (Job 1:11; Job 2:5) Which Job would not do. In fact he didn't curse God at all even though his wife suggested it. And yet Job was probably pretty mad at God. We see he does complain about what God is doing and even goes so far as to say that God is wrong and unfair but he would never curse God regardless. So Satan lost and never got what he wanted.

Actually, it never says that is what Satan wanted. Satan in Job 1:11 and 2:5 is simply making predictions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's not saying might makes right. It's just pointing out the obvious. We aren't in any position to judge God.

Anyone with a knowledge of good and evil is in a position to judge God.

And according to Genesis, humanity has the ability to judge good and evil "as God." That was what got us kicked out of the Garden of Eden... no?

And we definitely aren't in any position to save ourselves.

What does that have to do with the issue?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Anyone with a knowledge of good and evil is in a position to judge God.

And according to Genesis, humanity has the ability to judge good and evil "as God." That was what got us kicked out of the Garden of Eden... no?


What does that have to do with the issue?

It has everything to do with the issue. We are ignorant little amoebas compared to the almighty, all knowing creator of everything. And good and evil are vague and meaningless conceptions without an ultimate authority.

 

[74x12]

Actually, it never says that is what Satan wanted. Satan in Job 1:11 and 2:5 is simply making predictions.

He complains that God put a hedge around Job so he(Satan) can't get to him. (Job 1:10) This implies that Satan wants to torture people like he did to Job. The fact that Job out of everyone on earth at the time was protected really seems to bother him. He was saying that Job was only righteous because of the hedge and all the blessings.

Once God let the hedge down; Satan was clearly doing everything possible to make him curse God. So I'm justified in saying he wanted it to happen.

I believe this is because Satan himself is already damned and he tempts humans to make himself feel better. Like "See, they did it too; I'm not so bad after all." Or he might even argue that God deserves it and so he(Satan) is right to hate God.

So when Job refused to sin; this was a big win for humanity (those who want to be righteous) and a loss for Satan because it proved Satan was bad.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

He complains that God put a hedge around Job so he(Satan) can't get to him. (Job 1:10) This implies that Satan wants to torture people like he did to Job. The fact that Job out of everyone on earth at the time was protected really seems to bother him. He was saying that Job was only righteous because of the hedge and all the blessings.

Once God let the hedge down; Satan was clearly doing everything possible to make him curse God. So I'm justified in saying he wanted it to happen.

I believe this is because Satan himself is already damned and he tempts humans to make himself feel better. Like "See, they did it too; I'm not so bad after all." Or he might even argue that God deserves it and so he(Satan) is right to hate God.

So when Job refused to sin; this was a big win for humanity (those who want to be righteous) and a loss for Satan because it proved Satan was bad.

Jews simply have an entirely different take. In Judaism, angels have no free will, so they cannot rebel. Satan works for God--he can only do those things which God specifically allows, as we see in Job. Ultimately, the buck stops with God, not Satan, for what happened to Job. Satan is the adversary and the accuser -- his job is to create situations where faith can be tempted, in order for free will to exist. It's a nasty job, but someone's gotta do it.