Jahia El Ti
Member
Many are called but few are chosen.
The only way you will ever end up on the new earth with the Father
is if Jesus choses you from among the many called.
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John 14:6
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
The only way you will ever end up on the new earth with the Father
is if Jesus choses you from among the many called.
Hence my giving up.
I was hopeful - despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary. I prefer to believe that all folks whom claim Christ have at least some shard of interest in Truth & following in His ways. Obviously that's not the case, but I went the extra 20 miles trying.
Hi @Jane.Doe and @Katzpur
I agree with katzpur.
I think it was good that you did not simply go to the anti-catholic or ex-catholic sites and simply cut and pasted criticisms about the "fact" that catholics worship of Mary in preference to Jesus or the worship of idols, or saint worship, etc in catholicism as evidence of false worship in Catholicism.
Once one is willing to simply get their data from "anti" or "ex" sites, the data is poor and the willingness to use bad data simply creates dueling trolling ad hominems rather than authentic and honest discussions. Kudos. For me, the discussion you had was not representative of differences in theology, but differences in personalities.
As an aside : I do think it would be an interesting observation of anti-social personalities to see individuals in a discussion who simply get their data from "anti" sites.
My family practice group had a contract with a prison and so I worked at a prison for five years and it was incredibly interesting what those sorts of personalities were willing to do to justify their attitudes and actions.
The psychology of some of the prisoners was simply fascinating to me.
Clear
I agree with katzpur.
I think it was good that you did not simply go to the anti-catholic or ex-catholic sites and simply cut and pasted criticisms about the "fact" that catholics worship of Mary in preference to Jesus or the worship of idols, or saint worship, etc in catholicism as evidence of false worship in Catholicism.
Once one is willing to simply get their data from "anti" or "ex" sites, the data is poor and the willingness to use bad data simply creates dueling trolling ad hominems rather than authentic and honest discussions. Kudos. For me, the discussion you had was not representative of differences in theology, but differences in personalities.
As an aside : I do think it would be an interesting observation of anti-social personalities to see individuals in a discussion who simply get their data from "anti" sites.
My family practice group had a contract with a prison and so I worked at a prison for five years and it was incredibly interesting what those sorts of personalities were willing to do to justify their attitudes and actions.
The psychology of some of the prisoners was simply fascinating to me.
Clear
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Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
Jane.Doe hope all is well...
I am trying to discuss what Mormons believe and what Christians believe! Where to start? That is the question.
Discussion goes both directions!
Jane.Doe all you have discussed (said) is your refusal to accept the beliefs of your church! I am immature & misrepresent Mormon belief? I said it many times... "The sources about Mormon religion are NOT...
Jane.Doe they are Not my own; they are as far as I can see convoluted teachings by the LDS church! OTHERWISE...
Jane.Doe otherwise why is it I can easily find so many websites posting similar stuff about your church!? I read what you believe then ask you about it...
Mormonism and Many Gods
Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a father god and that that father god also had a father god. This progression of gods continues to go back forever thus they believe in an infinite amount of gods. Does the Bible teach that there are other gods? No. In fact, the Book of Mormon even teaches there is only one God. Today were going to look at quotes from Mormon apostles and prophets concerning many gods and then were going to refute the idea that there are many gods with the scriptures. As an added bonus, we will also look at clear readings from the book of Mormon that say there is only one God.
Mormons prophets speak of many gods
“I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 6:474).
“How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods…” (Brigham Young , Journal of Discourses 7:333).
“Three separate personages — Father, Son, and Holy Ghost — comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods.” Bruce McConkie
The Pearl of Great Price says there are more than one God
Pearl of Great Price 4:1-2 “And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.”
As a side note, the Book of Abraham (part of the Pearl of Great Price) was claimed to have been translated from an ancient Egyptian papyri. This Egyptian papyrus has since been examined by scholars in the field of Egyptology and found that it had nothing to do with Abraham. The papyrus was part of a funeral text called “the Book of Breathing”. Once again, Joseph Smith has been found to be a fraud.
