John 14:6

[Trailblazer]

Messengers are OK but with Jesus you get the word straight from the mouth of God. That should take precedence over any other message.

Baha'is believe the same about the Bab and Baha'u'llah, that they got communication straight from God. We also believe that Jesus got communication straight from God, but the difference is that Jesus never wrote anything down so there is no way to know what God said to Jesus. All we have is the New Testament, but that was written by men who did not even know Jesus decades after Jesus walked the earth so there is no way those can be the exact words of God to Jesus. By contrast, the Bab and Baha'u'llah wrote down what God revealed to them and we have the original scriptures, so we know exactly what was communicated.

The B men have not presented any validity to being messengers from God. They could claim to be messengers about God but sometimes the message is false.

What has Jesus presented? We cannot ever even know that Jesus did anything that is recorded in the New Testament, let alone that Jesus ever said anything that is attributed to Him in the New Testament.
By contrast we have a recorded history of the Baha'i Faith written by men who knew the Bab and Baha'u'llah and we have the original scriptures of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe the prodigal son came to a realization so I pray you will also.

I already did. I know who Jesus was, but I also know who the Bab and Baha'u'llah were.

 

[Dogknox20]

With Jesus we have a record of what He did and said that was written at least 30 years after His crucifixion by anonymous authors who most likely were not eye witnesses to the events they recorded.

The Quran was written and compiled during Muhammad’s lifetime.

With Bahá’u’lláh we have writings in His own hand or from His secretary.

So the Words attributed to Jesus are the least reliable in regards in transmission when compared to Muhammad or Bahá’u’lláh.

The content of what is recorded through the Gospel accounts, the Quran and the Baha’i writings is readily accessible to anyone who wishes to investigate the veracity of their respective claims.

I reply:
The words of Bahá’u’lláh were written in 1880! 1800 years after Jesus 1400 years after Muhammad!

 

[Dogknox20]

Baha'is believe the same about the Bab and Baha'u'llah, that they got communication straight from God. We also believe that Jesus got communication straight from God, but the difference is that Jesus never wrote anything down so there is no way to know what God said to Jesus. All we have is the New Testament, but that was written by men who did not even know Jesus decades after Jesus walked the earth so there is no way those can be the exact words of God to Jesus. By contrast, the Bab and Baha'u'llah wrote down what God revealed to them and we have the original scriptures, so we know exactly what was communicated.

What has Jesus presented? We cannot ever even know that Jesus did anything that is recorded in the New Testament, let alone that Jesus ever said anything that is attributed to Him in the New Testament.
By contrast we have a recorded history of the Baha'i Faith written by men who knew the Bab and Baha'u'llah and we have the original scriptures of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Bahá’u’lláh lived 1850n years AFTER Jesus!
Yes and we have what was written by Billy Graham also!
We have what was written by Martin Luther and Alexander Graham Bell we have what was written by Joseph Smith!

Jesus is God...Bahá’u’lláh is NOT!

 

[Dawnofhope]

I reply:
The words of Bahá’u’lláh were written in 1880! 1800 years after Jesus 1400 years after Muhammad!

The Words of Bahá’u’lláh were written between 1852 and 1892.

The works of Muhammad were recorded during His ministry between 610-632

The Gospel accounts were probably written by second or third generation Christians between 70 - 110 AD.

You may want to spend more time improving your mathematics and less time making statements you have no evidence to support.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Bahá’u’lláh lived 1850n years AFTER Jesus!
Yes and we have what was written by Billy Graham also!
We have what was written by Martin Luther and Alexander Graham Bell we have what was written by Joseph Smith!

Jesus is God...Bahá’u’lláh is NOT!

Is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses, Muhammad and Bahá’u’lláh also speak as God

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is God...Bahá’u’lláh is NOT!

Jesus is not God and Baha'u'llah is not God.
Jesus and Baha'u'llah were both Manifestations of God.

 

[Dogknox20]

The Words of Bahá’u’lláh were written between 1852 and 1892.

The works of Muhammad were recorded during His ministry between 610-632

The Gospel accounts were probably written by second or third generation Christians between 70 - 110 AD.

You may want to spend more time improving your mathematics and less time making statements you have no evidence to support.

The point is.... Bahá’u’lláh is "Johnny come late" he lacks credibility!

 

[Dogknox20]

Jesus is not God and Baha'u'llah is not God.
Jesus and Baha'u'llah were both Manifestations of God.

Trailblazer You have only your opinion... I have scriptures!

Jesus Appears to Thomas
John 20:24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Did you see it? “My Lord and my God!”