For more information: The Book of Abraham – Mormonism Research Ministry
Texts Mormons use to support their claim of many gods
Gen 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
This is a scripture that can just as easily be used to support the doctrine of the trinity. Genesis chapter one, does not contain a reference to many gods.
Psalms 82:1-8 “A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (2) How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. (3) Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. (4) Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. (5) They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. (6) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (7) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. (8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.”
Mormons often quote this passage in support of their belief that they can become gods. What’s interesting is that this passage does not represent Mormon doctrine at all. This passage calls the rulers gods even though they have not (as the Mormons believe) reached exaltation. Notice also that God is chastising these men. Why should we believe that they will be exalted to godhood?
The following verse is similar.
Joh 10:34 “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
It amazes me that LDS suggest that these scriptures support their belief that we can become gods. It’s clear neither passage supports Mormon theology as both instances are referring to people that are still alive and are not exalted god beings. Secondly, both instances involve Jews who are being chastised. We get no indication that these Jews were on the path to exaltation.
All of your posts testify that's not your intention.
Rather, your intention is to try to egotistically "inform" Mormons "what Mormons believe" and why you think it's wrong. Aka trolling. You have zero interest in true learning & conversation: listening and learning what Mormons actually believe, and then discussing things in an honest and respectful manner.
This very last post is yet another example of that.
Your behavior is a disgrace to yourself and Catholicism.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Clear Go to the anti-Catholic web sites ask your questions..... I look forward to it! Nothing they post can confuse or scare me.
FACT: Catholic' HORNOR MARY! Just as God commands... "Honor your father AND MOTHER"!
Jesus MUST honor Mary his mother, if Jesus did not honor Mary he would be sinning because he would be breaking God' command! IF...
Clear if Jesus sinned he would NOT be perfect he would not be God!
Jesus honors Mary his mother; Catholic' Honor Mary our mother.. Being IN the Holy Catholic Body of Jesus Mary is truly my mother! No Catholics worship Mary worship is ONLY for God!
God honors Mary in a way that only a God could...12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Hi @Dogknox20 ;
1) REGARDING INAPPROPRIATE WORSHIP IN CATHOLOCISM ACCORDING TO ANTI-CATHOLIC SITES
One major problem according the the anti-Catholic sites is not that you honor Mary, but that you believe in worshipping Mary ABOVE the worship of God and of Jesus. This is a problem.
Another major problem according to the anti-catholic sites is not that you simply HAVE graven images, but the problem is that you WORSHIP these idols MORE than God or Jesus.
Another major problem according to anti-catholic sites is not that you honor dead saints, but that you WORSHIP dead saints MORE than you worship God or Jesus.
The worship of people and idols and dead individuals MORE than God means you are not worshiping Jesus as real Christians do.
This is one of the reasons they speak of evangelizing and taking the gospel to Catholics.
2) REGARDING THE EVIL POLICIES OF THE CATHOLIC ORGANIZATION
Now that you are re-engaging the forum, In post #280 I have given you 25 examples of evil policies of the Catholic organization you asked for.
Do you think these evil policies concerning thievery, slavery and oppression of the innocent are policies that Jesus or the apostles would have generated or approved of?
3) REGARDING THE FALSE HISTORICAL CLAIM THAT THE APOSTLE PETER WAS A STANDING BISHOP OF ROME
I also pointed out that you claimed the apostle Peter was a bishop of rome but this is historically, incorrect.
Historically, we have no period appropriate historical evidence that the apostle Peter ever served as a standing bishop of the roman congregation. This was a "back claim" made by the roman congregation in an attempt to gain the appearance of authority it did not actually possess.
Clear
φιτωτζνεω
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Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
The point is.... Right from the start.... "Mormons claim to be Christian" Yet.. Christians reject what Mormons believe, Christians reject what the LDS teaches!
To make this point .. I point out the many beliefs that Christians reject as heretical!
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
Clear I hope all is well.. Clearly you missed my last post....
1) Catholic' HONOR Mary!
Worship is ONLY for God as the scriptures tell you, Catholics believe the words of God... You are forced to reject the scriptures!
Catholic's have ALWAYS honored Mary as the Scripture Prophesy tells you!
Luke 1:46
And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
Clear The scripture prophesy says.. From now on all generations will call me blessed this tells you... From the time this prophesy left Mary's mouth Catholics have ALWAYS honored Mary as blessed! NO OTHER..
Clear no other church can make this claim... The Prophesy tells you Catholic' are IN Mary's family! The prophesy tells all peoples that the Family of Mary is those IN HER GENERATIONS! All of her generational family tree honor her as blessed! Two thousand years ago this scripture prophesy was made ONLY the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church established by Jesus fullfilles this prophesy! You are NOT in Mary's family you reject her. IF..
Clear if you were IN Mary' family then Jesus would be your brother.. IF..
If Jesus was your brother then God would be your father!
Catholic's HONOR MARY.. Always have always have honored Mary as blessed! To say differently you MUST reject the scriptures and Mary's prophesy!
You commit Idolatry every time you receive "Symbolic Communion"! Communion the root word "Communicate!" To communicate with symbols is called IDOLITRY!
Idolatry is a grave sin!
God told the people of Moses to make images. Making images is NOT a sin worshipping them is! Otherwise the pictures on your living room wall is a sin! The pictures in your wallet are a sin!
Catholics have statues and Icons to help in remembering saints etc!
Dogknox20 said : "Clear Go to the anti-Catholic web sites ask your questions..... I look forward to it! Nothing they post can confuse or scare me." (post #287)
Dogknox20 said : Clear I hope all is well.. Clearly you missed my last post.... 1) Catholic' HONOR Mary! Worship is ONLY for God as the scriptures tell you, Catholics believe the words of God... You are forced to reject the scriptures! Catholic's have ALWAYS honored Mary as the Scripture Prophesy tells you!
@Dogknox20, clearly you missed the point of MY last post.
Your belief is not merely to "honor" Mary, but according to these ex and anti catholic sites, YOU WORSHIP MARY ABOVE JESUS. This is wrong.
Read what I wrote so that you can see what the anti and ex-catholics tell us your beliefs are :
I said :
One major problem according the the anti-Catholic sites is not that you honor Mary, but that you believe in worshipping Mary ABOVE the worship of God and of Jesus. This is a problem.
Another major problem according to the anti-catholic sites is not that you simply HAVE graven images, but the problem is that you WORSHIP these idols MORE than God or Jesus.
Another major problem according to anti-catholic sites is not that you honor dead saints, but that you WORSHIP dead saints MORE than you worship God or Jesus.
The worship of people and idols and dead individuals MORE than God means you are not worshiping Jesus as real Christians do.
This is one of the reasons they speak of evangelizing and taking the gospel to Catholics.
FACT : Catholics should NOT worship Mary more than Jesus and God as the anti and ex catholics explained to you.
FACT : Catholics should NOT worship idols and graven Images as the anti and ex catholics tell you. (idolatry is a sin)
FACT : Catholics should NOT worship dead saints as the anti and ex catholics tell you.
"Real Christians" reject these sorts of worship. Therefore, your religion is not Christian.
Clear
Dogknox20 said : Clear I hope all is well.. Clearly you missed my last post.... 1) Catholic' HONOR Mary! Worship is ONLY for God as the scriptures tell you, Catholics believe the words of God... You are forced to reject the scriptures! Catholic's have ALWAYS honored Mary as the Scripture Prophesy tells you!
@Dogknox20, clearly you missed the point of MY last post.
Your belief is not merely to "honor" Mary, but according to these ex and anti catholic sites, YOU WORSHIP MARY ABOVE JESUS. This is wrong.
Read what I wrote so that you can see what the anti and ex-catholics tell us your beliefs are :
I said :
One major problem according the the anti-Catholic sites is not that you honor Mary, but that you believe in worshipping Mary ABOVE the worship of God and of Jesus. This is a problem.
Another major problem according to the anti-catholic sites is not that you simply HAVE graven images, but the problem is that you WORSHIP these idols MORE than God or Jesus.
Another major problem according to anti-catholic sites is not that you honor dead saints, but that you WORSHIP dead saints MORE than you worship God or Jesus.
The worship of people and idols and dead individuals MORE than God means you are not worshiping Jesus as real Christians do.