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

Trailblazer Did you see it? the Word was God....The Word became flesh

 

[Dogknox20]

Is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses, Muhammad and Bahá’u’lláh also speak as God

.
I reply... .
John 17: 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

adrian009 did you see it? the Word was God. ..The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us!

 

[Trailblazer]

The point is.... Bahá’u’lláh is "Johnny come late" he lacks credibility!

He doesn't lack credibility for me and others who have recognized Him and believe in Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer You have only your opinion... I have scriptures!

I have Bahai scriptures.
The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Jesus Appears to Thomas
John 20:24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Did you see it? “My Lord and my God!”

So what? Thomas addressed Jesus with respect and called Him Lord but that does not mean Jesus is God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

Trailblazer Did you see it? the Word was God....The Word became flesh

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made through God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God. Many people saw Jesus and that means that Jesus is not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[oldbadger]

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

Hi.....
The most simple explanation is that Apostle John was not there, did not see or hear Jesus at all.
He couldn't have been.......
He didn't even know about Disciple John's most exciting experiences, such as the Transfiguration.
He didn't know the real account.

 

[Wildswanderer]

An important controversy in Christianity is the interpretation of whether or not Jesus made exclusive claims where He envisaged no one could come to God except through Him, or whether a biblical theology should allow for the validity of other religions. An important verse used by Christian exclusivists to justify their theology is John 14:6 where Jesus speaks to His Disciples:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the best way to understand John 14:6 and why?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he meant no one could come onto Yawhah without going through him. Since that's what the verse actually says.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he meant no one could come onto Yawhah without going through him. Since that's what the verse actually says.

Jesus did not say: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man will EVER be able to come to the Father, but by me.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I believe that when Jesus said that it was true, and it remained true during the Christian dispensation, but not for all of time.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

 

[Dogknox20]

He doesn't lack credibility for me and others who have recognized Him and believe in Him.

Trailblazer Let me understand this.... "You believe in

I have Bahai scriptures.
The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

So what? Thomas addressed Jesus with respect and called Him Lord but that does not mean Jesus is God.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made through God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God. Many people saw Jesus and that means that Jesus is not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I reply:

They worship Jesus..... Worship is only for God!
Jesus knows Worship is only for God because he told Satan "Worship is only for God"! Jesus lets them worship him.. Never do you read Jesus stopping them from worshipping himself!

The Father "God" and Jesus are one!

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer Let me understand this.... "You believe in

I reply:

They worship Jesus..... Worship is only for God!
Jesus knows Worship is only for God because he told Satan "Worship is only for God"! Jesus lets them worship him.. Never do you read Jesus stopping them from worshipping himself!

Jesus "let" a lot of people do and believe a lot of things, but that does not mean He approved of them
No, Jesus told them not to worship Him, to worship only God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

The Father "God" and Jesus are one!

They are one, but that does not mean Jesus is God.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings are identical with the Will of God Himself. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same. The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God became flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The point is.... Bahá’u’lláh is "Johnny come late" he lacks credibility!

Jesus lacked credibility in the eyes of many too, especially in the first few hundred years before the Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. So the fact that you perceive Bahá’u’lláh as lacking credibility means as much to me as an atheist saying Jesus lacks credibility to you. What you and I believe doesn’t constitute proof of anything.

 

[Dawnofhope]

.
I reply... .
John 17: 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

adrian009 did you see it? the Word was God. ..The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us!

The Baha’i Revelation does not deny the Divinity of Christ, rather it affirms it.

Shoghi Effendi, an authorised interpreter of the Baha’i Revelation has stated:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 108-113

So as a Baha’i I seek to understand the nature of Christ’s Divinity as Christians have done throughout the centuries.

Logos (Christianity) - Wikipedia

It would be useful to consider how the word Logos was used around the time of Christ. Its useful to consider the Philo, a Hellenised Jew and philosopher understood the logos.

Philo wrote that God created and governed the world through mediators. Logos is the chief among them, the next to God, demiurge of the world. Logos is immaterial, an adequate image of God, his shadow, his firstborn son. Being the mind of the Eternal, Logos is imperishable. He is neither uncreated as God is, nor created as men are, but occupies a middle position. He has no autonomous power, only an entrusted one.

Philo - Wikipedia

So rather than being God incarnate the logos is viewed as an intermediary between God and man. This definition helps us understand and resolve the apparent contradiction between John’s prologue and the Biblical verses that reject the possibility of Jesus being God incarnate.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Jesus did not say: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man will EVER be able to come to the Father, but by me.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I believe that when Jesus said that it was true, and it remained true during the Christian dispensation, but not for all of time.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

So how do people come to God now?
I see no difference.