This is one of the reasons they speak of evangelizing and taking the gospel to Catholics.
FACT : Catholics should NOT worship Mary more than Jesus and God as the anti and ex catholics explained to you.
FACT : Catholics should NOT worship idols and graven Images as the anti and ex catholics tell you. (idolatry is a sin)
FACT : Catholics should NOT worship dead saints as the anti and ex catholics tell you.
"Real Christians" reject these sorts of worship. Therefore, your religion is not Christian.
Clear
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I just have one question for @Dogknox20. Could you just tell us why it is so important to you to prove to everyone that Mormons aren't Christians? I'm just wondering why it matters to you to the extent it does.
@Dogknox20 I have a question for you:
For many years I worked at a state university. One day there was a group of folks on campus wielding large signs "Catholic repent- only Christ saves!". One lady ~20 years old approached me (rather was shouting at people in my direction) "Catholics worship Mary and follow the anti-Christ pope! They need to come unto the real Christ and become true Christians!"
I calmly & politely explained how Catholics are Christians whom accept Christ as their Lord & Savior, and don't worship Mary but rather venerate her.
"No!" she shouted back at me, "That's not what Catholicism really teaches- here read their own words proving it!" and shoved a bunch of outrageous anti-Catholic booklets at me.
"Umm... yes this may quote some Catholic persons, but it's not remotely accurate as to what Catholics actually believe. I have many good friends whom are Catholic and have studied the faith for many years."
"They don't know what Catholicism REALLY teaches!! It's not Christian- read their own words!"
"Excuse me, but have you ever even attended a Catholic Mass to see for yourself?"
"...." her silence said it all.
"YES!" one of her co-shouters chimed in, jumping to her rescue. "Last fall we took things to the devils themselves and witness of Christ right in front of Saint Ann's church!!!! Catholics need to know what Catholicism really teaches to they can be saved!!!"
Now, @Dogknox20 how many people do you think this lady's shouting resulted in Catholics leaving their faith to become an Evangelical like her?
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Of all the questions that have been asked so far, this is by far the best one yet.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Clear.. here's hoping all is well with you!
Yup you are right according to the Anti-Catholic sites "Catholic's worship Mary"
BUT.. Scriptures prove different.. for them to say Catholic' worship Mary they MUST reject the scriptures!
Facts remain... The Scripture Prophesy can only be fulfilled by the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church!.. There was NO other church when Mary made her prophesy!
Fact remains "Catholic's have always honored Mary as blessed"!
The angel Gabriel had no hesitation in greeting Mary with honor.
God said, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise him on the heel” (Gen. 3:15). Because Jesus is the seed or offspring of the woman, who must the woman be? The Blessed Virgin Mary.
Mary stood near the cross as Jesus said to her, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Gregory Nazianzen, and St. Cyril of Alexandria believed and declared Mary the Mother of God. St. Irenaeus said, “The Virgin Mary . . . being obedient to His word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies 5:19:1).
Clear you see the difference...? I can prove and justify the Catholic' honoring Mary the "Mother of God"! I can use scriptures and the early Church Fathers to prove the Catholics teaching of "Honoring Mary our Mother"! The Mormon and for that matter you can't!
The Anti-Catholic websites work for the Anti-Christ; if you are against the Body of Jesus then you are against God!
Catholic' love Mary
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Hello... Katzpur good to hear from you...why it is so important to me?
I have a few reasons.. First... Would you not want to know what it is that Christians do believe?! You THINK you are Christians yet without knowing exactly what it is that Christians do in fact believe! Does this not bother you, now that you do understand there is a big difference between Christian and the LDS!?
Katzpur Not knowing the truth should bother you; I know it would me!
Would you let your daughter go through life thinking there is no God? NO! You would correct her misunderstanding.. WHY? Because it would improve her morally and spiritually it would help her attain heaven ! The truth MUST be told!
Second.. How many people are pulled away from a potential relationship Jesus by these LDS salesmen coming to their door!? The Mormon teaching is NOT sound; it is presented to the unsuspecting victims all wrapped up with a pretty bow. Satan wants to be god. Satan wants to be worshiped. Satan wants to pull souls away from Jesus and truth!
There is one God always has been, always will be! Jesus is God equal to the Father because they are ONE! Jesus always was and always will be! There will never ever by many god' man will NOT be charged with his own planet as a god! Satan/Lucifer is NOT a brother of Jesus! etc etc
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
I reply... Not many.. would be pulled away... But maybe a few that don't know or understand their Catholic faith! The TRUTH is out there .. There is ONLY ONE TRUTH 2=2+4!
Jesus established only ONE CHURCH! What any anti- Catholic must do is prove that God failed to establish a Church; KNOWING that God is perfect and never fails!
LOOK.. Luke 14:28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?
Question.. "Did Jesus neglect to estimate to cost to build his Church before he started?!" You have to say "YES< Jesus failed" to believe what you believe! You have to say Joe Smith was right to say... "There are NO Christians left on earth"! Otherwise you run from the dark but you don't run you accept the teaching of a man over that of God!
Did Jesus build on ROCK or Sand?! What do you believe?!
What do the scriptures tell you? Did Jesus send the Holy Spirit to his Church to Guide her into all truth "FOREVER"! Did the Holy Spirit "GOD" lead Jesus' holy Bride into error!?
"Listen to the CHURCH or be treated as Pagan"!
Jane.Doe a Pagan is a person OUTSIDE of God' family! What CHURCH was Jesus talking about when he said "Listen to the Church"?!
etc
etc
Would you agree that her shouting at people “informing” people what their church “really teaches” doesn’t convince them anyone to join her church?
Hi @Dogknox20
Regarding those who use Anti-Catholic sites being correct that "Catholics worship Mary".
Dogknox20 admits : "Yup you are right according to the Anti-Catholic sites "Catholic's worship Mary"
Admitting that this is correct is a very unusual admission.
These ex-Catholics and anti-Catholics are not just pointing out that you believe in worshipping Mary more than Jesus or God.
FACT : They point out that it is wrong for Catholics to worship other things than God.
FACT : They point out that it is wrong for Catholics to worship other things MORE than God.
Your Catholic belief that Mary is to be worshipped in priority over Jesus and God is not according to Christianity.
Your Catholic belief that Idols are to be worshipped is not according to Christianity.
Your Catholic belief that dead saints are to be worshipped is not according to Christian belief.
The sacred texts tell us repeatedly that these things are wrong, even evil.
One of the clearest commandments is "thou shalt have no other Gods before me".
You even ADMIT in post #287 that "Worship is ONLY for God..." (Dogknox20, post #287)
Dogknox20, Since you believe in worshipping these things in preference to God and in opposition to Christian principles, how can you then call yourself a Christian?
Clear
φιτωνεσεω
Regarding those who use Anti-Catholic sites being correct that "Catholics worship Mary".
Dogknox20 admits : "Yup you are right according to the Anti-Catholic sites "Catholic's worship Mary"
Admitting that this is correct is a very unusual admission.
These ex-Catholics and anti-Catholics are not just pointing out that you believe in worshipping Mary more than Jesus or God.
FACT : They point out that it is wrong for Catholics to worship other things than God.
FACT : They point out that it is wrong for Catholics to worship other things MORE than God.
Your Catholic belief that Mary is to be worshipped in priority over Jesus and God is not according to Christianity.
Your Catholic belief that Idols are to be worshipped is not according to Christianity.
Your Catholic belief that dead saints are to be worshipped is not according to Christian belief.
The sacred texts tell us repeatedly that these things are wrong, even evil.
One of the clearest commandments is "thou shalt have no other Gods before me".
You even ADMIT in post #287 that "Worship is ONLY for God..." (Dogknox20, post #287)
Dogknox20, Since you believe in worshipping these things in preference to God and in opposition to Christian principles, how can you then call yourself a Christian?
Clear
φιτωνεσεω
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Actually, labels don't matter in the slightest to me, Dogknox. Feel free to call me whatever your hateful little mind wants to.
I see. Well, I do know the truth about what I believe, and that's all that really matters to me. As a matter of fact, I am the world's #1 authority on what I believe.
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